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Quick question on Anti-Bullying Week

Republic_Of_Public

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Just another gimmick isn't it? Just like the idea of marching louts to cashpoints to pay on-the-spot fines!


It's a wonderful concept but you know people in charge just can't be trusted. The schools were politically-correct enough when I was there 15-25 years ago but even then the teachers were institutionally useless.

At one point I had a weight problem and unsurprisingly I'd get grief for it. Some kids got a bit violent but even then nothing really got done about it, despite the jellynecked trendy teachers urging me to 'leave it to us to sort out'.

But after I finally snapped and gave some recurrent bullies a taste of their own torment, the treacherous head of year had me on the carpet for aggressive behaviour!

And now with Government initiatives to 'understand' and protect bullies, with schools urged not to even expel scumbag kids any more, why shouldn't we have reason to believe that things have only got worse?


(But I suppose the countless extra kids now suffering from bullies will learn extra early that our pillars of community and trendy politicians are either useless, misguided or rotten enough to be unable to deliver the promised utopia. At least that's something.)




BBC News | Education | Primary school bullying 'on increase'

Bullying is on the increase, say young people

Schools fined for expelling violent pupils - Telegraph

Mother banned from school for confronting her son's bully | Mail Online

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-447743/Classroom-thugs-told-Disrupt-school-win-iPod.html
 
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alexa

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Just another gimmick isn't it? Just like the idea of marching louts to cashpoints to pay on-the-spot fines!


It's a wonderful concept but you know people in charge just can't be trusted. The schools were politically-correct enough when I was there 15-25 years ago but even then the teachers were institutionally useless.

At one point I had a weight problem and unsurprisingly I'd get grief for it. Some kids got a bit violent but even then nothing really got done about it, despite the jellynecked trendy teachers urging me to 'leave it to us to sort out'.

But after I finally snapped and gave some recurrent bullies a taste of their own torment, the verminous head of year had me on the carpet for aggressive behaviour!

And now with Government initiatives to 'understand' and protect bullies, with schools urged not to even expel scumbag kids any more, why shouldn't we have reason to believe that things have only got worse?


(But I suppose the countless extra kids now suffering from bullies will learn extra early that our pillars of community and trendy politicians are either useless, misguided or rotten enough to be unable to deliver the promised utopia. At least that's something.)




BBC News | Education | Primary school bullying 'on increase'

Bullying is on the increase, say young people

Schools fined for expelling violent pupils - Telegraph

Mother banned from school for confronting her son's bully | Mail Online

Classroom thugs told: Disrupt school and win an iPod! | Mail Online
Bullying is wrong so it is right to have awareness of it.

When my daughter was being bullied for being English when we moved to Scotland, I told her just to say to her 'Go away you big bully'. She was only 7.

The girl bullying her was in the class above and when she did eventually do exactly what I suggested, the other members of her class who previously had done nothing, joined in and said 'Yes, go away you big bully.'

In this case that was sufficient and she was never bullied again.

Bullys are also people with problems and when my daughter became friends with this girl several years later she discovered that this was indeed the case. There were serious problems at home.

I think we have still a long way to go to get this right. I have heard of children committing suicide when the parents had previously told the school about the bullying and nothing was done.

Additionally my best friends son started playing truant and even carrying a knife when he was suffering bullying and his Mum could get no help from the school. She eventually moved out of London and although he is fine and doing well now, it did take time him time to get over it.

I don't think it is a gimmick. I think it is a serious issue which needs on going work and hence weeks to remember to work on it and discuss it are still necessary.
 

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I know most kids play at being the bully from time to time. Even I did at one point and would have been cruising for a bruising if I'd have gone much further. (Actually, I did get a whack once and I can't deny it sorted my bullying problem! I thought 'Wow, have I hurt this bloke that bad?')

But there's a world of difference between basically good kids pushing the boundaries and the hardcore nasties, hence your contrasting stories. My experiences, both as brief perpetrator and longer-term victim, pale into insignificance now.

But what I'm saying is that whilst a few softly-softly measures are likely to work with those kids needing just a prod back to the straight and narrow, the more feral ones see it as weakness if the stronger punishments are done away with.

One size definitely does not fit all.

I'm not saying the issue is a gimmick, just the sticking plaster over the septic wound.
 
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alexa

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I know most kids play at being the bully from time to time. Even I did at one point and would have been cruising for a bruising if I'd have gone much further. (Actually, I did get a whack once and I can't deny it sorted my bullying problem! I thought 'Wow, have I hurt this bloke that bad?')

But there's a world of difference between basically good kids pushing the boundaries and the hardcore nasties, hence your contrasting stories.

But what I'm saying is that whilst a few softly-softly measures are likely to work with those kids needing just a prod back to the straight and narrow, the more feral ones see it as weakness if the stronger punishments are done away with.

One size definitely does not fit all.

I'm not saying the issue is a gimmick, just the sticking plaster over the septic wound.
I do agree, one size fits all never really works because we are all different.

I doubt how much punishments would help the more 'feral' ones as I imagine they are already suffering some 'punishment' already, most likely in the form of beatings and humiliations.

It is a really tricky one.

I guess it begins with everyone, that is both pupils and teachers being clear about what bullying is and then having effective policies surrounding it and schools taking the time to properly investigate and deal with each case on it's own merits.

That takes money but it could be money well spent.

I found this paper http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/publications/Downloads/bullying_wdf48084.pdf
 

Republic_Of_Public

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"I doubt how much punishments would help the more 'feral' ones as I imagine they are already suffering some 'punishment' already, most likely in the form of beatings and humiliations."

Who by? Name these avengers!


That's just where the problem lies as the political establishment have drugged themselves on that logic, hence the absurdity of current legislation and school rules.

This bizarre assumption that hurt feelings of really bad kids can be used to nullify the need for strong punishment is the very weakness they exploit. I know from experience that really bad kids think that their behaviour can't be all that bad if all they receive for their terror campaigns is a lecture in the headmaster's room. They don't even get guaranteed expulsion now, as I said. What other reaction can a victim have but to close his eyes and wait for the storm to finish?

You can still understand bullies without sympathy. On one level a lot can be gained from caning or birching the little swines. When all else failed, corporal punishment often worked. It's harsh but it speaks their language and the fact that youth crime rose when it was discontinued speaks for itself.

(Though if I was bringing back the cane I would order it be used only in the more extreme circumstances. I for one wouldn't allow dyslexic kids to be whacked again for example.)

At the same time as the louts are re-discovering the boundaries and saving the rest of the kids, then you can look at their backgrounds and find any problems there and not before. Lots of kids may be being abused by their parents for example, but most don't turn out like those warped lowlifes. And you can't just let them get away with it.
 
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alexa

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If you go back to my daughter though. She was being really hurt. Thiis older girl and her friends were following her around calling her names because she was apparently English and her new friends were just allowing this to go on. In addition they were insulting her cloths and even pushing her when they found her alone in the toilet.

I had a very unhappy girl on my hands.

I just knew, as I think you do, that you need to stand up to bully's.

But even so it might not have worked. What worked was her having the courage to stand up to them and that did take courage but also the additional happenings which she did not expect, that the other girls joined in with her and supported her.

If her classmates had not supported her, it might not have worked.

She was later to learn that these girls would bully any of them they could get their hands on.

Problems really seem to start either if the bullied person is unable to stand up for herself or if others join in and gang up on the bullied person.
 

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They're at the start of things at that age. I think younger kids can be saved with some protection for the victim and a few stiff words and a push against the bullies without need for anything more.

When they're that age things are less entrenched. If there'll be any real victories with the anti-bullying campaign it will probably be in the primary schools.

We need a joined-up government with no mixed messages and sanctions more in tune with the perspective of the bullies rather than the politicians, teachers or social workers.

Yes, when I bullied that kid I also got ticked off by the staff. But when I also stood up to bullies myself I still got punished. And I can say that that's endemic. And on my level you can't get more mixed a message than that.
 
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alexa

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"I doubt how much punishments would help the more 'feral' ones as I imagine they are already suffering some 'punishment' already, most likely in the form of beatings and humiliations."

Who by? Name these avengers!
parents, street gangs.


That's just where the problem lies as the political establishment have drugged themselves on that logic, hence the absurdity of current legislation and school rules.


I totally disagree. I think there are problems but I don't think they come from where you think they come from.

My brother's first job was in a school where they caned children. Having been mentally and physically scarred by this happening to himself as a child he organised STOP and managed to get Corporal punishment stopped in schools.


This bizarre assumption that hurt feelings of really bad kids can be used to nullify the need for strong punishment is the very weakness they exploit. I know from experience that really bad kids think that their behaviour can't be all that bad if all they receive for their terror campaigns is a lecture in the headmaster's room. They don't even get guaranteed expulsion now, as I said. What other reaction can a victim have but to close his eyes and wait for the storm to finish?

This is not talking about hurt feelings or bad kids but rather damaged kids. The objective is to bring them also back to health. The most common punishment nowadays, suspension from school doesn't do that.

I agree that we have not resolved the issue but a person who has already been so traumatised that they feel no empathy for others will not respond to more of the same, no matter where it comes from.

Where it is appropriate, as a first response to nip offences in the bud a punishment is appropriate. Children should know in advance that there will be consequences if they are found engaging in certain behaviours.

However when investigating serious bullying, then appropriate measures must be taken. They are unlikely to be in the form of simply a punishment. They would be best to be unique to each child's situation.

The first response however should always be the safety, protection and well being of the child who has reported the bullying.



At the same time as the louts are re-discovering the boundaries and saving the rest of the kids, then you can look at their backgrounds and find any problems there and not before. Lots of kids may be being abused by their parents for example, but most don't turn out like those warped lowlifes. And you can't just let them get away with it.
There are always a multitude of variables which determine how a person will react. These include whether there is anyone else who can help to give them some positive self esteem, whether they live in areas where there are gangs, whether there is any activity which they can do and feel really good at and so on. In addition some of these repressed non low lives eventually let it all out when they are adults and do things like charge into schools shooting children or even join far right political parties or some such thing. :shock:;) We ignore psychology, we take the consequences.
 

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I have no doubt we can talk about this all day. But I can wait an eternity for the subject of personal responsibility to come up, until I mention it.

Ooo, you can't punish Smasher Simpkins Mr headmaster, because he's got Munchybiscuits Syndrome By Proxy, or gets his head kicked in by other undesirables. It's not because he's some villainous little lout who knows full well setting fire to the maths teacher is wrong!


Is no bully responsible for his/her actions any more? Is it always the case to scrabble round for some kind of external factor to ring-fence serious bullies off from the consequences they should suffer? Hell, in your world the 'softer' bullies get worse stigma than the real hardcore louts, more of whom just do it for kicks than liberals care to admit. (Indeed, yobs who lived on my street didn't come from dysfunctional families or suffered in any way. They were just 'mayhem on the football terraces' vermin and such.)

Workshops only work for some, those who want to rehabilitate. For others, the softly-softly is just wasted, hence the need for high security jails until the end of time. You've just got to punish those who don't want to get back to the straight and narrow, or those who aren't ready yet. And if they're too boneheaded to learn from either a 'quiet chat' or the harder stuff, then you just keep them out of the way of their victims for as long as it takes. As you say, victims come first.

I think I at least indicated earlier that normal kids like your brother shouldn't have gotten the cane. Especially where sadistic teachers may have been involved. But as I say, the difference between the brutal schoolyard thugs and the ordinary kids puffing themselves up a bit or just getting things wrong is stark. The cane should be returned but used in context and very rarely.

By all means campaign to stop child abuse and street gangs. They're a danger to society as a whole, not just to the rats the older louts breed. It's up to a responsible government to lock up the villains and bullying parents and hold the 'hoody' generation in line. Lengthy jail terms should be the first step to rehab', otherwise more of them will (and do) feel like they've 'gotten off lightly'.

So... if you can't cane them, isolate them, expel them or ridicule them, what can you do? What if the other kids 'standing up' fails?
 
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They're at the start of things at that age. I think younger kids can be saved with some protection for the victim and a few stiff words and a push against the bullies without need for anything more.

When they're that age things are less entrenched. If there'll be any real victories with the anti-bullying campaign it will probably be in the primary schools.

We need a joined-up government with no mixed messages and sanctions more in tune with the perspective of the bullies rather than the politicians, teachers or social workers.

Yes, when I bullied that kid I also got ticked off by the staff. But when I also stood up to bullies myself I still got punished. And I can say that that's endemic. And on my level you can't get more mixed a message than that.

I agree that primary school is the place to start and where children should be taught how they are expected to behave. Children should learn about bullying that it is not acceptable, given advice on how to deal with and that they can come to a member of staff if they have difficulties.

With regard to you getting blamed for what you did. Well yes you did because you said you were aggressive and you were caught. The bullies were not. The school really had no option.

Did you complain to the staff about the bullying beforehand? Did the bullies get seen by the staff? I think that is as you say a common problem, but if you stopped the bullying, possibly one worth the punishment.

From what I see it is only since 1999 that schools have had to have an anti bullying policy so you say you were at school 15-25 years ago. That sounds like before they happened.

We have though found something we agree on. We both don't like bullying.
 

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With regard to you getting blamed for what you did. Well yes you did because you said you were aggressive and you were caught. The bullies were not. The school really had no option.

Did you complain to the staff about the bullying beforehand?
I was retaliating at the end of my rope. The bullies were aggressive. I told the teachers (as I said), but the bullying did not stop.

The school did have options. In those days anyway there was at least islolation, expulsion or detentions by the hundredweight to keep bullies out of the way. They failed to utilise all the options and any they may have tried obviously failed.

Once again, it's blame the victim time from the Liberal brigade. I'm not a sheep, I'll have you know. I was always being told by teachers not to pester them over the bullying. I wouldn't be surprised if the suicidal victims joined the far right parties!

From what we see in the news and amongst friends, it looks like the bullying policies are just treading water. You've just got to put up with it kids. If the Liberal hogwash fails, you're not allowed to do anything yourself. 'Steps over the line and you should know better', see.
 
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I have no doubt we can talk about this all day. But I can wait an eternity for the subject of personal responsibility to come up, until I mention it.

Ooo, you can't punish Smasher Simpkins Mr headmaster, because he's got Munchybiscuits Syndrome By Proxy, or gets his head kicked in by other undesirables. It's not because he's some villainous little lout who knows full well setting fire to the maths teacher is wrong!


Is no bully responsible for his/her actions any more?
Of course a bully is responsible for their actions. Whatever made you feel they were not.

A child however is more than any particular actions.

Is it always the case to scrabble round for some kind of external factor to ring-fence serious bullies off from the consequences they should suffer? Hell, in your world the 'softer' bullies get worse stigma than the real hardcore louts, more of whom just do it for kicks than liberals care to admit. (Indeed, yobs who lived on my street didn't come from dysfunctional families or suffered in any way. They were just 'mayhem on the football terraces' vermin and such.)
That would be National Front/EDL People. None of us know what happens behind closed doors and of course parents can teach their children to disrespect others without conventionally abusing them.


Workshops only work for some, those who want to rehabilitate.
No, it is the responsibility of the adult to work to help the child.

If we had the time and the resources and suitable helpers we could probably help just about anyone. The suitable helpers are the most difficult to come by as they need to be people capable of empathy.

Take that London Black woman. I cannot remember her name but she helps children who would be lost with almost anyone else.

In addition, we have already agreed, each person's situation is different. Some kids might do well going to one of those schools for truants, others might do well with the arts. Others could regain themselves by giving to others.....but RoR every now and then you let out that you do somewhere believe in helping people.

For others, the softly-softly is just wasted, hence the need for high security jails until the end of time. You've just got to punish those who don't want to get back to the straight and narrow, or those who aren't ready yet. And if they're too boneheaded to learn from either a 'quiet chat' or the harder stuff, then you just keep them out of the way of their victims for as long as it takes.
I myself would not give up on children.


As you say, victims come first.
Yes, here we are in complete agreement. The well being of the bullied child should be looked to first and that has often not happened.

I think I at least indicated earlier that normal kids like your brother shouldn't have gotten the cane. Especially where sadistic teachers may have been involved. But as I say, the difference between the brutal schoolyard thugs and the ordinary kids puffing themselves up a bit or just getting things wrong is stark. The cane should be returned but used in context and very rarely.
It wouldn't work. ' School yard thugs' would only see it as something to be achieved to show how tough they were and it would not be possible to restrict it to them - never mind it being known that harming people encourages them to engage in violence.


By all means campaign to stop child abuse and street gangs. They're a danger to society as a whole, not just to the rats the older louts breed. It's up to a responsible government to lock up the villains and bullying parents and hold the 'hoody' generation in line.

So... if you can't cane them, isolate them, expel them or ridicule them, what can you do? What if the other kids 'standing up' fails?
Helping with child abuse and street gangs would indeed help a lot. I think that is part of the problem in managing the issue of bullying - underneath it are many other things.

However if we begin with schools making it clear to kids what kind of behaviour bullying is and that it is not accepted and making sure they do look properly when people come complaining about it, we are going in the right direction.

It still does no harm to have a week where we are reminded of bullying and that it is not acceptable.
 

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I was retaliating at the end of my rope. The bullies were aggressive. I told the teachers (as I said), but the bullying did not stop.

The school did have options. In those days anyway there was at least islolation, expulsion or detentions by the hundredweight to keep bullies out of the way. They failed to utilise all the options and any they may have tried obviously failed.

Once again, it's blame the victim time from the Liberal brigade. I'm not a sheep, I'll have you know. I was always being told by teachers not to pester them over the bullying. I wouldn't be surprised if the suicidal victims joined the far right parties!

From what we see in the news and amongst friends, it looks like the bullying policies are just treading water. You've just got to put up with it kids. If the Liberal hogwash fails, you're not allowed to do anything yourself. 'Steps over the line and you should know better', see.
No, I'm was not in any way blaming you. Hell when I went to school it was the teachers who did most of the bullying, but the fact remains if you are caught doing something and others are not, you will be blamed.....

and look at you, you are complaining because the sort of thing I suggest was not there for you.

I do not think it was.

That is why we need it now.

What about my friend finding her son has a knife. Her hair was standing on end. Now he came from a very good family and what is more he was one of the nicest children I have ever known.

He could have got into an incident. Who knows. Perhaps he would have used the knife in self defence and then some people would have called him vernim.

Things just are not so clear cut as you often seem to think.
 

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I'm not saying you should chuck kids in at the deep end at their first few offences. But the spiral of crime can grow and the further you go with the worst ones the more you see a need to lock them away. I'm talking of the kind who literally violently terrorise people and are a danger to all around including themselves. They know what's right and wrong. There's no excuse for persecuting people.

But once they're away is when you should look into their cases and see what's needed and argue the toss during committee coffee break. Some may respond to low level treatment, so have a go with that by all means. But that shouldn't be all.

I see nothing wrong with prison workshops, as long as they're not piled to the roof with bean bags and led by blokes in sandals. That's a bit soft for criminals I think, even if they are persuaded to knock off the atrocities. I'm all for the idea that louts of any age can be caged for their crimes as well as also being given tough love to teach them respect for decent people, their superiors and given the skills needed to actually do something on the way out. You need both carrot and stick, punishment and treatment. The only people I would class as exempt from a lot of it would be those who are seriously mentally disturbed, though they would still need to be kept away from those they harm.

I just rail against how feeble the impact of typical sanctions are against kids who fancy themselves as hard nuts. Like you say, different perpetrators can react to different punishments so it's good to try the lot, including the birch which worked on many. That way there's no excuses if despite everything else the remaining feral ones still behave like animals. Once everything else has been tried then there's no other option but to punish them so hard they won't dare raise a finger* against anyone again.



And as for your friend, I'm sure nobody would have called her son vermin if he was forced to defend himself in violent confrontation. People like me at least would be sickened that it came to that at all. If you remember, the nation united in sympathy behind that cancer lad who sneaked a knife in to confront terminally unpunished bullies and got expelled himself, even before he'd actually used it.


Victims do get punished, with good pickings for journalists: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...ing-school-bully-whistleblower-pure-evil.html




* Or knife, baseball bat, bit of metal.....
 
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Republic_Of_Public

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Not everyone deserves tea and sympathy...


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ikelcPEvYI"]YouTube- Gun and knife crime in the uk[/ame]
 

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Nobody's guilty for anything are they? Not to make them worthy of punishment. The fact that you laugh at the idea of murderous scumbags being locked up for the period they deserve says it all.

Just one question - if your daughter was killed rather than just pestered, would you still be waffling so sanctimoniously about villains being the 'victims' when punished? Would you be self-flagellating for any guilty thoughts of feeling anger towards the perpetrator?


The worst of criminals are never responsible are they, not really. Not as responsible as victims who fight back even.

Which is why I think the likes of Ian Huntley should be billeted on you for the rest of their lives if they ever get out. You could 'help' the likes of Jon Venables or Roy Whiting all you want and take full responsibility with them for their future conduct. That'll please almost everybody.

What would you choose - your kids' safety or your 'morals'?

______________________________________________


LOOPY-LIBERAL MORAL QUESTION SPECIAL:

RAPISTS - Evil beasts or not as bad as all that?


EVIL BEASTS NEEDING AT LEAST NEUTERING: [ame="http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=opera&hs=Rrb&rls=en&q=castrate+rapists&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai="]castrate rapists - Google Search[/ame]



NOT AS BAD AS ALL THAT: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1226530/100-rapists-let-caution-The-offences-come-court.html

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...y-bag-theft-than-rape-bnp-candidate-claims.do


Or...

NAH, ALL MEN ARE RAPISTS ACTUALLY: http://www.newstatesman.com/200601230006
 
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Nobody's guilty for anything are they? Not to make them worthy of punishment. The fact that you laugh at the idea of murderous scumbags being locked up for the period they deserve says it all.

Just one question - if your daughter was killed rather than just pestered, would you still be waffling so sanctimoniously about villains being the 'victims' when punished?

You are bringing adult criminals into a topic on school bullying. I was not laughing at 'murderous scumbags' because I did not look at your video, I simply laughed because you came back and added an extra video of an adult criminal in a thread on bullying in school.

I laughed RoR at your need to present something ugly. I was to some extent laughing with you or teasing you, because some of the time throughout this discussion you moved a little from your usual position.

I would need to say that to me it is strange that you almost seem to have an addiction to present the negative, even to the point of providing videos on people you call 'murderous scumbags' on a thread on school bullying.

That I believe is not having a perspective.
 

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It's not entirely irrelevant because the monsters committing the deeds in the video are just the kind of schoolyard villains you seek to defend. Just one or two years older than school age to be more exact.

I'm sorry if I didn't catch your drift but I have to say the words you used made something else seem obvious. And not for the first time I think.

Life is negative I'm afraid. Give some people an inch, etc. But yes, I see your point now you put it straight.
 
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