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Question For The Left

So, when you cannot answer a question, you accuse someone of a fallacy of absurdity. Yeah, right. Since my example happens between strong nations against weaker ones, it is neither fallacious nor absurd. I simply reduced it to families instead of say a political leader finding out a segment of his constituency just bit the dust.

You didn't like the analogy because it forces you to answer the question in principle. You won't do it for an obvious reason. Since you cannot answer an honest question without a dishonest deflection I accept your overture to throw in the towel. Now, we can move forward.

But i did answer the question. i stated that a right is what two or more people agree on. Not as in your scenario, imposed upon. This has been a truth ever since two or more people got together. You're example is probably something you think you imagined up. You are not that original. Name any war going on in the middle east or africa today or any war that has happened. Where an army invades rights do not exist, where a dictator rules there are no rights. The right to life did not appear because of some god or just is magically a part of nature. It came into existence the moment two or more people got together and agreed not to kill each other.
 
Yes he did say that during his campaign And it some what disingenuous for you to try and pretend that the statement means he never payed taxes. And no, the top percentile do not pay the lions share that is left to the middle class to do. It is also disigenuous to simply state sums of money because they are large it gives a false impression. Millions in trumps case could means a fraction of a percentage of total earnings.

Not sure if you're being disingenuous or just missed the point on the last bit. I did not say trump had done anything illegal. I said that the american tax system is convoluted and allows those with the wealth to create loopholes such as you suggest so that they can reduce their tax bill.

I am starting to think that you believe otis said, " no taxation" instead of what he actually said, "taxation without representation is tyranny."

All you know is the left propaganda that is spoon fed you. There is much evidence that the rich pay the lion's share of federal income taxes collected, not the middle class.

https://images.search.yahoo.com/sea...2015/03/FT_15.03.23_taxesInd.png&action=click

The top 2.7% pay 51.6% of the federal income taxes.
 
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But i did answer the question. i stated that a right is what two or more people agree on. Not as in your scenario, imposed upon. This has been a truth ever since two or more people got together. You're example is probably something you think you imagined up. You are not that original. Name any war going on in the middle east or africa today or any war that has happened. Where an army invades rights do not exist, where a dictator rules there are no rights. The right to life did not appear because of some god or just is magically a part of nature. It came into existence the moment two or more people got together and agreed not to kill each other.

Dude, no offense, but you need to take some courses in English and punctuation. If somebody else understands what you're saying, maybe they will chime in. I'll repeat this for you:

In virtually every civilized society that you can name, a human life is held in high regard to some degree. Sometimes, if people disagree about ideology, then governments repel or invade other countries and kill human beings. If you asked their defense of such actions, they would cite protection - be it a justification to maintain their religion, culture, etc. Society doesn't just allow human beings to kill other human beings without justification. The regard for life is universal. NOBODY thinks that another human being is entitled to take their life unless the other human being has a reason - war, punishment for a crime, etc.

When you wake up each morning, you like knowing you can go wherever you want and you would be offended if the cops pulled you over and told you to get off the street because you are a Muslim, Christian, white, black, etc. In America we expect the Right to Liberty because America is known as being the land of Liberty.

What makes unalienable Rights truths lies in the fact that most every human being longs for those things. It is inherent in their nature. People brave the death of the ocean, armed border patrol agents, the Rio Grande, etc. just for a taste of those Rights. And when America only allowed white people the privileges of citizenship and the ability to vote / hold public office, people swarmed here from every country on the globe just to be in a country that recognized unalienable Rights. Those Rights are self evident.

That does not mean that other people won't try and take away your Rights. Understanding that principle, America is the only country I can think of that protects the Rights of the minority against the will of the majority. REAL AMERICANS are held to a high standard. If we are true to our principles, we must be willing to state with conviction that we may disagree with what you say, but we will fight to the death to protect it.

America has gone to many a country, all over the globe, to defend the unalienable Rights of other people against tyranny and oppression. Sure, others may put your Liberty into jeopardy. That is why nations band together to determine what are just causes to go to war. Most religions (and even the Bible) have pretty the much standards regarding the rules of warfare.

Most of us know, instinctively that we would like to live our lives doing what we want without harm to our fellow man. When another human being imposes on those Rights necessary to live our lives without undue influence and / or interference, we are all equally offended. And so, in our charter of rights and the charter of the rights of man, we agreed on a founding principle regarding what this country was to be about. And, any time you are not enjoying the Rights our forefathers fought, bled and died in order to secure, then you should feel free to use those Rights and seek happiness elsewhere.
 
Would you vote to rescind our Declaration Of Independence and return to English rule? Some of the very reasons which started our country in the first place no longer seem important to the left.

1. Many on the left are for higher taxes in order to fund more social programs even though our country was founded as a fight against taxes paid to the British

2. Many on the left don't seem to really care about religious freedom even though that was extremely important in our fight for independence

3. Many on the left want nationalized healthcare

4. Many on the left are for stricter gun control

Forgot to check the poll but this is a serious question that can be answered without the poll.

5. Many on the right like to create loaded polls.
 
All you know is the left propaganda that is spoon fed you. There is much evidence that the rich pay the lion's share of federal income taxes collected, not the middle class.

Because they have the most money.

However, as a percentage of income, the Upper Middle Class pays more than anyone.
 
Because they have the most money.

However, as a percentage of income, the Upper Middle Class pays more than anyone.

I said the rich pay the most in federal income taxes collected. The left wants the rich to pay more and that is exactly the way it is. The top 2.7% pay 51.6% of the federal income taxes.
 
All you know is the left propaganda that is spoon fed you. There is much evidence that the rich pay the lion's share of federal income taxes collected, not the middle class.

https://images.search.yahoo.com/sea...2015/03/FT_15.03.23_taxesInd.png&action=click

The top 2.7% pay 51.6% of the federal income taxes.

This is not evidence. It is information that tells me only what should happen, not what actually happens. Your tax system may charge a high percentage but it also set up so that the rich can avoid paying that leve of tax. You even mentioned that fact yourself.
https://www.cnbc.com/2015/01/15/do-the-wealthy-pay-lower-taxes-than-the-middle-class.html
In other words, it said the tax systems are "upside down," with the poor paying more and the rich paying less. Overall, the poorest 20 percent of Americans paid an average of 10.9 percent of their income in state and local taxes and the middle 20 percent of Americans paid 9.4 percent. The top 1 percent, meanwhile, pay only 5.4 percent of their income to state and local taxes.
 
Trump bragged about being smart with tax loopholes enabling him to pay very little taxes...got a feeling we will know more about that in the future...bwahahahaha

:popcorn2:
 
This is not evidence. It is information that tells me only what should happen, not what actually happens. Your tax system may charge a high percentage but it also set up so that the rich can avoid paying that leve of tax. You even mentioned that fact yourself.
https://www.cnbc.com/2015/01/15/do-the-wealthy-pay-lower-taxes-than-the-middle-class.html

You didn't read the graph correctly. It represents the actual tax returns from 2014, not "what should happen". It is evidence.
 
You didn't read the graph correctly. It represents the actual tax returns from 2014, not "what should happen". It is evidence.

It's based on income not on profits earned. You're just giving them a pat on the back for allowing a minimal part of their wealth to be taxed.
High-income Americans pay most income taxes, but enough to be 'fair'? | Pew Research Center
Corporations also employ battalions of tax lawyers to find ways to reduce their tax bills, from running income through subsidiaries in low-tax foreign countries to moving overseas entirely, in what’s known as a corporate inversion (a practice the Treasury Department has moved to discourage).
 
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I like how there's no poll in this poll.

But I often joke that with all the turmoil in the world today, we should just return to British Empire.
 
Would you vote to rescind our Declaration Of Independence and return to English rule? Some of the very reasons which started our country in the first place no longer seem important to the left.
Does the Declaration of Independence actually have any legal standing or force? I thought it was the Constitution which was the guideline, and the Declaration just...a declaration of intent.
In fact I'm 99% sure it has no actual force of law, so why would rescinding it mean a damn thing one way or the other?

1. Many on the left are for higher taxes in order to fund more social programs even though our country was founded as a fight against taxes paid to the British.
They revolted not against higher taxes, but against taxes paid without any representation in their government. It's even spelled out in the document you refer to, why they revolted.
And it WASN'T because of high taxes, it was because they imposed taxes without any consent. And that only a small part of the reasons.

Whereas, currently, we have a congress which controls such things, and arguably is answerable to the voters, which means that if they pass higher taxes we technically gave consent.

People are upset lately because it looks like money can buy favorable treatment to the detriment of those without it.

2. Many on the left don't seem to really care about religious freedom even though that was extremely important in our fight for independence.
Bull****. Religious freedom is extremely important, so long as exercising that freedom does not violate the rights of others.

3. Many on the left want nationalized healthcare.
How is that in any way in opposition to the Declaration of Independence? Hell, I could almost see an argument for a new revolution to ensure we get universal healthcare of some sort. It's right there in the bit about "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

4. Many on the left are for stricter gun control.
The Declaration of Independence doesn't even mention weapons, how is this relevant?
That said, goddamn right we need better gun laws, not to restrict usage and ownership arbitrarily, but rather to require training and licensing, just like cars.
 
Liberals want America to be like the UK. So, why not just say yes, if there were a vote on the subject, you would vote to return to being part of Britain?
I partially like some things the UK has, but really don't like others.

It's by no means a "let's copy them, they're doing it right" situation.

I think there are some good ideas in their system, but they have many issues as well.
 
Would you vote to rescind our Declaration Of Independence and return to English rule? Some of the very reasons which started our country in the first place no longer seem important to the left.

1. Many on the left are for higher taxes in order to fund more social programs even though our country was founded as a fight against taxes paid to the British

2. Many on the left don't seem to really care about religious freedom even though that was extremely important in our fight for independence

3. Many on the left want nationalized healthcare

4. Many on the left are for stricter gun control

Forgot to check the poll but this is a serious question that can be answered without the poll.

Do you think left wingers think the US will turn into "Mega Canada" if they returned to British rule?

The British Empire is gone and trying to put the American revolution in a modern political context is futile.
 
Please show where I said our founding fathers were against "all" taxes. Are you saying the left doesn't want higher taxes to expand social programs?

But you're treating a difference in policy preferences as being somehow anti-American. It's absurd. "You want higher taxes than I do - obviously you hate America wish we were still a British colony!!!"

Are you saying the left is tolerant of religious beliefs (such as public displays and being anti-gay and saying Merry Christmas at the checkout counter)?

You'll have to put that comment in the context of the actual First Amendment. As is, it appears you're asserting a right to practice religion without anyone criticizing them for it. And the War on Christmas? Really? Lol....

Are you saying that the left does not want nationalized healthcare? Are you saying that the left is not for strict gun control?

The entire industrialized world has "nationalized healthcare." And I'd prefer just about any system other than England's. As to guns, additional controls on the margin, which is all that is possible here, will never turn us into the UK. Besides, liberal doesn't mean anti-gun, and gun control is not the same as a near gun ban.

The left would love to turn the US into the UK.

I'd say that the right is more likely to prefer a country like the UK (of a couple centuries ago) - House of Lords and an effective plutocracy, headed by an authoritarian religious monarchy seems right up the alley of a lot of right wingers.
 
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Does the Declaration of Independence actually have any legal standing or force? I thought it was the Constitution which was the guideline, and the Declaration just...a declaration of intent.
In fact I'm 99% sure it has no actual force of law, so why would rescinding it mean a damn thing one way or the other?

They revolted not against higher taxes, but against taxes paid without any representation in their government. It's even spelled out in the document you refer to, why they revolted.
And it WASN'T because of high taxes, it was because they imposed taxes without any consent. And that only a small part of the reasons.

Whereas, currently, we have a congress which controls such things, and arguably is answerable to the voters, which means that if they pass higher taxes we technically gave consent.

People are upset lately because it looks like money can buy favorable treatment to the detriment of those without it.

Bull****. Religious freedom is extremely important, so long as exercising that freedom does not violate the rights of others.

How is that in any way in opposition to the Declaration of Independence? Hell, I could almost see an argument for a new revolution to ensure we get universal healthcare of some sort. It's right there in the bit about "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

The Declaration of Independence doesn't even mention weapons, how is this relevant?
That said, goddamn right we need better gun laws, not to restrict usage and ownership arbitrarily, but rather to require training and licensing, just like cars.

Yet another person who claims to be an independent while spouting off a bunch of lefty garbage. Why are people like you on the left so embarrassed to own up to who you are? Either you believe in your values or you don't. I don't see conservatives ever being embarrassed to own up to who they are, only those on the left. Own up to who you are and drop the "independent" ruse.
 
I partially like some things the UK has, but really don't like others.

It's by no means a "let's copy them, they're doing it right" situation.

I think there are some good ideas in their system, but they have many issues as well.

They have many issues because liberalism doesn't work.
 
Do you think left wingers think the US will turn into "Mega Canada" if they returned to British rule?

The British Empire is gone and trying to put the American revolution in a modern political context is futile.

Left wingers believe that if we return to British rule, we will be like the UK is today, which is what they want to emulate, European socialism. They brag about European socialism all the time.
 
But you're treating a difference in policy preferences as being somehow anti-American. It's absurd. "You want higher taxes than I do - obviously you hate America wish we were still a British colony!!!"



You'll have to put that comment in the context of the actual First Amendment. As is, it appears you're asserting a right to practice religion without anyone criticizing them for it. And the War on Christmas? Really? Lol....



The entire industrialized world has "nationalized healthcare." And I'd prefer just about any system other than England's. As to guns, additional controls on the margin, which is all that is possible here, will never turn us into the UK. Besides, liberal doesn't mean anti-gun, and gun control is not the same as a near gun ban.



I'd say that the right is more likely to prefer a country like the UK (of a couple centuries ago) - House of Lords and an effective plutocracy, headed by an authoritarian religious monarchy seems right up the alley of a lot of right wingers.

The left wants to be like the UK today. That's the whole point. We don't have a time machine to go backwards. But, the left would like to have a vote to go back to being part of the UK as it is today. Liberals would actually like gun bans and that's what liberals do - chip at the block constantly until in the end they get where they want to be. Hillary claimed that she was not for gun bans and was for American's rights under the second amendment but then she also favored legislation allowing people to sue gun manufacturers and gun stores for any violence connected with their products. In other words, Hillary wanted gun manufacturers and gun stores to quit manufacturing or selling their product and then she could say, "We didn't impose a gun ban, these businesses voluntarily decided on their own not to manufacture or sell guns anymore". She didn't fool anyone, a big factor in the right getting out to vote and put Neil Gorsuch on the bench. Oh, that's right, I forgot. It was the Russians who hacked the election and caused Trump to win. Didn't have a damn thing to do with the Supreme Court or the left letting jobs leave the country and the left's policy of screwing white people.
 
Left wingers believe that if we return to British rule, we will be like the UK is today, which is what they want to emulate, European socialism. They brag about European socialism all the time.

But what evidence do you have this a wide spread belief among left wingers?

I live in Canada, the part of North America that stuck with the British Empire and really Canada is not some super left wing country, it may not have the exact same problems as America, but it has its own issues.
 
The left wants to be like the UK today. That's the whole point.

Well, who is this "the left" that wants that? I don't and I'd consider myself part of "the left." There are many better healthcare systems than the UK model, I'm not in favor of a gun ban, the idea of a monarchy is moronic, and their food is terrible.

We don't have a time machine to go backwards. But, the left would like to have a vote to go back to being part of the UK as it is today. Liberals would actually like gun bans and that's what liberals do - chip at the block constantly until in the end they get where they want to be. Hillary claimed that she was not for gun bans and was for American's rights under the second amendment but then she also favored legislation allowing people to sue gun manufacturers and gun stores for any violence connected with their products. In other words, Hillary wanted gun manufacturers and gun stores to quit manufacturing or selling their product and then she could say, "We didn't impose a gun ban, these businesses voluntarily decided on their own not to manufacture or sell guns anymore". She didn't fool anyone, a big factor in the right getting out to vote and put Neil Gorsuch on the bench. Oh, that's right, I forgot. It was the Russians who hacked the election and caused Trump to win. Didn't have a damn thing to do with the Supreme Court or the left letting jobs leave the country and the left's policy of screwing white people.

I see, it's all about guns, and if someone is left of NRA on the issue, they're anti-American. Brilliant thinking there. But if that's your whole point, why not put it in the gun forum where I can ignore it like I do all gun control discussions. Don't find them interesting because of crap like this. I'm on "the left" and own several guns, have been a shooter and hunter since I was old enough to carry a gun, favor some gun control but have no interest in the UK model, which if you're on the gun forum makes you a liberal commie gun banner blah blah blah.
 
They have many issues because liberalism doesn't work.

LOL. Famous liberal ideas that don't work - abolition, voting rights for women, civil rights for blacks, 40 hour work week, Medicare, Social Security, environmental laws, socialized libraries and fire departments and police departments, public education, etc.

That's as stupid a comment as "conservatism doesn't work." All you've done is define positions you don't like as liberal, and blamed those policies for whatever problems you see in the U.S. Boring....
 
Would you vote to rescind our Declaration Of Independence and return to English rule?

No.

Some of the very reasons which started our country in the first place no longer seem important to the left.

I also support having a robust notion of rights, which was started in England and still exists in England. You presumably do, too. Do you want to rejoin England?

Whatever your answer is to that, that's the Left's answer to your question.

1. Many on the left are for higher taxes in order to fund more social programs even though our country was founded as a fight against taxes paid to the British

Nope. The USA was founded to fight against taxes paid to the British without representation. You cannot neglect that part at the end.

2. Many on the left don't seem to really care about religious freedom even though that was extremely important in our fight for independence

What the hell are you talking about?

3. Many on the left want nationalized healthcare

I sure do.

4. Many on the left are for stricter gun control

I mean, a universal background check is only what 90% of the American public wants, so yeah. The "Left" supports some common sense gun measures.

Forgot to check the poll but this is a serious question

The jury is still out on this. Perhaps you could provide some evidence (making use of your free speech that you get as a red-blooded American!) that you're genuinely asking a genuine question.
 
But what evidence do you have this a wide spread belief among left wingers?

I live in Canada, the part of North America that stuck with the British Empire and really Canada is not some super left wing country, it may not have the exact same problems as America, but it has its own issues.

I read DP.
 
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