Questioning Religion & the Religious

[grip]

It helps the weak.

As for the rest, we were talking about beliefs, not scientific fact. Almost all of the lessons of Jesus Christ can be believed without having to resort to...

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You're out of your element. You not only didn't answer the question you've gone onto your favorite fantasy.

What makes you believe (not know) that you'll exist after death? Is it just a feeling that the fairytale in the sky will save you or is it magic?

 

[spanky]

You're out of your element. You not only didn't answer the question you've gone onto your favorite fantasy.

What makes you believe (not know) that you'll exist after death? Is it just a feeling that the fairytale in the sky will save you or is it magic?

I didn't say I did.

 

[spanky]

Oh, well, then if delusions are forbidden then we need to abolish the political left entirely.

You don't think the right has it's own delusions as well?

 

[grip]

I didn't say I did.

Religion provides in the belief of "life after death", which cannot be rationally achieved through secular means.

Then you also haven't proven this statement incorrect yet?

 

[spanky]

Then you also haven't proven this statement incorrect yet?

WTF are you talking about? It's a little late to be hitting the sauce.

 

[grip]

Of course it can be achieved through secular means. Does someone have to accept and worship a giant stay puft marshmallow man in the sky to believe that their consciousness survives after the death of the corporeal body?

This is another canard of the religious..."without us you will not continue after death". Say two Hail Mary's and drop a 50 in the basket on your way out.

WTF are you talking about? It's a little late to be hitting the sauce.

You already forgot claiming in this statement above, "of course it can be achieved through secular means." Prove it.

 

[spanky]

You already forgot claiming in this statement above, "of course it can be achieved through secular means." Prove it.

Really? What was "it"?

Did someone slip you a roofie at the bar tonight?

 

[grip]

Really? What was "it"?

Did someone slip you a roofie at the bar tonight?

You're not rising up to the challenge this time are you?

You can't give any other reason to believe in life after death, resurrection or salvation other than religion or some other such fantasy?

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

You're not rising up to the challenge this time are you?

You can't give any other reason to believe in life after death, resurrection or salvation other than religion or some other such fantasy?

Life after death that one always cracks me up. :lamo

 

[scplante]

No one believed that jesus was a messiah until the gospels told them.

At best yours and my opinions are biased or do you think that you are the one person that ever existed that isnt biased by your own opinions? Personally I see far more Christians that get emotional over the concept of gods. In reality I think though that demographically its the same between the two groups because we are all humans and we all act like humans. I dont buy that I think differently or you think differently just because we believe different things about the universe.

You don't seem to grasp my point. What i'm trying to say is that if God exists, Hed does not exist on a purley human realm. So if God exists he is, what humans call, Supernatural. So if God can create the world, I think he can make snakes talk. The snake you are refereing to is the Devil in the garden of eden and that was the devil manifesting himself. You seem to think that if it doesn't make human logicical sence, it can't be true. Just remember many years ago all the greatest scientists and philosophers thought the world was flat. Just keep that in mind. Also, the sentence where you state that nobody beleived Jesus untill the gospels told them is absolutly false. If your going to try make your point, at least get your thological facts right. The disciples of the Bible, for example, beleived and followed Jesus and they did not have the New Testament.

 

[LowDown]

You don't think the right has it's own delusions as well?

Of course not. We all regard our own delusions as Truth, after all. Some of us are just a lot more arrogant about it.

 

[scplante]

Can I just fist say that nobody will ever be able to unequivocally prove God, and nobody will be able to ever Unrove God? We make assumptions based on, knowledge, observation, feelings, etc. and put them all together. The human mind is very intricate and NOBODY ever bases a belief on just one of these facets. Furthermore, let just look at the big bang theory or any other theory. for example, we can account for all the molecules, atoms, and anything else that could have created the world, but what created those molecules, or what created space If you keep going back and asking these questions, while it MAY be possible, it’s certainly not probable. Life is so utterly complex that it would be a 1 in 1,000,000,000 chance that it could all fall together without a creator. I just don't understand how an atheist can say, unequivocally, that it is completely impossible for an intelligent being to create such a complex world. So while God may not be able to be proved, it certainly can never be disproved and most scientists and philosophers will agree. Those who don't agree are biased.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

You don't seem to grasp my point. What i'm trying to say is that if God exists, Hed does not exist on a purley human realm. So if God exists he is, what humans call, Supernatural. So if God can create the world, I think he can make snakes talk. The snake you are refereing to is the Devil in the garden of eden and that was the devil manifesting himself. You seem to think that if it doesn't make human logicical sence, it can't be true. Just remember many years ago all the greatest scientists and philosophers thought the world was flat. Just keep that in mind. Also, the sentence where you state that nobody beleived Jesus untill the gospels told them is absolutly false. If your going to try make your point, at least get your thological facts right. The disciples of the Bible, for example, beleived and followed Jesus and they did not have the New Testament.

Lol If you want to believe the bible (any version) I wouldnt dare to even think about stopping you. And you are just taking what I said out of context. In reality (not your head) I said that today Christianity would not exist without the bible had it not been written. Modern Christians are Christians because the bible exists. Christianity is a religion solely based on the teachings of Christ hence the name. 2,000 years ago jesus wasnt the only person claimed to be the messiah there were others but they didnt make it through history because no one wrote a book about them.

Here is some more reality: There isnt any proof that jesus was a real living person that actually existed. So you cannot prove even what you are accusing me of saying is incorrect I mean what are you going to do quote the bible? I remind you that you must present evidence that predates the bible to prove that Christianity predates the bible. Lets see that evidence since you are accusing me of talking falsehoods. Come on here is your chance to prove me wrong all you need is evidence that is older than the dead sea scrolls. The dead sea scrolls wont work so forget that and like I said the bible is too new so that wont work either. It would be wise for you to just admit that you cannot prove a damn thing not even your own strawman version of my argument. But feel free to beat your head against trying to prove that Christianity existed before the new testament existed without using the new testament or the dead sea scrolls. To be clear your evidence must be older than 49 CE.

I will be eagerly awaiting your proof.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Can I just fist say that nobody will ever be able to unequivocally prove God, and nobody will be able to ever Unrove God? We make assumptions based on, knowledge, observation, feelings, etc. and put them all together. The human mind is very intricate and NOBODY ever bases a belief on just one of these facets. Furthermore, let just look at the big bang theory or any other theory. for example, we can account for all the molecules, atoms, and anything else that could have created the world, but what created those molecules, or what created space If you keep going back and asking these questions, while it MAY be possible, it’s certainly not probable. Life is so utterly complex that it would be a 1 in 1,000,000,000 chance that it could all fall together without a creator. I just don't understand how an atheist can say, unequivocally, that it is completely impossible for an intelligent being to create such a complex world. So while God may not be able to be proved, it certainly can never be disproved and most scientists and philosophers will agree. Those who don't agree are biased.

You are jumping to conclusions without any real basis for those conclusions. Please show your work before making a claim about the origins of everything. After all that is the same standard that you expect of non-christians, since you set the standard you must go by that standard or you are being hypocritical and intellectually dishonest.

No one can say a thing about your faith in gods as long as you dont try and make your faith more than faith in something. You as believer step out of line when you insist that other people must believe in your faith. It is wrong for you to do anything more than explain your belief. When you go past explaining and insisting that your faith in a god or your religion is valid as an explanation of the universe you open your faith to debate. DO you seriously want to debate your faith in god and all that?

 

[grip]

Life after death that one always cracks me up. :lamo

Hahaha,,,, death it's such a funny thing. :roll:

 

[Ikari]

Can I just fist say that nobody will ever be able to unequivocally prove God, and nobody will be able to ever Unrove God? We make assumptions based on, knowledge, observation, feelings, etc. and put them all together. The human mind is very intricate and NOBODY ever bases a belief on just one of these facets. Furthermore, let just look at the big bang theory or any other theory. for example, we can account for all the molecules, atoms, and anything else that could have created the world, but what created those molecules, or what created space If you keep going back and asking these questions, while it MAY be possible, it’s certainly not probable. Life is so utterly complex that it would be a 1 in 1,000,000,000 chance that it could all fall together without a creator. I just don't understand how an atheist can say, unequivocally, that it is completely impossible for an intelligent being to create such a complex world. So while God may not be able to be proved, it certainly can never be disproved and most scientists and philosophers will agree. Those who don't agree are biased.

You just made that probability up. I say everything is dictated by nature and that it would be a 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance that it was due to a magical creator which exists outside time-space.

And yes, purely imaginary things cannot be proven or disproved.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Hahaha,,,, death it's such a funny thing. :roll:

Lol I find oxymoron's funny not death. Geeze I never even thought of the angle that I would be laughing at death.


OXYMORON: a figure of speech by which a locution produces an incongruous, seemingly self-contradictory effect, as in “cruel kindness” or “to make haste slowly.” Or to live after dying. At best though someone who thinks that they have a soul and that the soul cannot die, they wouldnt say life after death they would just claim that no one actually dies. In effect the belief in souls in the belief that humans are immortal. Which is fine for those that believe that personally I find the notion absurd that a human can never die mentally.

But an eternal soul is the main concept of the majority of religions. But no religion can claim anything real about a eternal soul all they can do is assert their faith in the belief that eternal souls exist somewhere.

I also find it funny that people say that most people believe in a afterlife when they are on their death beds. If you have been around to watch someone die slowly you can actually watch that personality wither with their body. As the brain loses its functionality the person that used to be in that brain goes away slower with the cells that can no longer function. WHich is proof positive that personalities exist within brain tissue not some mysterious place in the netherworld or whatever the religious will tell us.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

You just made that probability up. I say everything is dictated by nature and that it would be a 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance that it was due to a magical creator which exists outside time-space.

And yes, purely imaginary things cannot be proven or disproved.

Something defined as imaginary must be proved to be imaginary otherwise the use of that word is invalid.

Imaginary | Define Imaginary at Dictionary.com

adjective
1. existing only in the imagination or fancy; not real; fancied: an imaginary illness; the imaginary animals in the stories of Dr. Seuss.
noun
2. Mathematics , imaginary number.

 

[Ikari]

Something defined as imaginary must be proved to be imaginary otherwise the use of that word is invalid.

Imaginary | Define Imaginary at Dictionary.com

adjective
1. existing only in the imagination or fancy; not real; fancied: an imaginary illness; the imaginary animals in the stories of Dr. Seuss.
noun
2. Mathematics , imaginary number.

Not if you define it as an immeasurable quantity, then it can never be proved or disproved.

 

[Wake]

God does not exist because it cannot be sensed by any of the 5 senses, or quantified.

Can the above statement be disproven with logic?

 

[DDD]

At least debates here seem to be in one flow/direction. Most here do not seem far from one another. Were you ever surrounded by religious dogmatic ****s that not only did they not understood you, but replied in total nonsense as well?

Here is the scenario:

A - If you have read the religious book then you should know about it?
B - I have read it, understood it, and I know about it, but I still do not believe it!
A - The day we understand the religious book will be the apocalypse! - and turns away to speak to the other dogmatic person.

or

A - Historically we Albanians experienced all the three religions from: a) Catholic, b) Orthodox Christianity, and c) Muslims.

B - a) I will never switch religions, b) Why do you hate our religion?, c) The other religion is bad (and of course our present one is perfect!).

This sort of apple and orange kind of talks with the religious? Anyone had that?

I am asking cause I would like to know what do you do when they openly challenge your non-religious positions but do so by making sure that you hear them but otherwise do not address you (from fear of retaliation)?

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Not if you define it as an immeasurable quantity, then it can never be proved or disproved.

But who is saying that their creator is a immeasurable quantity? No matter how you cook it a creator of everything would be working within nature. So then the claim of a creator must work within nature to be valid. I am not aware of any working theory that explains how a creator of everything would work within nature. So then a creator of everything exist as a claim of the supernatural. Any creator defined as working outside of nature can be shown as not being real by the fact that nothing can be outside of nature. That would lead to the person that is defining a creator to be responsible for describing how any event could happen outside of nature. Science can be called on to describe why things cannot happen outside of nature, so that side of the argument is done. Claims of the supernatural existing are imaginary since the claim cannot be proven not because they cannot be disproved.

If someone claims A and they base the positive claim of A on B, then B must be validated. If B turns out to not be valid then A is not valid. The point is that the claim is invalidated not the concept. Claim A needs something to back it up for it to be a valid claim. With no validation A is not a claim, it is a idea. In order for an idea to be worthy of investigation it must have some basis in reality. If that Idea is based solely on imagination then that is what it is imagination.

So if the idea is that a god is supernatural then the idea is based on imagination since the supernatural is based on the imagination of the people who thought of it, I say that because the supernatural has never been proven to be anything more than imagination. True though that some things were considered supernatural then proved to be just natural but that does not prove that the supernatural can exist it proves the opposite. Case after case of the so called supernatural has been proven false.

All gods are considered supernatural since they are proclaimed to work outside of the laws of nature. So therefor all gods are imaginary since the supernatural only exists within the minds of the humans that invented the imaginary concepts. Thus proving that a great creator does not exist.

 

[scplante]

You are jumping to conclusions without any real basis for those conclusions. Please show your work before making a claim about the origins of everything. After all that is the same standard that you expect of non-christians, since you set the standard you must go by that standard or you are being hypocritical and intellectually dishonest.

No one can say a thing about your faith in gods as long as you dont try and make your faith more than faith in something. You as believer step out of line when you insist that other people must believe in your faith. It is wrong for you to do anything more than explain your belief. When you go past explaining and insisting that your faith in a god or your religion is valid as an explanation of the universe you open your faith to debate. DO you seriously want to debate your faith in god and all that?

First of all now YOU are the one using the strawman fallacy. I never insisted that ohter people must believe in my faith. If I did i dare you to show me the quote. You are simply assuming this because I am a believer, and other believers you have met do that. It's faulty inductive reasoning. The only points I have made here was that an athiest cannot prove that God does exist. Everything eles you just said is completly irrelavant to my quote and what I have been saying. The piece you have quoted me on was simply stating that I find it hard for any unbiased person, with an open mind, could unequivically say that there COULDN"T be a God that created the world. My point was to point out the complexity of the world, and to say that, to me at least, It's baffeling to not at least concider the possiblily of a Being of higher intellegence than humans.

 

[scplante]

Here is some more reality: There isnt any proof that jesus was a real living person that actually existed. So you cannot prove even what you are accusing me of saying is incorrect I mean what are you going to do quote the bible? I remind you that you must present evidence that predates the bible to prove that Christianity predates the bible. Lets see that evidence since you are accusing me of talking falsehoods. Come on here is your chance to prove me wrong all you need is evidence that is older than the dead sea scrolls. The dead sea scrolls wont work so forget that and like I said the bible is too new so that wont work either. It would be wise for you to just admit that you cannot prove a damn thing not even your own strawman version of my argument. But feel free to beat your head against trying to prove that Christianity existed before the new testament existed without using the new testament or the dead sea scrolls. To be clear your evidence must be older than 49 CE.

I will be eagerly awaiting your proof.

Well I am glad you are eaglerly awiting my proof. You hare wrong here my friend. Most historians acknolege that Jesus did infact exist. Wheter or not they beleive he was in fact GOD is a different story. Here is an exerp from wikipedia:

Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed,[1][2][3][4] and biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[5][6][7] While there is little agreement on the historicity of gospel narratives and their theological assertions of his divinity[8][9][10][11] most scholars agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was born between 7 and 2 BC and died 30–36 AD.

So you can see you are wrong. It seems like that YOU are the one who don't check his facts very well as anyone with a high school education should know this. Also to your other point about me supposedly trying to prove GOD;s existance, Thats not what i said at all. If you check my posts you will see that I stated that God can not be either PRoved or disproved so I advise you to read my full post before relying. I find a lot of athiests have similar, "know it all" attitudes similar to the one that you are readilly exibiting throughout your posts. But you guys are usually the ones with no specificities. I always hear "science disproves the Bible" yet I never hear any specifics. Please provide me with some "factual evidence" contrary to that of Christian Theology. I will be eagerly awaiting your evidence.

 

[scplante]

Lol I find oxymoron's funny not death. Geeze I never even thought of the angle that I would be laughing at death.


OXYMORON: a figure of speech by which a locution produces an incongruous, seemingly self-contradictory effect, as in “cruel kindness” or “to make haste slowly.” Or to live after dying. At best though someone who thinks that they have a soul and that the soul cannot die, they wouldnt say life after death they would just claim that no one actually dies. In effect the belief in souls in the belief that humans are immortal. Which is fine for those that believe that personally I find the notion absurd that a human can never die mentally.

But an eternal soul is the main concept of the majority of religions. But no religion can claim anything real about a eternal soul all they can do is assert their faith in the belief that eternal souls exist somewhere.

I also find it funny that people say that most people believe in a afterlife when they are on their death beds. If you have been around to watch someone die slowly you can actually watch that personality wither with their body. As the brain loses its functionality the person that used to be in that brain goes away slower with the cells that can no longer function. WHich is proof positive that personalities exist within brain tissue not some mysterious place in the netherworld or whatever the religious will tell us.

I don't think its fair for you to infer that all Christians beleive in so called Near death experiences. I am a Christian and am EXTREMELY sceptical of NDE myself. Especialy since I never once have heard of a near death experience where they say the devil. The pretense of Christianity is that you must accept the Lord to be saved. I find it hard to beleive that all those with NDE were Christians so Pleace try not to assume and put this one theory on all Christianity.