Putin says West taking Russia's 'red lines' too lightly

[Tigerace117]

Condoleezza Rice meets Gadafy in Libya

The US secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, will formally end half a century of hostilities today when she steps on to Libyan soil and shakes the hand of Muammar Gadafy, once described by Ronald Reagan as the "mad dog" of the Middle East

www.theguardian.com

The Bush administration has expressed sympathy with the families but said it is time to move ahead with Libya, which has been removed from the US state department's list of states that sponsor terrorism.
Libya, now an elected member of the UN security council, has voted with the US on issues related to Iran's nuclear programme and has helped with the Darfur crisis. But its support on other key issues, notably the Middle East peace process, is far from clear.

A US state department spokesman, Sean McCormack, described Rice's visit as an "historic stop". Principal US interests on the agenda include investment in Libya's oil and gas industry and combating terrorism in North Africa:

And then he screamed about waging jihad against Switzerland. He was the same rabid dog as ever.

 

[Juin]

And then he screamed about waging jihad against Switzerland. He was the same rabid dog as ever.

You actually make Gaddafi look like a saint. Only a demonic disposition will call ten years of civil war inflicted on a population an exponential improvement.

 

[Juin]

where were they from? Cyrenaica was always full of terrorists types (Libya Islamic Fighting Group and AQ wannabes)
Tripoli was supportive ( generalized) Qadaffi used to ride arond in a topless car (like JFK) confident he wasnt going to be assassinated

The country as a whole though was much more prosperous thanks to nationalization of the oil industry

There is no civil war which is not the worse curse that can visit any people. Even in its mildest form the problems in Northern Ireland were a burden. Yemen, Libya, Syria, Iraq have paid horrendous prizes. Hundreds of thousands of human beings lost their lives. To hear some character qualify it as an exponential improvement is truly astounding

 

[Juin]

Nobody cares what a guy who engages in apologism for Gaddafi, the Wehrmacht and the Confederacy thinks.

I am not sure you are not worse than anything that the Wermacht or Army of Confederates ever coughed up. Only a demon would qualify a people that have suffered ten years of civil wars as having undergone an exponential improvement on their conditions. Do you have a scintilla of human compassion in you?

 

[Juin]

You [anatta] literally posted state propaganda from a brutal dictatorship friendly with Gaddafi and somehow think that’s something which should be shallowed whole.

Address the point that was raised. That is if you are even capable of that. Are you of the opinion a dictator is automatically wrong, and you are automatically right?

Gaddafi absolutely was a military target....and it was hilarious watching the fear and panic of his supporters as he got his ass handed to him

And for that you believe Libyans suffering ten years of civil war is an exponential improvement? What makes you think you are on a higher moral plane than Gaddafi or Putin or Stalin?

 

[Juin]

Nope, I certainly did. Unlike you they don’t cheerlead for their brutal former dictator.

You SAID ten years of civil war inflicted on the population of Libya is an exponential improvement. That is as cold blooded as any human being can get. You compounded matters by claiming to have spoken to Libyans who agree with you. That was a bald face lie. A lie! No one in that part of the world does not consider the whole thing a tragedy.

It’s always telling watching Western tankies defend despots that the locals are delighted to be gone.

From a cold blooded panzer ace who believes ten years of civil war is an exponential ace. So you are a tiger ace. Figures. Was that with Kampfgruppe Peiper?

 

[anatta]

There is no civil war which is not the worse curse that can visit any people. Even in its mildest form the problems in Northern Ireland were a burden. Yemen, Libya, Syria, Iraq have paid horrendous prizes. Hundreds of thousands of human beings lost their lives. To hear some character qualify it as an exponential improvement is truly astounding

Indeed -good clarity.
Syria is a generational+ wreck that will take herculean efforts. Iraq incubated AQIR/(ISIS) as a result of the US toppling of Saddam.
Qadaffi allowed the British SAS and the U.S. CIA to roam around Bengazi and the east taking out terrorists;
he warned of "beasts wearing turbans" replacing him if he was removed

Libya got so bad Tripoli residents were forced to drill thru the sidewalk for water ( usually served by the Great Man Made River-a qadaffi project)

Yemen civil war has incubated AQAP and the war itself has had the Old City of Sana'a (Heritage site) damaged with COVID run wild
Civil war is brutal. we inflict it and then just walk away without a care like Libya

 

[anatta]

Nope, I certainly did. Unlike you they don’t cheerlead for their brutal former dictator.
It’s always telling watching Western tankies defend despots that the locals are delighted to be gone.

Many Libyans want the days of Qadaffi's security and prosperity back.. "brutal dictator"? lol..the same meme was said about Saddam
and Assad as well as Qadaffi
But you never mention the Islamists (al-Nusra) that fought against Assad in Syria and ISIS against Iraq and Libya government
Those wars have led to terrorists to thrive. They are still in Libya south of Tripoli and ISIS still an insurgency in Iraq/Syria

 

[anatta]

And then he screamed about waging jihad against Switzerland. He was the same rabid dog as ever.

it was his vendetta -a tempest in a teapot. unimportant in the scheme of events

 

[Tigerace117]

You actually make Gaddafi look like a saint. Only a demonic disposition will call ten years of civil war inflicted on a population an exponential improvement.

Again, nobody cares what a Wehrmacht apologist thinks is “demonic”.....but I’m sure you do consider your psychotic dictator hero a “saint”.

 

[Tigerace117]

I am not sure you are not worse than anything that the Wermacht or Army of Confederates ever coughed up. Only a demon would qualify a people that have suffered ten years of civil wars as having undergone an exponential improvement on their conditions. Do you have a scintilla of human compassion in you?

Oh look, more unhinged ranting and raving. Spare us the the faux tears bud.

 

[Tigerace117]

Address the point that was raised. That is if you are even capable of that. Are you of the opinion a dictator is automatically wrong, and you are automatically right?







And for that you believe Libyans suffering ten years of civil war is an exponential improvement? What makes you think you are on a higher moral plane than Gaddafi or Putin or Stalin?

I’m of the opinion the state media of the Venezuelan dictatorship isn’t worth.....anything, really.

Because unlike your idols I’m not a serial rapist and mass murderer. Duh.

 

[Tigerace117]

You SAID ten years of civil war inflicted on the population of Libya is an exponential improvement. That is as cold blooded as any human being can get. You compounded matters by claiming to have spoken to Libyans who agree with you. That was a bald face lie. A lie! No one in that part of the world does not consider the whole thing a tragedy.






From a cold blooded panzer ace who believes ten years of civil war is an exponential ace. So you are a tiger ace. Figures. Was that with Kampfgruppe Peiper?

Oh look, another unhinged, tearful rant from you because you can’t face the facts that Libyans despise your hero. Yawn.

Coming from the guy who happily defended the Wehrmacht your posturing is laughably feeble.

 

[Tigerace117]

Many Libyans want the days of Qadaffi's security and prosperity back.. "brutal dictator"? lol..the same meme was said about Saddam
and Assad as well as Qadaffi
But you never mention the Islamists (al-Nusra) that fought against Assad in Syria and ISIS against Iraq and Libya government
Those wars have led to terrorists to thrive. They are still in Libya south of Tripoli and ISIS still an insurgency in Iraq/Syria

Saddam literally gassed his own people. Anyone denying that either he or Gaddafi was a brutal dictator is laughably ignorant at best.

I hate to break it to you, but shrieking “the Islamists” over and over is not an excuse to commit mass murder.

What really enabled international terrorism to thrive was the vast amount of weapons, funds, and safe havens Gaddafi provided for them.

 

[Tigerace117]

it was his vendetta -a tempest in a teapot. unimportant in the scheme of events

Only unimportant in the minds of his apologists.

 

[Juin]

Indeed -good clarity.
Syria is a generational+ wreck that will take herculean efforts. Iraq incubated AQIR/(ISIS) as a result of the US toppling of Saddam.
Qadaffi allowed the British SAS and the U.S. CIA to roam around Bengazi and the east taking out terrorists;
he warned of "beasts wearing turbans" replacing him if he was removed

Libya got so bad Tripoli residents were forced to drill thru the sidewalk for water ( usually served by the Great Man Made River-a qadaffi project)

Yemen civil war has incubated AQAP and the war itself has had the Old City of Sana'a (Heritage site) damaged with COVID run wild
Civil war is brutal. we inflict it and then just walk away without a care like Libya

We don't even have to go beyond our shores to find out how brutal civil wars can be. The US suffered a brutal civil war whoe toll was astounding, especially if you considered that that high toll was suffered by a much smaller population.

 

[anatta]

Saddam literally gassed his own people. Anyone denying that either he or Gaddafi was a brutal dictator is laughably ignorant at best.

I hate to break it to you, but shrieking “the Islamists” over and over is not an excuse to commit mass murder.

What really enabled international terrorism to thrive was the vast amount of weapons, funds, and safe havens Gaddafi provided for them.

Libya weapons got to Syria and the Sahel and sub-Sahara -but these are hardly an "enabler" anymore then other weapons'(like what the Iraqi army left ISIS when it fled. Point being there is a LOT of material out there if you got the cash ( or whatever the CIA was doing at Bengazi)

No one is "denying" 'brutal dictators. But they are their country and peoples have right to self determination
. you're all about democracy -yes?
And when WE go in and overturn the tables- more often then not that is the extent of our "help" Or we try and fail like Afghan

Iraqis resented us or were too busy with internecine sectarian war that they couldn't form a government that wasnt a vasal of Iran
because Saddam was a "strongman" as well as that 'brutal dictator'
Libya is a broken state in search of a unfying election at the barrel of a tenacious civil war

As much as I support the "special relationship" we have with Kingdom of Saudi A. and understand KSA needs to defend itself
from cross border Houthi attack,,,we do support indiscriminate bombing. We bombed civilians at Misrata Libya as well

^Things the warhawks never consider as thy walk away from their carnage

 

[Fabiusbile]

No I didn't. But if you're talking about how things went for the war, how did it work out when you guys fought them.

Not you personally, but your government. And it was not American soldiers who lost the war in Afghanistan, but American politicians... it is politicians who start and end wars.

Who said anything about a hot war with a nuclear power? Cold War 2 would be far preferable.

I have no opinion on this.
Strange formula and strange desires. The Cold War broke out by the fact that the strongest countries fought each other in local wars.
As a person who has participated in several similar conflicts, I don't see anything good in this. I have seen the result of how people suffer.

One of the most anti-American comments I've seen on DP.

Well... first of all, I'm not trying to be pro-American. The Russian flag at my profile seems to hint...
however, you have seen something that is not there. There was nothing anti-American about this post. But I won't dissuade you, you really want to see me as an enemy... as much as your heart desires.

And that is the problem. I see nothing to indicate that the US is gearing up for a Crimea War 2.0. The Coast Guard boats being sent to Ukraine won't cut it. An Armada of the size deployed against Saddam Hussein in 1991 by Bush père would have to be sent over there. There is no sign of that. Biden knows it, and Putin knows it.

This is true, but games remain games. America demonstrates to its nation its readiness to punish bad Russia, Russia demonstrates to its nation its readiness to protect its interests. Everyone is happy, patriots rejoice, defense budgets are being mastered, the houses of generals and businessmen are being built.

 

[Juin]

Oh look, another unhinged, tearful rant from you because you can’t face the facts that Libyans despise your hero. Yawn.

The rant is at a blood thirsty bound who considers a ten year civil war inflicted on Libyans as an exponential improvement. You are the last person to consider yourself a champion of Libyans.

Coming from the guy who happily defended the Wehrmacht your posturing is laughably feeble.

I defend the young men who fought for the Wehrmacht and the Armies of the Confederacy. They fought for an evil and lost cause; but I do not fault them for that. Soldiers execute policies set by civilians. That is probably too dense for you.

 

[Juin]

Libya weapons got to Syria and the Sahel and sub-Sahara -but these are hardly an "enabler" anymore then other weapons'(like what the Iraqi army left ISIS when it fled. Point being there is a LOT of material out there if you got the cash ( or whatever the CIA was doing at Bengazi)

No one is "denying" 'brutal dictators. But they are their country and peoples have right to self determination
. you're all about democracy -yes?
And when WE go in and overturn the tables- more often then not that is the extent of our "help" Or we try and fail like Afghan

Iraqis resented us or were too busy with internecine sectarian war that they couldn't form a government that wasnt a vasal of Iran
because Saddam was a "strongman" as well as that 'brutal dictator'
Libya is a broken state in search of a unfying election at the barrel of a tenacious civil war

As much as I support the "special relationship" we have with Kingdom of Saudi A. and understand KSA needs to defend itself
from cross border Houthi attack,,,we do support indiscriminate bombing. We bombed civilians at Misrata Libya as well

^Things the warhawks never consider as thy walk away from their carnage

I don’t think Tigerace has the intellectual ability to appreciate that it is not about Saddam, Gaddafi, Putin etc being the best for their countries. What is at issue is whether our Cold War 2.0 Warriors are delivering what they promised. You cannot promise a stable, prosperous democracy and then leave chaos, Famine, mass casualties, behind and then blithely claim an exponential improvement.

It is simply a case of bad choices. Gaddafi was a bad choice Libyans. And of course Libyans would prefer to elect their leaders. But, evil as Gaddafi was, he actually ran a stable, secure and prosperous Libya.

Now the neocons who promised Libyans a Jeffersonian democracy did not deliver. They didn't even attempt to. Obama and Sarkozy limited themselves to demolition of Libya from the air. Without any ground troops to build that democracy they promised Libyans, anarchy, civil wars, banditary was guaranteed. An exponential improvement I am informed.

How does it make sense to replace one Gaddafi with thousands of Gaddafis? Thanks to Obama and Sarkozy each Libyan street has its little Gaddafis, raping, looting, robbing at will. An exponential improvement a panzer ace informs us.

Syria dodged a bullet. Obama had same Libyan prescription for Syria. Flood the whole Syria with all kinds of arms and ruffians, then claim an exponential improvement amidst the tens of thousands of cadavers

 

[anatta]

I don’t think Tigerace has the intellectual ability to appreciate that it is not about Saddam, Gaddafi, Putin etc being the best for their countries. What is at issue is whether our Cold War 2.0 Warriors are delivering what they promised. You cannot promise a stable, prosperous democracy and then leave chaos, Famine, mass casualties, behind and then blithely claim an exponential improvement.

It is simply a case of bad choices. Gaddafi was a bad choice Libyans. And of course Libyans would prefer to elect their leaders. But, evil as Gaddafi was, he actually ran a stable, secure and prosperous Libya.

Now the neocons who promised Libyans a Jeffersonian democracy did not deliver. They didn't even attempt to. Obama and Sarkozy limited themselves to demolition of Libya from the air. Without any ground troops to build that democracy they promised Libyans, anarchy, civil wars, banditary was guaranteed. An exponential improvement I am informed.

How does it make sense to replace one Gaddafi with thousands of Gaddafis? Thanks to Obama and Sarkozy each Libyan street has its little Gaddafis, raping, looting, robbing at will. An exponential improvement a panzer ace informs us.

Syria dodged a bullet. Obama had same Libyan prescription for Syria. Flood the whole Syria with all kinds of arms and ruffians, then claim an exponential improvement amidst the tens of thousands of cadavers

bingo. Obama called it a "kinetic military action". like dropping bombs on an army in a civil was was just another military exercise.
It was regime change but they could disown it
Obama Sarzozy and Cameron all had a chance to help, they had zero interest once they broke Libya

How does it make sense to replace one Gaddafi with thousands of Gaddafis? Thanks to Obama and Sarkozy each Libyan street has its little Gaddafis, raping, looting, robbing at will.

It waa called "militia rule" from the neighborhood to citywide - private militias formed their own "defense forces" ( Like the Misrata Brigades)

The Murder Brigades of Misrata

www.hrw.org

after the failure of the NTC and the bombing of Parliament it moved to Bengazi it was attacked and then it moved to Tobruk and it was bombed (Islamists)...at one point "Parliament" met on a yacht ..it became absurd, but Gen Hiftar formd the Libyan National Army and set out to take Tripoli.
Turkish drones and Syrian jihadists came to Libya and the military movement has degraded for Hiftar.. and we are supposedly having a December "unity" election
This is the spams Libya has had to go thru thanks to Operation Odyssey Dawn

 

[Rogue Valley]

This is true, but games remain games. America demonstrates to its nation its readiness to punish bad Russia, Russia demonstrates to its nation its readiness to protect its interests.

Ah, it's our Russian prison guard again.

A free and independent Ukraine is in everyone's interest. Except in Moscow's interest of course. Gotta have those vassal buffer states eh?

 

[Helix]

Replace NG and other fossil fuels.

 

[Tigerace117]

Libya weapons got to Syria and the Sahel and sub-Sahara -but these are hardly an "enabler" anymore then other weapons'(like what the Iraqi army left ISIS when it fled. Point being there is a LOT of material out there if you got the cash ( or whatever the CIA was doing at Bengazi)

No one is "denying" 'brutal dictators. But they are their country and peoples have right to self determination
. you're all about democracy -yes?
And when WE go in and overturn the tables- more often then not that is the extent of our "help" Or we try and fail like Afghan

Iraqis resented us or were too busy with internecine sectarian war that they couldn't form a government that wasnt a vasal of Iran
because Saddam was a "strongman" as well as that 'brutal dictator'
Libya is a broken state in search of a unfying election at the barrel of a tenacious civil war

As much as I support the "special relationship" we have with Kingdom of Saudi A. and understand KSA needs to defend itself
from cross border Houthi attack,,,we do support indiscriminate bombing. We bombed civilians at Misrata Libya as well

^Things the warhawks never consider as thy walk away from their carnage

Libyan weapons were supplied from everyone from the Provisional IRA to the FARC and Shining Path in Peru to the New People’s Army in the Philippines. He literally supplied TONS of weapons. For example....

The 38-year connection between Irish republicans and Gaddafi

As Libyans' fight against a 42-year dictatorship, deputy first minister Martin McGuinness says he feels no shame about republicans' past links with Colonel Gaddafi. What exactly is the link between Colonel Gaddafi and Northern Ireland?

www.bbc.com

The point being, of course, is that you, like every other apologist for thugs like Gaddafi, are laughably ignorant on every level.

Hilarious that you’d actually try to play the “self determination” card. Nobody elected Gaddafi. He seized power in a brutal coup and murdered those who opposed him.

As usual, tankies are too busy mourning their psychotic heroes to face the actual facts.

 

[Tigerace117]

[

The rant is at a blood thirsty bound who considers a ten year civil war inflicted on Libyans as an exponential improvement. You are the last person to consider yourself a champion of Libyans.





I defend the young men who fought for the Wehrmacht and the Armies of the Confederacy. They fought for an evil and lost cause; but I do not fault them for that. Soldiers execute policies set by civilians. That is probably too dense for you.

You defend the thugs who murdered tens of millions as they rampaged across Europe, all while squealing about a “ten year civil war” which killed a tiny fraction of those murdered by the Wehrmacht.

I hate to break it to you, but that is NOT an excuse for committing genocide, and never has been. “I’m just following orders!” has been legally proven to be no defense since Nuremberg.

But I forgot.....you are a tankie, and therefore aren’t capable of handling actual historical facts.