Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer

[Graffight]

Here's an interesting post i just read from John Shore. He has some really good perspective on Christianity, I agree with a lot of what he says. Enjoy



Here's an interesting post by John Shore

Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer
In Atheists, Christianity, God, Religion on December 14, 2008 at 12:12 am

It’s certainly no challenge for a rationalist/atheist to dismiss out of hand those who believe in God.

The Christian, scoffs the rationalist, is weak-willed: superstitious, deaf to logic, incapable of independent thought, intellectually and even morally lazy.

Okay. We believers can take that sort of criticism. We can (or certainly should) even acknowledge the ways in which we too often facilitate non-believers reaching such conclusions about us.

But, to be fair, rationalists and atheists should consider the validity of the believer’s way. A clear context in which to understand the whole of one’s life, as opposed to just that realm of it apprehensible to the rational mind, is a beautiful thing.

The logical mind can do and cover a lot—but not all. Before love, for instance, it can only surrender in baffled awe.

The bottom line is that when the white knight of the rational mind reaches the dense forest of human emotion, it must pull its horse up short, turn around, and trot back home. It has no business inside that forest; a few trees in renders it lost and helpless.

For all his shortcomings, the believer possesses one thing the non-believer lacks: a clear, dependable context by which to understand, process, and experience all of his emotions. That’s not nothing.

 

[DarkWizard12]

*DarkWizard12 Subscribes to this thread.

 

[Ikari]

It's pretty pretentious first off to make some claim as if the whole of atheists/rationalists have a holier-than-thou attitude towards theists. Secondly, that we are incapable of understanding with or dealing with emotions.

 

[scourge99]

Here's an interesting post i just read from John Shore. He has some really good perspective on Christianity, I agree with a lot of what he says. Enjoy



Here's an interesting post by John Shore

The problem is most believers don't care to debate, they just want you to believe without showing a clear path of reason to believe.

On the contrary, most atheists will debate WHY one should not believe with specific reasoning.

 

[Graffight]

The problem is most believers don't care to debate, they just want you to believe without showing a clear path of reason to believe.

On the contrary, most atheists will debate WHY one should not believe with specific reasoning.

I think the thing with this is that believers find this to be a non "debatable" issue. belief is belief(not sure if that's a "problem" or not)...for me to "debate" with you about who's idea is correct would be (to quote an analogy used by a commenter on John's Blog) like trying to debate what color is with a blind man who never experienced it. further than that most Christians see it as it would be more like debating color with someone who's only reason for not seeing color is because they never opened their eyes. Debating one's belief in God is like debating one's emotions.

As a Christian all i can do is teach you, and try to show you where you can find the answers to your questions yourself. What happens with most non believers is that they look for reasons not to believe and seek information with closed eyes, a closed mind and a closed heart thus a debate with one is an exercise in futility.

 

[Graffight]

It's pretty pretentious first off to make some claim as if the whole of atheists/rationalists have a holier-than-thou attitude towards theists. Secondly, that we are incapable of understanding with or dealing with emotions.

Here's the reply John had for that question.

J.J. I’m of course not asserting the absurdity that non-believers don’t have or appreciate emotions. I’m only saying that any God-based belief system that addresses the entirety of the human experience–including emotions, which are the most inexplicable part of the human experience–can be a comfort and even intellectual touchstone (or at any rate a very valuabe life tool) for the believer that the non-believer simply lacks. A Christian experiences love, and understands it as reflective of God’s love. A Christian grieves, and is comforted by God. He faces death himself, and is assured of God’s presence with him. In all those sorts of hyper-dense emotions, the atheist is on his own, while the believer is not. Hence the old saying about there being no atheists in foxholes.

The thing i hear so much of from atheists is how rationale and logic are missing from Religion simply because all beliefs and decisions are not made with these two thought processes. Atheists assert that because there is no "proof" then said thing cannot exist. I think what this guy is offering is that there are more faculties humans have available to them for processing information and making decisions than just logic and reason. I personally believe that i should have all of my faculties at the ready when i think, and not throw some out because they don't make sense in said situation, and i believe God gives me a better ground for understanding my emotions than i do on my own. Without God love is very hard to explain, especially for someone who has not experienced it...All Christians have God's love, and guide for how to Love in the Bible, this is something that the Atheist does not possess in the same capacity, and must rely on other people to build their emotional foundation on, and depending on those people one foundation can be totally different than another.

 

[Kernel Sanders]

In what ways do western religions such as Christianity help to understand emotions? I could see that argument being applied to Buddhism perhaps, but in my years in the Church I never encountered any sort of explanation of human emotions

 

[First Thought]

John Shore talks about religious people having God with them through tough times. I guess the difference is that certain believers need that knowledge.

When in tough times, I am far from alone. I have erected a strong support system of family and friends who are there for me when I need consolation.

 

[MrFungus420]

Re: Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer

I think the thing with this is that believers find this to be a non "debatable" issue. belief is belief(not sure if that's a "problem" or not)...for me to "debate" with you about who's idea is correct would be (to quote an analogy used by a commenter on John's Blog) like trying to debate what color is with a blind man who never experienced it. further than that most Christians see it as it would be more like debating color with someone who's only reason for not seeing color is because they never opened their eyes. Debating one's belief in God is like debating one's emotions.

The biggest difference, of course, is that people don't expect others to live according to their emotions. People don't tell others, "Your emotions are wrong, and you will be punished for all of eternity because your emotions are not my emotions".

As a Christian all i can do is teach you, and try to show you where you can find the answers to your questions yourself.

Fine. Show us facts and evidence.

Don't point us to a book of mythology.

What happens with most non believers is that they look for reasons not to believe and seek information with closed eyes, a closed mind and a closed heart thus a debate with one is an exercise in futility.

Evidence.

That's all that you need.

Appealing to emotion doesn't work. Arguments from incredulity don't work. And personal insults (closed mind, closed heart, closed eyes) don't work.

As for looking for reasons not to believe, it is amazing that you know how all non-believers think :roll:

Like I said, evidence. I couldn't even begin to tell you how many times a believer has tried to convince me, but was totally and completely unable to provide ANY evidence to support their claims. I could, however, easily tell you how many times a believer has backed up their claims with evidence: 0.

As for the article in the OP, pure arrogance.

 

[MrFungus420]

Re: Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer

All Christians have God's love, and guide for how to Love in the Bible,

I'm going to address this claim.

How does the Bible teach us to love?

If your children don't love you, you should make a place of torture for them and send them there to be tortured for not loving you.

If your children do not act how you want them to, you are justified in killing them.

If you want your children to live somewhere, then you can commit genocide to give them that land.

You can have your child killed to make up for the crime of a distant relative.

All of these are examples of "God's love" in the Bible.

 

[Graffight]

I'm going to address this claim.

]How does the Bible teach us to love?

The bible teaches us to love the way Jesus Loved...

If your children don't love you, you should make a place of torture for them and send them there to be tortured for not loving you.

If your children do not act how you want them to, you are justified in killing them.

I'm not an expert on the bible, but this is old testament law. These rules are nullified by Jesus' law. In addition many of these laws existed, but were dramatic changes from what the laws and rules used to be. You used to be able to kill your children for looking at you wrong, but the new law required you to have a hearing before killing your child/wife for doing something they were not supposed to do, and i believe that there are no known historical records of any wife or child being killed this way under the law...

If you want your children to live somewhere, then you can commit genocide to give them that land.

This one would take quite a while to explain, but the short answer is that God had his chosen people...if you ask why one group of people were chosen i cannot answer that, i'm not an expert and i haven't done the research on that yet...But God led his chosen people from place to place he said people...don't do these things that the people of the land are doing or else i'll give you over to their hands....after a great many years of his people being oppressed and tortured and mistreated he said i forgive you and i will give your enemies over to you in a way that you will know that i am God...this happened over and over and over again...God told his people to kill everyone who did not follow the law because those people were not willing to change and he did not want those people's ideology to infect his chosen...This all stopped in the new testament, after Jesus was born not one instance of this happened again, because All people were from that time forward God's chosen people through the blood of Jesus Christ.

You can have your child killed to make up for the crime of a distant relative.

Again old testament law...not the law we follow as Christians...Christian means to be Christ like...Christ did not do these things.

All of these are examples of "God's love" in the Bible.

No, Jesus' Life is the example of God's love in the bible. God sent his own son to live a perfect life and be tortured and killed in order to allow all people to come to God instead of just his "chosen"

 

[First Thought]

The bible teaches us to love the way Jesus Loved...

I'm not an expert on the bible, but this is old testament law. These rules are nullified by Jesus' law. In addition many of these laws existed, but were dramatic changes from what the laws and rules used to be. You used to be able to kill your children for looking at you wrong, but the new law required you to have a hearing before killing your child/wife for doing something they were not supposed to do, and i believe that there are no known historical records of any wife or child being killed this way under the law...

Here are some Jesus quotes for you... he sounds like a great guy :roll::

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 10:35-36 I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace: I came not to send peace but a sword.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Here are some Jesus quotes for you... he sounds like a great guy :roll::

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 10:35-36 I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace: I came not to send peace but a sword.

So, Jesus doesn't like people who hate their mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters...what a coincedence, me neither. :roll:

 

[scourge99]

Here are some Jesus quotes for you... he sounds like a great guy :roll::

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 10:35-36 I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace: I came not to send peace but a sword.

Let's not forget his drunken rampage through the temple with a bullwhip. :doh:

Jesus was just trying to "teach" people. :roll: right....

 

[wyoguy]

Wowzers Shaggy.... this might just be the most disjointed and ignorance filled thread yet. I'm betting that Old Man Skreally, the lighthouse keeper, is at the root of all this.

Time to face the facts, fellow Christians....

The anti-Christians are way more adept at this game than we.

They have dedicated hours upon hours of study to learn just enough scripture to refute it. How are you going to argue against logic like that? I can't.

 

[wyoguy]

Let's not forget his drunken rampage through the temple with a bullwhip. :doh:

Jesus was just trying to "teach" people. :roll: right....

Slander.
Back it up.

 

[obvious Child]

As a Christian all i can do is teach you, and try to show you where you can find the answers to your questions yourself. What happens with most non believers is that they look for reasons not to believe and seek information with closed eyes, a closed mind and a closed heart thus a debate with one is an exercise in futility.

Come again? What reason exists to believe? There is no evidence for a deity or set of deities. How can someone look for reasons not to believe when there are no hard reasons TO believe?

There is no good reason to believe in your God over any other or any God for that matter. Belief effectively comes down to believing because you want to believe.

As for the closed eyes and closed minds, care to discuss literal creationists who go about their lives denying the very fabric of society in which they live?

 

[obvious Child]

Wowzers Shaggy.... this might just be the most disjointed and ignorance filled thread yet.

I find it incredibly disturbing that you consider questions regarding potential problems in your belief system is to be disjointed and ignorant.

The anti-Christians are way more adept at this game than we.

To be more accurate, it's not just your belief. It's faith in general.

 

[1069]

So, Jesus doesn't like people who hate their mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters...what a coincedence, me neither. :roll:

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Actually, he seems to be saying that he only wants to hang out with folks who hate their mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters, wives and children- not to mention, themselves.
There is, I wouldn't be surprised to learn, some story behind this.

 

[Unrein]

For all his shortcomings, the believer possesses one thing the non-believer lacks: a clear, dependable context by which to understand, process, and experience all of his emotions. That’s not nothing.

No one has a 'clear, dependable context by which to understand, process, and experience all of his emotions.' Emotions are reactions to the unknown, the unprocessed and misunderstood; no amount of belief in fairy tales will give you a better handle on them than those who lack such belief.

Also, is this guy reffering to "rationalists" as in the philosophical position (Descates, Kant, etc.) or is he simply reffering to people who consider themselves 'rational'?

 

[DarkWizard12]

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Actually, he seems to be saying that he only wants to hang out with folks who hate their mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters, wives and children- not to mention, themselves.
There is, I wouldn't be surprised to learn, some story behind this.

Ah, sorry, brainfart.

Here is the answer. I actually researched this!

He said that a person’s enemies would be within their own family. Some will even think that they’re doing a God service by challenging you ...

John 16:2
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Jesus explains that He didn’t come to bring peace on earth, but rather, division. The father against the son, and the mother against the daughter.

Luke 12:53
The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Why? To prove who is devoted to Him.

Jesus said that when things happen to us because of our belief in Him, we’re blessed, and we’ll be rewarded in Heaven.

Matthew 5:11-12
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Jesus said that if we love our father or mother more than Him, we’re not worthy of Him.

Matthew 10:37
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Luke words this a little differently, saying that if we don’t hate our mother, father, wife, children, brothers and sisters and our own life also, we can’t be His disciples.

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple

Whoa! Hate is a pretty strong word, you may be thinking, and just the opposite of what Jesus taught when He said, (Matthew 19:19) Honor your father and mother, and LOVE your neighbor as yourself. What Jesus was doing when He said those things, was making a point, that He doesn’t want a bunch of followers who are half heartedly loyal, He wants total devotion. That doesn’t mean that everyone who follows Christ should abandon their family and friends or quit their job (although in some instances, it may be necessary), but rather, don’t ever let them become your priority over Him. And that hate part . . . that’s referring to the worldly things about them, not their righteous qualities.

Another thing Jesus said, is that there is nobody that has left house or family or homes for His sake and the Gospel’s, that wont receive a hundred times as much in the world to come

Mark 10:29
Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's.

Remember that Jesus said that those who do the will of His Father ARE HIS mother and brother and sister,

Matthew 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in Heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Defending Your Faith

 

[First Thought]

So, Jesus doesn't like people who hate their mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters...what a coincedence, me neither. :roll:

Did you somehow misunderstand those verses?

 

[scourge99]

Slander.
Back it up.

BibleGateway.com - Passage*Lookup: John 2;

Jesus Clears the Temple

12After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.

13When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"

BibleGateway.com - Passage*Lookup: John 2;

And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

16And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

This is the part where you attempt to justify it.....:lol:

 

[Graffight]

BibleGateway.com - Passage*Lookup: John 2;



BibleGateway.com - Passage*Lookup: John 2;


This is the part where you attempt to justify it.....:lol:

nobody refuted that he did that...it's the drunken part i question...

 

[Graffight]

The biggest difference, of course, is that people don't expect others to live according to their emotions. People don't tell others, "Your emotions are wrong, and you will be punished for all of eternity because your emotions are not my emotions".

Nowhere in the bible does it say you will be sent to hell for what you do, or how you feel...One only gets to heaven by believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins.

Fine.

Don't point us to a book of mythology.Show us facts and evidence.


Evidence.

That's all that you need.

Dude the only evidence i can show you is my own life, because every other piece of evidence is in the bible and the lives of others. I can tell you for a fact that i should not be where i am, nor have what i have and only a God could have made it happen for me....The last five years of my life I've gone from making less than 7$ an hour working at CVS to a salary above the national average with no college education and a less than 1 point GPA coming out of high school and 0 work ethic...while living in chicago i could have been shot twice...you cannot show me any evidence that there is NOT a God after the things that i have been through...Through God i can truly say that anything is possible...anything else you have to see for yourself, it's not my job to find evidence for you.

Appealing to emotion doesn't work. Arguments from incredulity don't work. And personal insults (closed mind, closed heart, closed eyes) don't work.

wow man...you think those were personal insults...no i can tell when people read the bible with a closed mind, closed heart and closed eyes when whey quote scripture out of context, and have done no research to back up what they quote.

As for looking for reasons not to believe, it is amazing that you know how all non-believers think :roll:

I don't know what anyone thinks...this is an observation.

Like I said, evidence. I couldn't even begin to tell you how many times a believer has tried to convince me, but was totally and completely unable to provide ANY evidence to support their claims. I could, however, easily tell you how many times a believer has backed up their claims with evidence: 0.

As for the article in the OP, pure arrogance.

Like i said...the evidence is my life, and the lives of many believers.