Public school k-12

[Luther]

I'm sorry but you think it would be easier to change every single american into a different person than it would be to change one system? We could just jot down a few new rules for education, you would rather run some kind of propaganda campaign instead?

What about the parents and students with valid concerns? YouTube

If there is something actually wrong going on in schools is your solution to just carry on? Our standards for teaching are so low that this video above doesn't really surprise me. You act like paying teachers more will bankrupt us all, but if we keep paying such low wages we're going to keep having low quality teachers. Only a crazy person would take a job where they have to use their income to fund their own supplies.

I get that bootlickers like yourself have never ran into problems with authority, but kids are literally getting beat in some schools and you want to blame society? OP is right, education hasn't changed in over a hundred years, and it wouldn't be very difficult to change. Making every kid in America appreciate school? Yeah man good luck changing human nature.

but kids are literally getting beat in some schools

No that's funny!!!

That is a Rare, Rare.... thing

You act like paying teachers more will bankrupt us all,

Hey guy, it is Bankrupting some school Dist already. Like Chicago and Oakland school Dist(HELLO)


What is the BIGGEST UNFUNDED liability In Calif RIGHT NOW? TEACHER PENSIONS are

but if we keep paying such low wages we're going to keep having low quality teachers.

What?

How are these low quality of teachers you speak of even getting a teaching degree in the first place?

 

[Luther]

I was prompted to start this thread from another discussion.

So I notice some issues with our public School system in the United States. With a population more focused on higher education and of course a greater need for higher education, are public schools seem to be failing to prep students for such a thing.

This discussion is to find out why.

What I think it is, is in over a hundred years our school curriculum or structure hasn't changed. It might have actually been longer. The problem is is the country has moved from a manufacturing-based economy to a more diversified economy we don't need as many docile sober and punctual factory workers. But our schools are mainly to train people to be just that.

I can expand upon this but I would really like to hear what other people have to say first.

With a population more focused on higher education

Yes and no

Parents will still drive a car of a cliff for their kids k- 12 Education

They do it in my state by voting them own selves a property tax increase(Levy) when it's the state legislators job to fund schools

So, they're just enablers

 

[CLAX1911]

Yes and no

Parents will still drive a car of a cliff for their kids k- 12 Education

Agreed but the administration's hands aren't clean either.

They do it in my state by voting them own selves a property tax increase(Levy) when it's the state legislators job to fund schools

So, they're just enablers

Agreed.

It seems to be a feedback loop. Citizens enable officials and officials enable citizens [not to care]

 

[Luther]

Agreed but the administration's hands aren't clean either.

Agreed.

It seems to be a feedback loop. Citizens enable officials and officials enable citizens [not to care]

Agreed but the administration's hands aren't clean either.

What do you mean?(specifics)

 

[Izzy]

What's the point of changing the system if the biggest hindrance to the system is never addressed?

Let's say your car stops running. Would you replace the entire engine before you filled up the empty gas tank?

Education is changing and adapting all the time.

I'm not watching your video, but I'm sure there are valid concerns. But let's fill the gas tank first and then we'll see what we can do about those valid concerns. Because it is entirely possible those concerns will melt away.

This car example is so weird, if people are the fuel are you saying we are running out of people? It just doesn't make any since. Yes school changes here and there, but it has always been a large number of kids and one teacher. Tutoring has been around but for the most part kids are just a face in the crowd, teachers don't even notice some students.

Kids and parents have valid concerns but we should be trying to "fill the gas tank?" What like shove more kids into the school system? I don't know what more gas means, it makes 0 since.

No, the solution is to change what is actually going wrong. And that's what Luther said.

Our standards for parents and supporting education are so low, we get what we've put in.

You could pay me $100,000 a year to teach 10 students a day, but if those 10 students are going home to an aunt that emotionally abuses them and an uncle who sexually abuses them because their parents are in jail on drug charges, and no one gives a rip if the student does their school work, it's not going to make that much of a difference. :shrug:

I do want to say, however, I'd love a pay raise.
Fortunately, there are many of us who are that crazy.

Kids are getting beat far more often at home by parents who actively downplay the value of an education.

Yes, let's put the blame where it rightfully belongs.

So instead of doing anything to our perfect and righteous school system, we need to end all rape? Child abuse doesn't make schools bad, it makes students more vulnerable to an absent minded system that ignores them every day. We're trying to make a school system where victims of abuse can feel safe to approach teachers, but you want us to focus on ending all abuse??? Screw your gas and engine argument, it doesn't matter how much gas you pour in if the engine is bad!

"Yeah school not great but rape is a thing so clearly school is perfect hur dur"

You can't just point out that some kids are unhappy because of their parents and use that as a reason to justify abuses in school. We can address both issues, this isn't an "either or" argument. A BETTER SCHOOL SYSTEM MAKES A BETTER SOCIETY! If you want to change how people think about school, what better way than making a school system that shows compassion? Is your solution to just put up a bunch of anti-abuse posters?

You're acting as though it's easier to change a society than it is to change school. Even though the most effective method for change is education.

Pure ignorance. The idea education hasn't changed in the last 10 years is completely stupid, let alone the last 100.

As I told Clax, if you're not going to bother to do even a modicum of research into the topic, why post?

So...education, which is constantly changing and evolving, needs to keep changing, even though students and parents are not going to take it any more seriously.

And that's your solution to improving education?

We'll use cars as an example because that's how you see children. If I paint my mustang yellow does it suddenly drive faster? Change doesn't inherently mean improvement. Yes there have been a few changes here and there, that terrible no child left behind program comes to mind. Why change testing when we can just let kids take the test as many times as they want?

Yes black kids are allowed to be in class with white kids, but now we don't teach civics anymore. When I say school hasn't changed much through history I mean that in terms of quality.

You want some research? Black students are more than twice as likely to get suspended or expelled for the same behavior as a white student. Is that because their daddy was mean to them or is that systemic racism towards children? Not every problem comes from home and not every parent encourages their students to skip class. If anything school encourages lapses in education. How can we improve a child's behavior when we just send them home to their abusive family every time they act up?

Yes, my solution does involve change. So what is your solution? How are you going to get every single family in america to act more "american." Are you gunna get police to break down every door until they find a child being abused? How are you going to fix people?

Writing more rules is easy, making people love our current school system is borderline impossible.

 

[Izzy]

First of all, Education is a HUGE part of the REFORMATION I'm referring to

Teaching children on what it is to be an American early. Not just blow by it like now. In their hearts





All your points are Butterflies & Bullfrogs and does NOT address the "Heart of the matter" that ill's us

The Number 1 problem is Discipline in our schools and citizenry


All Teachers(Majority) will even agree with that

Also, It will also take Major immigration Reform

Example , Calif had some of the best schools in the world BEFORE mass immigration from Hell holes parts of the world. Now, they rank near the bottom

The scapegoats like to blame Calif's education woes on Prop 13. That's not it

If you think education is important to changing society, then why are you arguing that school change won't work until people change? The two goals work off each other.

I don't agree with the 'Murica stuff tho. Who cares if my kid decides he wants to move to France and be a USA bashing white flagger? This is the land of the free not the land of "we da bestest so don't disagree!"

Nationalism doesn't inherently make a better society, it just makes a more stubborn society. Learn as much as you want about being socially adherent, I'd rather put home ec and wood shop back into the curriculum. Immigrants aren't really that different from us either, and the fact that you'll admit they're trying to escape hell holes but still want to keep them out is too calloused. We aren't at capacity, we just lost a large chunk of the economy to the rich. But I'm sure you'll have a lot to say in defense of those too wealthy to need your help.

We could prepare an education system that can handle both our own and the immigrants children, but instead we need to lock them up and yell at people for not loving school enough right?

I do agree on one thing, discipline in schools is dumb. Sending a child to that "broken home" where you claim they got all their issues, doesn't solve them. If you care about having effective discipline then stop punishing kids through banishment and start trying to win them over. You can't beat respect into a child only fear and resentment.

Now that avatar is on netflix it's funny to see the comparison between the fire nation's school system and what I'm imagining you're perfectly patriotic and punishing school system would look like.

 

[Izzy]

No that's funny!!!

That is a Rare, Rare.... thing

Just because it ins't common doesn't make it funny. I don't remember saying it happens often I remember saying it happens in some schools. Yet semantics win again.

Hey guy, it is Bankrupting some school Dist already. Like Chicago and Oakland school Dist(HELLO)


What is the BIGGEST UNFUNDED liability In Calif RIGHT NOW? TEACHER PENSIONS are

That's really a tax/state funding issue. I'm talking more about a federal solution. Not one where we just through money at this or that school, a system where private schools don't get two swimming pools and public schools have enough laptops for each student.

What?

How are these low quality of teachers you speak of even getting a teaching degree in the first place?

I had a high school teacher who only gave good attendance grades to girls who came in wearing skirts. Boys could literally only ever get a B, while the girls learned in just a few weeks how to get an A.

Did getting a degree make him not a pedo? Just because someone manages to get through college doesn't mean they are a good person. Stop putting blind faith in a system that has failed time and time again.

 

[Slyfox696]

This car example is so weird, if people are the fuel are you saying we are running out of people?

I didn't say people are the fuel. I was pointing out you don't restructure the car when the problem is something else.

It just doesn't make any since.

Yes, it is clear you didn't get it.

Yes school changes here and there

:lamo


Here and there? You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Education changes all the time.

but it has always been a large number of kids and one teacher.

Yes...which is the result of society. Like I have said. Society is the one responsible for granting funds to build more buildings and hire more teachers, which is what is necessary for reducing class sizes. And the only way the schools get more funding for building new buildings and hiring more teachers is to get parents to more highly value education.

You are now agreeing with me and you didn't even know it.

Tutoring has been around but for the most part kids are just a face in the crowd, teachers don't even notice some students.

:lamo

You clearly have no idea what education is about.

Kids and parents have valid concerns but we should be trying to "fill the gas tank?" What like shove more kids into the school system? I don't know what more gas means, it makes 0 since.

First of all, the English word you are looking for is "sense", not "since".

Second of all, yes, it is clear you do not understand the education world at all. Take it from someone who does...what you are saying is ridiculous.

So instead of doing anything to our perfect and righteous school system, we need to end all rape?

Are you intentionally being obtuse?

Child abuse doesn't make schools bad, it makes students more vulnerable to an absent minded system that ignores them every day.

Child abuse, as one example, means that kids have way more things on their mind than the year Archduke Franz Ferdinand was assassinated. It means their motivation for learning is greatly hindered by the real world things which are going on. Poverty, bullying over social media...there are numerous societal factors which affect how a child is able to learn. Real life is hindering education and there's nothing the school can do about it.

We're trying to make a school system where victims of abuse can feel safe to approach teachers, but you want us to focus on ending all abuse???

Yes, I think society should work to end child abuse.

Why do you think child abuse is a good thing???

"Yeah school not great but rape is a thing so clearly school is perfect hur dur"

Again, are you intentionally being obtuse?

You're acting as though it's easier to change a society than it is to change school. Even though the most effective method for change is education.

No, I'm acting as if unless you change society and its attitudes towards education, you cannot meaningfully improve education. Which is simply a fact. Just because you pretend not to understand it, doesn't make it less true.

We'll use cars as an example because that's how you see children.

No, I didn't say children were cars. You did. You also seem to think it's okay to continue child abuse, so I think we're starting to get a good picture of the kind of person you are.

 

[Izzy]

I didn't say people are the fuel. I was pointing out you don't restructure the car when the problem is something else.

Yes, it is clear you didn't get it.
:lamo


Here and there? You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Education changes all the time.

Yes...which is the result of society. Like I have said. Society is the one responsible for granting funds to build more buildings and hire more teachers, which is what is necessary for reducing class sizes. And the only way the schools get more funding for building new buildings and hiring more teachers is to get parents to more highly value education.

You are now agreeing with me and you didn't even know it.
:lamo

You clearly have no idea what education is about.

First of all, the English word you are looking for is "sense", not "since".

Second of all, yes, it is clear you do not understand the education world at all. Take it from someone who does...what you are saying is ridiculous.

Are you intentionally being obtuse?

Child abuse, as one example, means that kids have way more things on their mind than the year Archduke Franz Ferdinand was assassinated. It means their motivation for learning is greatly hindered by the real world things which are going on. Poverty, bullying over social media...there are numerous societal factors which affect how a child is able to learn. Real life is hindering education and there's nothing the school can do about it.

Yes, I think society should work to end child abuse.

Why do you think child abuse is a good thing???

Again, are you intentionally being obtuse?

No, I'm acting as if unless you change society and its attitudes towards education, you cannot meaningfully improve education. Which is simply a fact. Just because you pretend not to understand it, doesn't make it less true.

No, I didn't say children were cars. You did. You also seem to think it's okay to continue child abuse, so I think we're starting to get a good picture of the kind of person you are.

The fact that you are only able to respond by cutting out a majority of the points I made is telling. Yes I was being obtuse. I have to fit these arguments into 5,000 words while trying not to skip past half of what you said. Since this is just going to be a chicken or the egg argument about how society's attitude on education can't change without education reform, and education can't change without society reform, I'll just clear some things up.

I don't enjoy rape. Rape bad. Clearly. It would be nice to end all sexual assault but that is a much greater undertaking than school reform. Are you going to put a cop in every home?

We could make a better school system that also tries to proactively respond to the "societal factors" you want solved. What we can't do is put a security system in every child's pants. If you want to hear my ideas for what might improve school we could talk for hours, this isn't an "make the world perfect" thread this is an education thread. You are actively trying to pull attention away from what OP is asking by claiming all the fault lies in parents' ability to get their kid excited about school.

You're the teacher, you make them feel welcome at school, parents have other jobs they need to do.

If you really want me to stay focused on your societal solution, start your own thread. I'll humor you tho if you have the perfect way to make every rapist give up rape, or how to ensure every parent has an hour before school to get their child hype. Otherwise you're just interrupting the discussion on school to b*tch about how society is just the absolute worst.

I get it, life got in the way of my education a few times, but you wanna know what could have made things a lot easier for me? Teachers that cared instead of teachers who wished my parents would just "fix" my attitude. Let's go back to the yellow mustang real quick. If you fill the gas without fixing the engine, running it will make things worse. How about we just fix the engine and fill the tank.

"Don't restructure the car when the problem is something else." You just admitted that school could use improvement but you still act as though we can't change attitudes while also changing the way we teach. The two benefit each other they aren't mutually exclusive. A car can have a good engine and a full tank. We don't have to ignore one problem to solve the other.

Can we stop arguing about semantics for just one minute damn.

 

[Luther]

Just because it ins't common doesn't make it funny. I don't remember saying it happens often I remember saying it happens in some schools. Yet semantics win again.



That's really a tax/state funding issue. I'm talking more about a federal solution. Not one where we just through money at this or that school, a system where private schools don't get two swimming pools and public schools have enough laptops for each student.



I had a high school teacher who only gave good attendance grades to girls who came in wearing skirts. Boys could literally only ever get a B, while the girls learned in just a few weeks how to get an A.

Did getting a degree make him not a pedo? Just because someone manages to get through college doesn't mean they are a good person. Stop putting blind faith in a system that has failed time and time again.

Just because it ins't common doesn't make it funny. I don't remember saying it happens often I remember saying it happens in some schools. Yet semantics win again.

So it is really irrelevant in the grand scheme of things as far as our failed education system(Rolling eyes)

That's really a tax/state funding issue

.

Is it because Teachers unions are getting unrealistic contracts? Oh yes sir!

I know what, we'll just tax the people even more right?

I had a high school teacher who only gave good attendance grades to girls who came in wearing skirts. Boys could literally only ever get a B, while the girls learned in just a few weeks how to get an A.

Poor rebuttal

We're talking about a huge populous of Bad teachers right?

 

[Luther]

If you think education is important to changing society, then why are you arguing that school change won't work until people change? The two goals work off each other.

I don't agree with the 'Murica stuff tho. Who cares if my kid decides he wants to move to France and be a USA bashing white flagger? This is the land of the free not the land of "we da bestest so don't disagree!"

Nationalism doesn't inherently make a better society, it just makes a more stubborn society. Learn as much as you want about being socially adherent, I'd rather put home ec and wood shop back into the curriculum. Immigrants aren't really that different from us either, and the fact that you'll admit they're trying to escape hell holes but still want to keep them out is too calloused. We aren't at capacity, we just lost a large chunk of the economy to the rich. But I'm sure you'll have a lot to say in defense of those too wealthy to need your help.

We could prepare an education system that can handle both our own and the immigrants children, but instead we need to lock them up and yell at people for not loving school enough right?

I do agree on one thing, discipline in schools is dumb. Sending a child to that "broken home" where you claim they got all their issues, doesn't solve them. If you care about having effective discipline then stop punishing kids through banishment and start trying to win them over. You can't beat respect into a child only fear and resentment.

Now that avatar is on netflix it's funny to see the comparison between the fire nation's school system and what I'm imagining you're perfectly patriotic and punishing school system would look like.

then why are you arguing that school change won't work until people change?

The people have to realize what change must take place and then incorporate that change

You have to accomplish one first before you can have another

 

[Izzy]

The people have to realize what change must take place and then incorporate that change

You have to accomplish one first before you can have another

Okay m8 lets go convince everyone to all agree on the exact same changes before we implement any, because that is defiantly possible. You just called kids getting beat irrelevant a post ago, I'll never agree with you so we're off to a great start.

Do you even have any ideas for this thread? Or are you only here to yell about how change is impossible because blah blah blah americans not american enough?

 

[Luther]

Okay m8 lets go convince everyone to all agree on the exact same changes before we implement any, because that is defiantly possible. You just called kids getting beat irrelevant a post ago, I'll never agree with you so we're off to a great start.

Do you even have any ideas for this thread? Or are you only here to yell about how change is impossible because blah blah blah americans not american enough?

You just called kids getting beat irrelevant a post ago

You act like this is a everyday common occurrence in school when it's NOT(Hello)

Okay m8 lets go convince everyone to all agree on the exact same changes

No, it just needs to be enough

For example, it was a minority that fought in the American revolution and won(wink)

Do you even have any ideas for this thread?

I sure do

We need to teach or children the fundamentals of being an American(the spirit in what was our REVOLUTION) every single day instead of , Compassion, empathy, understanding and all the other emotional liberal BS

 

[Izzy]

You act like this is a everyday common occurrence in school when it's NOT(Hello)

If you can find multiple examples of students getting beat on video in the last decade, there's defiantly more that weren't recorded. Even if it was one child, that should not be able to happen in public school. If you're special needs child got beaten by a summer camp counselor that camp would likely shut down after the outrage. But when a government employee beats a kid, "hey at least that's rare."

No, it just needs to be enough

For example, it was a minority that fought in the American revolution and won(wink)

Most people do agree that standardized testing needs to die and children need to learn more than how to apply for a job, but please speak for the populous as though most people hate emotions and progress.

Also please stop winking at me man I'm not single.

I sure do

We need to teach or children the fundamentals of being an American(the spirit in what was our REVOLUTION) every single day instead of , Compassion, empathy, understanding and all the other emotional liberal BS

Listen man teaching children to only align with one culture is not a good idea. There is nothing wrong with teaching them to be independent (independent from U.S.A. if they want) and to always question their government and authority figures, but you don't need to be american to do that. There is no human trait that is inherently american. Let people have global interests. Small-mindedness benefits nobody.

Emotions are not a libtard thing you lizard they're a human thing. Acting like emotional pain doesn't matter is like saying the 48,344 people who committed suicide in 2018 did so because they got bored of not being dead. No compassion or empathy? Do you think we're not pack animals? At what point in human history was it better to go live by yourself than to live in a community? We need each other.

When people do you small favors do you call them weak? No Mr.Manchild, you thank them.

I do see how you would be against understanding, seeing as you do very little of that. Really though how in the world can you think taking UNDERSTANDING out of school would improve anyone's education? Trying to take emotion out of education is the worst idea in the entire existence of all bad ideas. Have you never seen someone become a passenger to their own emotions? It's the dumbest thing you will ever see. If kids never learn how to sense their emotions, they won't know how to control them or communicate properly. You'll never turn humans into robots so why ignore their nature?

Please explain to me the disadvantages of understanding how emotions affect humans' thinking. I would loooooove to see how you pass that off as logical.

 

[Slyfox696]

Part 1

The fact that you are only able to respond by cutting out a majority of the points I made is telling.

I responded to the things which needed responding to. If you feel I omitted a particularly valid point you made, feel free to re-post it and I'll address it.

Yes I was being obtuse.

Well, glad you acknowledge a lack of honesty in the post.

I have to fit these arguments into 5,000 words while trying not to skip past half of what you said.

Make two posts. I do it somewhat regularly (including in this post).

Since this is just going to be a chicken or the egg argument about how society's attitude on education can't change without education reform, and education can't change without society reform, I'll just clear some things up.

It's not a chicken or egg argument. It's not at all. One cannot meaningfully happen without the other. Society's attitudes can change regardless of education. Education can only change so much without a shift in society's values.

I don't enjoy rape. Rape bad. Clearly. It would be nice to end all sexual assault but that is a much greater undertaking than school reform. Are you going to put a cop in every home?

You, again, seem to miss the point.

The point is that as long as society creates an environment which is a hindrance to learning, learning is not going to improve. The best teachers in the world are not going to ever reach a student who has zero motivation to learn. It's just a fact.

We could make a better school system that also tries to proactively respond to the "societal factors" you want solved.

We already do. The fact you don't seem to get that is a little bewildering.

What we can't do is put a security system in every child's pants.

No, but what we can do is promote education. We can stop tearing down education, we can increase the value we put on education, we can hold our educators in higher esteem.

You are focused on rape and you have completely missed the point of why I posted it. Is that you again being intentionally obtuse?

If you want to hear my ideas for what might improve school we could talk for hours

Given what I've already read from you, I don't. I could lie and say I don't want to waste my time, but the fact of the matter is I just don't have any trust your ideas will either be A) original and nuanced or B) actually helpful.

this isn't an "make the world perfect" thread this is an education thread. You are actively trying to pull attention away from what OP is asking by claiming all the fault lies in parents' ability to get their kid excited about school.

The OP asked why public schools are failing (hey look, more negativity in society towards schools!), when they are not, and asked to find out why. I'm answering the "why", even as I dispute the underlying premise.

I'm not trying to pull attention away from the OP, I'm directly answering it.

You're the teacher, you make them feel welcome at school, parents have other jobs they need to do.

You need to stop watching Hollywood movies. It doesn't work like that. Due to a lack of funding leading to a lack of buildings and teachers, it is not at all uncommon for a class to have between 20 and 25 students. Let's say a teacher has 6 classes a day. That means the teacher has anywhere from 120-150 students in one day. A teacher simply does not have the time to individually "welcome" every student, and they sure as the sun rises in the east do not have the time to overcome any issues every student may have outside the school which distract from their learning inside the school.

You are living in a Hollywood dream world if you think teachers are magical that way.

 

[Slyfox696]

Part 2

If you really want me to stay focused on your societal solution, start your own thread.

I don't have to start my own thread to address the opening prompt in this one. Just because you have seen you are clearly incapable of providing a sensible response in this discussion with me, that does not mean I have to leave.

I'll humor you tho if you have the perfect way to make every rapist give up rape, or how to ensure every parent has an hour before school to get their child hype. Otherwise you're just interrupting the discussion on school to b*tch about how society is just the absolute worst.

I'm not interrupting the discussion. You should actually read the discussion prompt before you say stupid things.

I get it, life got in the way of my education a few times

Your posts agree.

but you wanna know what could have made things a lot easier for me?

Life NOT getting in the way? Society having a better support structure to help you get through it so you could better focus on your education?

Teachers that cared instead of teachers who wished my parents would just "fix" my attitude.

So the problem wasn't that "life got in the way of [your] education", the problem was that teachers didn't wave a magic wand and overcome all the life problems that distracted you from learning?

That doesn't make sense. Teachers aren't magical.

Look, I am well aware there are bad teachers out there. I'm aware there are teachers who do not care about teaching and just show up for the paycheck. I had a couple of those myself. And I can assure you no one wants those teachers out of the school system (either public or private) more than I do. But those few bad apples don't change the fact that most teachers work hard and care about their students' learning and about the students themselves.

Let's go back to the yellow mustang real quick. If you fill the gas without fixing the engine, running it will make things worse. How about we just fix the engine and fill the tank.

Because the engine runs just fine once you put gas in the car. That's what you're not getting.

Millions and millions of students do just fine in the school system. They learn and they are prepared for their next step beyond high school graduation. We KNOW the engine works, because those students have shown that it works. So rather than rebuilding an engine which is producing millions of fine students, let's address where the biggest problem lies first and see if we cannot get the rest of the students on track.

"Don't restructure the car when the problem is something else." You just admitted that school could use improvement

Of course it can, but schools are ALWAYS working to improve. As I've said before, the idea that schools are doing the same thing now they did 100 years ago is so laughably false one has to be willfully ignorant to make such a claim. Schools are ALWAYS changing and adapting and trying to better reach students. We're always fine-tuning the engine.

but you still act as though we can't change attitudes while also changing the way we teach.

If you think teachers teach the same way today as they did in 1950, then you clearly are not educated enough to participate in this discussion.

The two benefit each other they aren't mutually exclusive.

Agreed. But we're already working on one, so what if we work on the other for once?

Can we stop arguing about semantics for just one minute damn.

We're not arguing semantics. You're making incredibly flawed statements based on what appears to be an incredibly ignorant belief. That's not semantics, that is just you posting stupid things.

 

[Izzy]

The prequel:

Part 1
I responded to the things which needed responding to. If you feel I omitted a particularly valid point you made, feel free to re-post it and I'll address it.

No, just re-read it. If you're going to focus on character attacks via making me out to be a rape supporter, I don't think there's much I can do to make you address the crux of this argument. Which is that we don't need to change all Americans to change the school system.

Well, glad you acknowledge a lack of honesty in the post.

Being annoyingly insensitive towards you're ad hominem arguments is not the same thing as lying.

It's not a chicken or egg argument. It's not at all. One cannot meaningfully happen without the other. Society's attitudes can change regardless of education. Education can only change so much without a shift in society's values.

Society's values have shifted. Only one third of Americans think higher education is acceptable the way it is now, and when polled society gave our public education system a C. I don't see many people arguing against school change, but I am bickering with someone who wants 100% of society to appreciate school before we do anything beyond minor adjustments.
Varying Degrees 2019
What Americans Think about Their Schools - Education Next : Education Next

The point is that as long as society creates an environment which is a hindrance to learning, learning is not going to improve. The best teachers in the world are not going to ever reach a student who has zero motivation to learn. It's just a fact.

How do you propose we take hindrance out of society? These are just circular arguments where you claim society's views must change because they have to, then never give any thought as to how. How are you going to convince a child with zero motivation? Are you gunna make a pamphlet for mommy and daddy to design their own magic wand?

If we had a system with verities in teaching method, maybe we could figure out that kid had no motivation because traditional verbal teaching doesn't work on him. Just giving him a teacher that does hands on teaching, or whatever method he understands, could show him just how easy learning can be when we use psychology.

Or we can just tell him it's his parents fault until they change him.

We already do. The fact you don't seem to get that is a little bewildering.

We already do what? Give the kid a lecture when they act up and send them out of school if it happens twice? As long as we are dealing with children by throwing them out of school we aren't actually dealing with them. Instead of having a group of campus police, maybe just a few student therapists could prevent school shootings and disillusionment in education better. I know I would have used that resource had it been available.

 

[Izzy]

The sequel:

No, but what we can do is promote education. We can stop tearing down education, we can increase the value we put on education, we can hold our educators in higher esteem.

You are focused on rape and you have completely missed the point of why I posted it. Is that you again being intentionally obtuse?

Yes because if we just love the ACT enough their tests will suddenly have valuable information. Never mind that they just took evolution out of the test, things are great and we should get people to love school. Tearing education a new one doesn't negate promoting it. People are tearing it down because it sucks right now and we need to not spend 1/3 of our students time preparing for a fill in the bubble test.

Okay I'll drop rape, you used it to justify not paying teachers more first, but yeah I'll drop it. You're point is very very very simple, and therefore easy to follow. "Society doesn't appreciate school enough, so it cannot change." I'm not ignoring that argument, it is just wrong. Society does appreciate school, not every single individual, but defiantly any person with a child. We all want a better system, so who's opinion are you waiting on?

Given what I've already read from you, I don't. I could lie and say I don't want to waste my time, but the fact of the matter is I just don't have any trust your ideas will either be A) original and nuanced or B) actually helpful.

You sure are approachable during discourse, I can see why the students love you so much. You are clearly very good at convincing people without resorting to character attacks.

The OP asked why public schools are failing (hey look, more negativity in society towards schools!), when they are not, and asked to find out why. I'm answering the "why", even as I dispute the underlying premise.

I'm not trying to pull attention away from the OP, I'm directly answering it.

They took out home ec now millennials are the least prepared generation to do any kind of cooking or manual labor. That is a failure. Taking out wood shop and P.E. so you can give more money to ACT doesn't somehow make kids better at life, quite the opposite actually. And as for the "negativity" bs, there was a lot of negativity around slavery right before they got freed, so please stop acting like having a negative opinion on something as important as school is the same thing as ignoring it. We wan't better school, you're whiny butt wants a better whole ass america.

I wan't an america with safety nets and compassion too but that this isn't a tax restructure thread.

You need to stop watching Hollywood movies. It doesn't work like that. Due to a lack of funding leading to a lack of buildings and teachers, it is not at all uncommon for a class to have between 20 and 25 students. Let's say a teacher has 6 classes a day. That means the teacher has anywhere from 120-150 students in one day. A teacher simply does not have the time to individually "welcome" every student, and they sure as the sun rises in the east do not have the time to overcome any issues every student may have outside the school which distract from their learning inside the school.

You are living in a Hollywood dream world if you think teachers are magical that way.

Not every one of those hundreds of kids needs help. If they had a teacher that taught to their learning style it would do a lot, if they also had a real therapist/counselor they could go to instead of the kind that only knows how to restructure your schedule, then that would do a lot more.

We are worker bees, cogs in the machine if you will. If you want parents to do all the work getting their kids excited to sit still for 7 hours then please come up with a way for the night shifters and the multiple job havers to get the time to do so. You act like I'm asking for magic when I just want to send my kid to a school system that looks like Finland's, while you're just sitting there wishing that all Americans would suddenly love school. That is the preposterous argument.

If you as a teacher cannot provide students with the happiness they need to thrive, then maybe your school structure isn't very optimal for supporting students? Don't just hope the kids will come in with a new mindset the next day. You want everyone's opinion on school to change? Okay prof. genius, let's hear how that's done!

 

[Izzy]

The one where you look at the timestamp:

Part 2
Life NOT getting in the way? Society having a better support structure to help you get through it so you could better focus on your education?

You think I shouldn't advocate for school change... because we need to make sure that life can't get in the way first? What?

I agree with support structures but you still haven't described a single one. Is your plan for everyone to hold hands and sing kumbaya until school is good? What support structure are you hinting at because I would love to talk about it.

So the problem wasn't that "life got in the way of [your] education", the problem was that teachers didn't wave a magic wand and overcome all the life problems that distracted you from learning?

That doesn't make sense. Teachers aren't magical.

Really? I thought they were all like the Hogwarts teachers???

I said I could have used some teachers that cared, sorry to hear you think that requires magic.

Look, I am well aware there are bad teachers out there. I'm aware there are teachers who do not care about teaching and just show up for the paycheck. I had a couple of those myself. And I can assure you no one wants those teachers out of the school system (either public or private) more than I do. But those few bad apples don't change the fact that most teachers work hard and care about their students' learning and about the students themselves.

So how about we stop making those good teachers pay for their own school supplies? Maybe make sure that students with bad teachers know they can seek out someone different, until the teachers with no students get replaced by more effective people. There are ways to deal with bad apples we don't have to keep choking them down.

Because the engine runs just fine once you put gas in the car. That's what you're not getting.

Millions and millions of students do just fine in the school system. They learn and they are prepared for their next step beyond high school graduation. We KNOW the engine works, because those students have shown that it works. So rather than rebuilding an engine which is producing millions of fine students, let's address where the biggest problem lies first and see if we cannot get the rest of the students on track.

We rank 30th in education globally, wow what a powerful engine. Millions of students are turning out "just fine" meaning they can get a job, but we don't know poetry or civics. Just because most our students aren't becoming homeless right out of graduation doesn't mean things are going great. We can do better without whining to every american to show more appreciation.

Of course it can, but schools are ALWAYS working to improve. As I've said before, the idea that schools are doing the same thing now they did 100 years ago is so laughably false one has to be willfully ignorant to make such a claim. Schools are ALWAYS changing and adapting and trying to better reach students. We're always fine-tuning the engine.

Like I said earlier, minutiae changes here and there don't mean much when we still rank 30th in the world of education. Just because some schools went from a 3 month summer to 2 months so that winter break would be longer, doesn't mean we are making very big strides forward. Most changes you keep talking about are state and local, we need to have one united school system where parents can expect the same amount of quality from school no matter what part of town they move to.

If you think teachers teach the same way today as they did in 1950, then you clearly are not educated enough to participate in this discussion.

Whoopty doo we came up with charter schools and now education is a privately run business, what improvement!

Agreed. But we're already working on one, so what if we work on the other for once?

Schools all over the nation implementing a bunch of differing new rules all over the place has done nothing, so instead of coming up with a uniform solution we need to do what exactly? Make america unite in the belief that school is important first? People already value school so maybe let's work on making all these "improvements" less random.

 

[Izzy]

Given what I've already read from you, I don't. I could lie and say I don't want to waste my time, but the fact of the matter is I just don't have any trust your ideas will either be A) original and nuanced or B) actually helpful.

This part pains me just because of how simple some solutions could be. An absolute moron could come up with a slightly better system.

Let's imagine we purchased a microphone to put in every classroom, that should be about 50 million, we could pay that out over the course of a few years or quickly via a more progressive tax on income over x amount of dollars. If that sounds like too much money to spend on schools, then you would be misunderstanding how valuable that purchase would be.

In middle school I had a math teacher that abused the class verbally on a regular basis. I remember one time when she called me mean and ugly in class because I had a "mean people are ugly" shirt on that day. Another time one student corrected a minor math mistake of her's and she went off on him, "I bet you were just waiting for me to make a mistake, but if I had a stack of all your mistakes it would be taller than you!" The poor kid was the smallest boy in class so everyone laughed at that one.

My point isn't that my teacher was bad so school is bad, my point is that it took years of complaints passed along from kids to parents to faculty to get her fired. We have a tendency to trust the system and that leads to pitting children against the authority of adults.

Look, I am well aware there are bad teachers out there... But those few bad apples don't change the fact that most teachers work hard and care about their students' learning and about the students themselves.

Instead of letting idiots like me grow up with a permanent low tolerance for bad apples, how about we stop making kids eat them? Not only that, lets reinforce those teachers who work hard and care about students. Let the students go home with recordings of the lectures so that they can retain the lessons better. Something as small as a microphone that only turns on during class time would save kids a lot of hardships.

I would also like to point out that saying the problem lies with students' attitudes about education, is like going to a restaurant, finding out that 1/4 of the time you eat there it tastes disgusting, and having the cook tell you the problem is you're lack of enthusiasm in eating. The only difference is, kids can't just go to a better restaurant. They have to eat the bad meals. Don't blame them for not getting much out of it.

 

[Slyfox696]

No, just re-read it.

No. If you think you made a valid point I didn't address, then post it. Since you didn't, I'll assume you'll acknowledge your ad hom attack was baseless and we can move on.

Society's values have shifted.

But not in the direction of providing greater support, both monetarily and in attitudes, to public education, now have they? So congratulations on wasting both of our times.

How do you propose we take hindrance out of society?

I have several ideas, but it doesn't matter. That's not our discussion right now. Our discussion is A) whether public education is doing a good job (and, for the most part, it is) and B) how to improve it.

I've answered A and B. You don't like my answer to B because you want to live in a fantasy world where education has never and is never changing and we can wave a wand and overnight improve education. I'm pointing out why your position is stupid. And that's our discussion.

These are just circular arguments where you claim society's views must change because they have to, then never give any thought as to how.

Because the "how" is not important to this discussion (though your statement here is false as I've already pointed out several things which can be done).

How are you going to convince a child with zero motivation?

Ahh! Now you're getting it!

Now let's see if you can go all the way with that line of thought and realize that what you are saying about education is nonsensical. Here's a hint...if you cannot figure out how parents can make a child want to learn, then how do you expect teachers, who see the child far less than the parent, to do so?

If we had a system with verities in teaching method

We do. We even have a name for the concept. It's called "differentiated instruction". Look it up. And then realize, yet again, why a teacher with a Master's degree in education is telling you that you don't know what you are talking about.

maybe we could figure out that kid had no motivation because traditional verbal teaching doesn't work on him. Just giving him a teacher that does hands on teaching, or whatever method he understands, could show him just how easy learning can be when we use psychology.

And maybe you can figure out this is already happening? That the movement of differentiated instruction has been pushed for nearly two decades?

We already do what?

We already work to create a school environment to help address societal factors. Did you already forget your own words?

Give the kid a lecture when they act up and send them out of school if it happens twice? As long as we are dealing with children by throwing them out of school we aren't actually dealing with them. Instead of having a group of campus police, maybe just a few student therapists could prevent school shootings and disillusionment in education better. I know I would have used that resource had it been available.

:lamo

You have NO idea how utterly ignorant to modern day education you sound right now. Absolutely ignorant.

 

[Slyfox696]

Part 1 of section 2

Yes because if we just love the ACT enough their tests will suddenly have valuable information. Never mind that they just took evolution out of the test

...the ACT is not a product of the K-12 public education system. ACT is a private institution which publishes a test colleges use for admission.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Are you ever going to finally admit you are debating with someone who knows way more about this than you do?

You're point is very very very simple, and therefore easy to follow. "Society doesn't appreciate school enough, so it cannot change."

If my point is simple and easy to follow, why are you still not getting it? Because that is not and has never been my point. I've said from the very beginning education is changing constantly, but until society changes its values on education, the gains education can make are always going to be limited.

It's not a hard thing to understand.

I'm not ignoring that argument, it is just wrong.

Yes, your understanding of what I am arguing is completely wrong. Nice of you to recognize that.

Society does appreciate school, not every single individual, but defiantly any person with a child.

:lol: :lol:

How can you say something like that with a straight face when roughly half of America willingly belongs to a political party whose platform is to undermine and defund public education at every possible turn? I mean, the Trump administration made a person who actively promotes private education as the Secretary of Education. Do you really have no idea how ridiculous you sound right now?

We all want a better system, so who's opinion are you waiting on?

Not yours, I can assure you of that.

You sure are approachable during discourse

Would you go up to a brain surgeon and tell them how to conduct a surgical operation based on something you read in a Highlights magazine? Because while I freely acknowledge my Bachelor's and Masters degrees in education were not as intense or as lengthy as what a brain surgeon has done, I can also freely tell you the things you are saying are every bit as ridiculous.

I can see why the students love you so much. You are clearly very good at convincing people without resorting to character attacks.

Most students don't insist on clinging to such stupid arguments and positions. Students are willing to accept the idea that someone might know better than them and listen. You are doing no such thing. You are saying things which are flatly untrue, suggesting schools try to do something they've been doing for nearly two decades and are arguing with someone who has read more research and literature on education and learning than you will likely ever do for the rest of your life.

The fact I'm engaging in discourse with you at all, despite those circumstances, should show you how important education is to me.

They took out home ec now millennials are the least prepared generation to do any kind of cooking or manual labor.

I'll be right back, I need to let our home economics teacher (now called Family and Consumer Science, but you probably knew that, right?) she doesn't need to come back to work because Izzy says we've eliminated her position. Just give me a second to let her know and I'll be back with you.

Okay, I'm back. Sorry it took so long, but I let our Shop teacher know Izzy said we removed his position to. He was disappointed to hear it, but he understood the value in listening to someone who clearly has no idea what education is like.

That is a failure. Taking out wood shop and P.E.

Oh, I've see you've cut one of my positions at the school now too. I had no idea that one of my responsibilities at the school no longer exists.

Please keep saying more things, you really are opening my eyes to the world of education.

 

[Slyfox696]

Part 2 of section 2

so you can give more money to ACT

Who is giving money to the ACT?

And as for the "negativity" bs, there was a lot of negativity around slavery right before they got freed, so please stop acting like having a negative opinion on something as important as school is the same thing as ignoring it.

I'm sure this made sense in your head, but I can assure you that is the only place this made sense.

We wan't better school, you're whiny butt wants a better whole ass america.

Yes...how awful of me to want America to be a better place...

I wan't an america with safety nets and compassion too but that this isn't a tax restructure thread.

No, it's a thread to discuss how we can improve education, but you don't want to hear about how we can improve education. You want to wave a magical wand and pretend that every ignorant and false thing you are saying is somehow true.

Not every one of those hundreds of kids needs help.

They all need help. The help they need is just different. Some deal with abusive home lives, some deal with friend drama, some have issues with relationships, some can't realize their dreams of sports success, etc. Every kids needs help and every kid needs to learn. Pretending they all don't need something from a teacher is ignorant.

If they had a teacher that taught to their learning style it would do a lot

Then it's a good thing education has been working in that direction for nearly two decades, huh?

if they also had a real therapist/counselor they could go to instead of the kind that only knows how to restructure your schedule, then that would do a lot more.

While all of our counselors are trained in counseling, you DO make a great point here. Of course, the point you are making is that society should provide more money to schools to hire more highly trained individuals, so the point you're making is EXACTLY the one I'm making.

How does it feel to know you finally made a decent point, only to realize you are now agreeing with what I've been saying from the very beginning?

We are worker bees, cogs in the machine if you will. If you want parents to do all the work getting their kids excited to sit still for 7 hours then please come up with a way for the night shifters and the multiple job havers to get the time to do so.

What if, and just hear me out on this, society was changed to accommodate those people better? What if we changed our opinion on the importance of education and made a concerted effort to ensure parents made enough money that they didn't have to work multiple jobs?

You act like I'm asking for magic when I just want to send my kid to a school system that looks like Finland's

You mean a country which highly values education and its teachers?

Great point! But, again, it's the point I've been making all along. So...

while you're just sitting there wishing that all Americans would suddenly love school. That is the preposterous argument.

So you want the USA to be like Finland, just not in the way that makes Finland what you seek to emulate? Okay, great argument.

If you as a teacher cannot provide students with the happiness they need to thrive, then maybe your school structure isn't very optimal for supporting students?

Yes, because when my good friend in school sat in his mother's living room while her live-in boyfriend drunkenly fired a gun which left a bullet hole six inches from his ear, it is TOTALLY the fault of the school system that my friend was not happy or motivated to learn for a few days.

Great point, Izzy.

 

[Slyfox696]

You think I shouldn't advocate for school change... because we need to make sure that life can't get in the way first? What?

Not what I said. Try re-reading what I said and see if you can figure out where you went wrong.

I agree with support structures but you still haven't described a single one.

Don't have to, not the point of this discussion. Start another thread if you'd like to hear my thoughts (you know, more than the ones I've already given).

Is your plan for everyone to hold hands and sing kumbaya until school is good? What support structure are you hinting at because I would love to talk about it.

Great. Start a thread.

Really? I thought they were all like the Hogwarts teachers???

Then that explains the stupidity in your arguments. Good to know.

So how about we stop making those good teachers pay for their own school supplies?

...you mean by having a society which values education enough to fund it better? Yes, that's what I've been saying all along.

Do you really not understand how you keep agreeing with me that to improve education we need to improve society?

Maybe make sure that students with bad teachers know they can seek out someone different, until the teachers with no students get replaced by more effective people.

:lamo

The ignorance of this statement is so incredible. How would you determine the "bad" teacher to make this work? Would all the new teachers be "bad"? Would all the teachers who deal with the less motivated students be "bad"? And if you move those less motivated students to the "good" teachers, would those good teachers now be bad?

See, this is what I'm talking about. You don't understand what you are saying. Moving kids until they find a "good" teacher is just stupid. There are bad teachers out there, but the criteria for that is far different than what you believe.

There are ways to deal with bad apples we don't have to keep choking them down.

Sure there is...create a society that values education and teaching to encourage more talented people to go into teaching, while also providing greater funding for schools so those talented teachers can feel supported by both parents and funding.

You know...exactly what I've been saying from the beginning.

We rank 30th in education globally, wow what a powerful engine.

"Based on their analysis, the co-authors found that average U.S. scores in reading and math on the PISA are low partly because a disproportionately greater share of U.S. students comes from disadvantaged social class groups, whose performance is relatively low in every country.

As part of the study, Carnoy and Rothstein calculated how international rankings on the most recent PISA might change if the United States had a social class composition similar to that of top-ranking nations: U.S. rankings would rise to sixth from 14[SUP]th[/SUP] in reading and to 13[SUP]th[/SUP] from 25[SUP]th[/SUP] in math. The gap between U.S. students and those from the highest-achieving countries would be cut in half in reading and by at least a third in math."
Source: Poor ranking on international test misleading about U.S. student performance, Stanford researcher finds

Gosh...it's almost as if our educational ranking is greatly influenced by societal factors and if we would fix those societal factors, our education rankings would improve. Now, which one of us has been the one to argue we need to first change society to see substantial improvements in education...

Like I said earlier, minutiae changes here and there

This coming from someone unaware of one of the more significant changes in education in the past two decades, a change he himself advocated. :roll:

Most changes you keep talking about are state and local

No, not really.

we need to have one united school system where parents can expect the same amount of quality from school no matter what part of town they move to.

You mean like the Common Core program? Great idea! Now if only we could get nearly half the country (read: Republicans) to not throw a huge fit about it...

But you're right. Not a societal issue at all. :roll:

Whoopty doo we came up with charter schools and now education is a privately run business, what improvement!

Yeah, not what I'm talking about. And I'm opposed to charter schools. Unlike our current Secretary of Education. But, yes, not a societal issue at all...

Schools all over the nation implementing a bunch of differing new rules all over the place has done nothing

You are literally just making stuff up at this point. Your ignorance on education has clearly been exposed. Just stop.

Instead of saying so many stupid things, how about you ASK questions and figure out what is actually being done in education first?

 

[Slyfox696]

This part pains me just because of how simple some solutions could be. An absolute moron could come up with a slightly better system.

Your posts here show that a moron could not. And, to be clear, that's not me calling you a moron, that's me saying that people who don't know what they are talking about are not going to be able to improve education.

Let's imagine we purchased a microphone to put in every classroom, that should be about 50 million, we could pay that out over the course of a few years or quickly via a more progressive tax on income over x amount of dollars. If that sounds like too much money to spend on schools, then you would be misunderstanding how valuable that purchase would be.

So...your idea to better education is a societal fix to create a "progressive tax" for the benefit of better funding for education?

Geez...if only someone else had been arguing that...over and over again...

In middle school I had a math teacher that abused the class verbally on a regular basis. I remember one time when she called me mean and ugly in class because I had a "mean people are ugly" shirt on that day. Another time one student corrected a minor math mistake of her's and she went off on him, "I bet you were just waiting for me to make a mistake, but if I had a stack of all your mistakes it would be taller than you!" The poor kid was the smallest boy in class so everyone laughed at that one.

Cool story...but I've already said there are bad teachers. But that's not what we're talking about, now is it?

My point isn't that my teacher was bad so school is bad, my point is that it took years of complaints passed along from kids to parents to faculty to get her fired.

But she was fired? Interesting...

We have a tendency to trust the system and that leads to pitting children against the authority of adults.

Yes, because it's rare that students lie about the adults...:roll:

Instead of letting idiots like me

Your words, not mine.

grow up with a permanent low tolerance for bad apples, how about we stop making kids eat them?

Like coming up with a "progressive tax" to better fund education, a societal fix? Great idea!

Not only that, lets reinforce those teachers who work hard and care about students.

How so? Maybe financial benefits? Better insurance benefits? Funding schools so they don't have to pay for supplies out of their own pockets?

Let the students go home with recordings of the lectures so that they can retain the lessons better.

And how would you do that? Spend money on USB storage drives? Spend money on more high tech equipment so lectures and teaching can be recorded? Great idea, let's change society to better fund schools. Like I've been saying all along.

Something as small as a microphone that only turns on during class time would save kids a lot of hardships.

You are now literally arguing we need to change society's values to hold education in better esteem so we can get society to better fund education. Which is what I have been arguing from the beginning.

Do you really not see that what you are saying now is exactly what I've been saying all along?