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Public school k-12

No. If you think you made a valid point I didn't address, then post it. Since you didn't, I'll assume you'll acknowledge your ad hom attack was baseless and we can move on.

Ok. Since you didn't reread my post I assume you'll acknowledge just how much you enjoy huffing farts from sewer drains.

Stop shoving words in my mouth like I'm some senile fart that needs to be force fed alphabet soup. Gaslighting me for not reposting what you erased, when you could just go back a page, is such a lame way to start a post. Reading is easy. You as a teacher, should know that.

I have several ideas, but it doesn't matter. That's not our discussion right now. Our discussion is A) whether public education is doing a good job (and, for the most part, it is) and B) how to improve it.

I've answered A and B. You don't like my answer to B because you want to live in a fantasy world where education has never and is never changing and we can wave a wand and overnight improve education. I'm pointing out why your position is stupid. And that's our discussion.

I don't like both of your answers. Public school isn't good and you still haven't fully answered B either.

Because the "how" is not important to this discussion (though your statement here is false as I've already pointed out several things which can be done).

How is not important? Ok sure.

Filling a hypothetical car with hypothetical gasoline is not pointing out solutions to society's lack of enthusiasm, that's just a imaginary scenario. You've said nothing of substance.

Now let's see if you can go all the way with that line of thought and realize that what you are saying about education is nonsensical. Here's a hint...if you cannot figure out how parents can make a child want to learn, then how do you expect teachers, who see the child far less than the parent, to do so?

Did I not just mention a better counseling system, or do I need to repost that as well?

We do. We even have a name for the concept. It's called "differentiated instruction". Look it up. And then realize, yet again, why a teacher with a Master's degree in education is telling you that you don't know what you are talking about.

I googled it. Just found some explanations of the concept. Where is the law requiring its use in public school? Oh wait, there isn't one.

Unless my high school was breaking the law, this isn't required, it's just a thing that exists. Some teachers are encouraged to use it, some teachers are told that their paycheck depends on how many of their students pass standardized tests. That isn't a good system.

And maybe you can figure out this is already happening? That the movement of differentiated instruction has been pushed for nearly two decades?

I didn't realize it only took two decades of pushing for a problem to go away completely. So racism must have gone extinct over a hundred years ago right?

Some schools doing some nice things doesn't mean every school is good. The fight isn't over so why are you presenting an active effort as though it were an established fact of school?

You have NO idea how utterly ignorant to modern day education you sound right now. Absolutely ignorant.

So there haven't been over a million students arrested by school cops for petty behavior violations in the past two decades? Good to know when I watched an officer slam a student's head into the cafeteria table, with zero warning, that was just my imagination. He was actually just gently escorting him to a top of the line therapist's office.

Thanks for clearing that one up Mr. Adhominem!
 
Part 1 of section 2
...the ACT is not a product of the K-12 public education system. ACT is a private institution which publishes a test colleges use for admission.

Act was invented as a method to "prove" that Caucasians had a higher IQ than blacks, therefore I didn't actually have to take that ACT test to graduate, that too, was just my imagination.

Who cares where it came from? Everybody I knew had to take it, and it sucks. Its origin does not negate its impact on students and teachers. Duh.

Would you go up to a brain surgeon and tell them how to conduct a surgical operation based on something you read in a Highlights magazine? Because while I freely acknowledge my Bachelor's and Masters degrees in education were not as intense or as lengthy as what a brain surgeon has done, I can also freely tell you the things you are saying are every bit as ridiculous.

You're masters degree from an american school taught you american education is doing just super? Well call me a velociraptor's baby daddy and slap a duck, how utterly convincing!

Most students don't insist on clinging to such stupid arguments and positions. Students are willing to accept the idea that someone might know better than them and listen. You are doing no such thing. You are saying things which are flatly untrue, suggesting schools try to do something they've been doing for nearly two decades and are arguing with someone who has read more research and literature on education and learning than you will likely ever do for the rest of your life.

That research has meant nothing if you truly believe that every change to education has been both across the board and productive. Not every state has done the exact same thing, and most changes have failed miserably.

The fact I'm engaging in discourse with you at all, despite those circumstances, should show you how important education is to me.

If you wanted to "educate" me you wouldn't be such an ass about it. We're arguing right now. You've questioned my intelligence and I question yours, in what world does that convince people of anything. We're both here to vent about topics we care about, if you think you're changing lives on a debate site you're more wacko than I thought.

I'll be right back, I need to let our home economics teacher (now called Family and Consumer Science, but you probably knew that, right?) she doesn't need to come back to work because Izzy says we've eliminated her position. Just give me a second to let her know and I'll be back with you.

Your school has an economics teacher, so therefore, every other school must have one as well? Again, stunning logic.

Okay, I'm back. Sorry it took so long, but I let our Shop teacher know Izzy said we removed his position to. He was disappointed to hear it, but he understood the value in listening to someone who clearly has no idea what education is like.

You even have a shop class??? Jesus Christ do you think that's the norm? You clearly didn't attend southern public school. My state doesn't have shop class in PRIVATE schools. You sure are lucky to be where you are, please appreciate that your students have more than most.

Oh, I've see you've cut one of my positions at the school now too. I had no idea that one of my responsibilities at the school no longer exists.

Again, your kids run laps so everybody else must, real sound thought process you got going there.

Please keep saying more things, you really are opening my eyes to the world of education.

Here's a lesson you're in dire need of learning: NOT EVERY SCHOOL IS YOUR SCHOOL YOU DINGLE BERRY!

"Oh look at me I teach at a school with every class in the world, and education is consequently perfect in every district! Hur dur dur."
 
Who is giving money to the ACT?

Uhhhh, I did. Like, in order to graduate? What school district did you grow up in? Because everyone I know had to pay a private company for their public education.

I'm sure this made sense in your head, but I can assure you that is the only place this made sense.

You sure don't do much of your own thinking. I'll type it nice and big so you understand it.

HAVING A NEGATIVE OPINION ABOUT SCHOOL MEANS I WANT TO IMPROVE IT.

You were having a hard time with that so I used a racially charged movement as a parallel to what needs to be done in school. When you mentioned people fighting for differentiated instruction in school, did you think they kept a positive opinion on what they wanted changed?? Where they fighting because they loved how things were???

They all need help. The help they need is just different. Some deal with abusive home lives, some deal with friend drama, some have issues with relationships, some can't realize their dreams of sports success, etc. Every kids needs help and every kid needs to learn. Pretending they all don't need something from a teacher is ignorant.

You just finished telling me it should never be a teachers responsibility to help abused children with their home lives. But now teachers need to investigate every aspect of every student's life? Make up your mind.

Saying that 0 students make it through school without needing a special talk from their teacher is just not true. If you really think that 100% of kids need more than they're currently getting out of school, then maybe we should... make school better.

Oh wait the only solution is to have a good attitude, never-mind.

Then it's a good thing education has been working in that direction for nearly two decades, huh?

You can keep acting like the efforts of some people have drastically changed teaching in every school in America, but I never took any test to determine how I would learn best. High school for me, and all my friends, was mostly just a blur of powerpoints and lectures. We didn't have hands on learning. Teachers never tried to understand me better, so don't tell me that school has already been fixed and every kid is taken care of, not right after you admitted they all need more out of their education.

While all of our counselors are trained in counseling, you DO make a great point here. Of course, the point you are making is that society should provide more money to schools to hire more highly trained individuals, so the point you're making is EXACTLY the one I'm making.

No it is not the same point. I came to this thread to talk to people about what they think might work, all you've done is tell me that a plan means nothing without effort.

If you want to go on a date, do you drive to a random restaurant, then text her asking where she wants to eat? We need a plan to rally the troops around, you seem to think people will just get excited about school reform if we call them ignorant enough. This thread is so we could make a plan, but you have only been ranting about how we need to jump in with no organization and get every american pumped about school.

Not only have you argued against planning, you also don't have a plan for the only thing you've advocated for. If you want people to change their attitude about school then think up a solution, don't just go around yelling about how your plan is better but nobody deserves to hear it. Explain yourself Mr. I'mheretoeducateyou!

What if, and just hear me out on this, society was changed to accommodate those people better? What if we changed our opinion on the importance of education and made a concerted effort to ensure parents made enough money that they didn't have to work multiple jobs?

That'd be great. School still needs to change.
 
You mean a country which highly values education and its teachers?

Yes. That is the one and only difference in our education systems. Their appreciation of teachers.

Forget the 3 hour school days for elementary schoolers! Forget the lack of homework! Forget that it is illegal to teach students to different standards!

The absolute only thing different about our two nation's school systems, is attitude. Great point, you absolute all-knowing god.

Great point! But, again, it's the point I've been making all along. So...

So... where was your post that referenced finland? Vaguely stating how attitude is more important than change, is in no way the same point I was making. Don't take credit for that idea, you have not mentioned their education system once in this thread.

So you want the USA to be like Finland, just not in the way that makes Finland what you seek to emulate? Okay, great argument.[/QUOTE

Again, thanks for pointing out that the absolute only difference between us and Finland is attitude, nothing more.

Yes, because when my good friend in school sat in his mother's living room while her live-in boyfriend drunkenly fired a gun which left a bullet hole six inches from his ear, it is TOTALLY the fault of the school system that my friend was not happy or motivated to learn for a few days.

Great point, Izzy.

I will concede that teachers cannot solve every problem in a students life. But if you think better consoling couldn't have helped your friend, even just a little, then you're not at all concerned with mental well being. We can do better, don't act like me wanting more opportunities for happiness was a direct attack at your friend I don't know.

I've helped friends of my own through traumatic home lives. It would have been real nice to have had a mental health program in school that I trusted enough to escort them to. Instead their parents payed out of pocket for a few sessions before realizing they cared more about their bank account than their child.

Mental health should be gov. funded for adults as well as children. We need more, I know you agree, so can we just come up with some solutions before going off half cocked please?
 
Don't have to, not the point of this discussion. Start another thread if you'd like to hear my thoughts (you know, more than the ones I've already given).

Great. Start a thread.

Bet.

Do you really not understand how you keep agreeing with me that to improve education we need to improve society?

I want a plan, you want to get people pumped for school without one. Big difference.

The ignorance of this statement is so incredible. How would you determine the "bad" teacher to make this work? Would all the new teachers be "bad"? Would all the teachers who deal with the less motivated students be "bad"? And if you move those less motivated students to the "good" teachers, would those good teachers now be bad?

See, this is what I'm talking about. You don't understand what you are saying. Moving kids until they find a "good" teacher is just stupid. There are bad teachers out there, but the criteria for that is far different than what you believe.

Jesus dude, I just want kids to be able to opt out of a class. I had a teacher that I hated, I tried to get moved, nothing happened.

Kids shouldn't be stuck in a position that makes them care less about school, if you mean any of what you've said, you should agree that students need the freedom to seek out a better education.

Sure there is...create a society that values education and teaching to encourage more talented people to go into teaching, while also providing greater funding for schools so those talented teachers can feel supported by both parents and funding.

You know...exactly what I've been saying from the beginning.

Now you want to create an entirely new nation? How off the rails are we gunna get?

Let's start with things that need to change, then we can convince people to care more. We can't just yell until people care. We need a structure to follow that doesn't involve nuking the U.S. and starting from scratch.

"Based on their analysis, the co-authors found that average U.S. scores in reading and math on the PISA are low partly because a disproportionately greater share of U.S. students comes from disadvantaged social class groups, whose performance is relatively low in every country.

As part of the study, Carnoy and Rothstein calculated how international rankings on the most recent PISA might change if the United States had a social class composition similar to that of top-ranking nations: U.S. rankings would rise to sixth from 14[SUP]th[/SUP] in reading and to 13[SUP]th[/SUP] from 25[SUP]th[/SUP] in math. The gap between U.S. students and those from the highest-achieving countries would be cut in half in reading and by at least a third in math."
Source: Poor ranking on international test misleading about U.S. student performance, Stanford researcher finds

Gosh...it's almost as if our educational ranking is greatly influenced by societal factors and if we would fix those societal factors, our education rankings would improve. Now, which one of us has been the one to argue we need to first change society to see substantial improvements in education...

You couldn't bother to watch a short video I posted. I'm not reading about how social class affects students grades when you won't acknowledge that black kids have been getting kicked out of school left and right.

I tried to mention how we punish kids for their failures to adhere to our social rules. You laughed it off.

If I had a larger character limit, I would have taken the time to explain how black students are disproportionately punished with those suspensions I mentioned earlier. Forgive me for assuming you understood that already. It clearly backfired, and now you're using one of the injustices of schooling that I should have mentioned, to prove to me that we can't make school life better until we solve our social class structure. I already agree that school is not the only thing about america that sucks dong.

The issue you here is you're using one of the ways school sucks, to explain how school doesn't suck as bad as I thought.

"We actually ranked 30th because we're struggling with racism, sooo basically that means it didn't count."

You are literally just making stuff up at this point. Your ignorance on education has clearly been exposed. Just stop.

Instead of saying so many stupid things, how about you ASK questions and figure out what is actually being done in education first?

Okey dokey. Will you pretty please explain to me every major school change that occurred nation wide and the full extent of their impact?

If that's too much just explain a few.
 
So...your idea to better education is a societal fix to create a "progressive tax" for the benefit of better funding for education?

Geez...if only someone else had been arguing that...over and over again...

Yes I remember quite clearly when I asked how you wanted to implement change, you responded with, "a progressive tax." You defiantly didn't tell me the how wasn't important.

But she was fired? Interesting...

Yes, YEARS after I left middle school. After she had already talked smack to over a thousand 11 year olds. I won't accuse you of condoning child abuse, like how you did to me, but it is absolutely cold and unfeeling to react that way.

"Oh a teacher that took out her aggression out on students? At least she only worked as a teacher for more than two decades!"

How ducking inhumane.

Yes, because it's rare that students lie about the adults...:roll:

Roll your eyes at the kid pleading that he isn't lying. Roll your eyes as he breaks down with every adult in the room against him. I present a plan to prevent children from falling prey to an adult's abuse of authority and your response is that we should trust kids less?

Dude, adults lie every day, don't pretend that once you turn 18 you lose the ability to be a piece of poop doodoo.

Like coming up with a "progressive tax" to better fund education, a societal fix? Great idea!

Whoa whoa slow your role bud, you have to go convince every american that's a good idea first before you present it as a good idea.

See how frustrating you've been?

How so? Maybe financial benefits? Better insurance benefits? Funding schools so they don't have to pay for supplies out of their own pockets?

Yes, thank you for spit balling some decent ideas. The only thing I wanted from this thread. I cannot believe it took like two weeks of circular arguing for you to present some actual ideas.

And how would you do that? Spend money on USB storage drives? Spend money on more high tech equipment so lectures and teaching can be recorded? Great idea, let's change society to better fund schools. Like I've been saying all along.

How are you a teacher and you don't know how to email a file? Spend money on USBs!? Lol is this the early 2000s? Google drive is a thing. I just did the math for that "high tech equipment" (they're called microphones btw) at the top of that post.

You're making up reasons to disagree with a hypothetical solution I came up with in like 2 minutes.

You are now literally arguing we need to change society's values to hold education in better esteem so we can get society to better fund education. Which is what I have been arguing from the beginning.

No dude I just presented a hypothetical solution, never mentioned making everyone agree with me. Why are you so unable to move on to a different topic? It isn't dangerous to talk about the hows of this effort. It would be really constructive in fact if you would just participate again like you did a few lines ago.

Do you really not see that what you are saying now is exactly what I've been saying all along?

Oh my god, saying we need a new attitude every single post is not the same as presenting ideas that are worth changing minds for. I'm trying to talk about hypothetical solutions, but the only one you presented was that weird car thing.

How does changing attitudes solve this anyways? We would still need to restructure taxes, but wait we can't do that until we get rid of electoral college, but wait we can't do that without changing attitudes about both, but wait how are we gunna convince people to help us convince people???

It is so much easier to stay on topic. So either talk with me about school reform, or just shut up and wait until I make your special hand tailored thread all about how to implement change.
 
General education has largely functioned the same as it traditionally had, because higher education continues to largely function as it had. Higher education continues to largely function as it has, because the economy hasn't given people much of a clue as to how it could proceed differently. The economy hasn't inspired change below, because every 4-5 years people's perspective on the future of the economy and the needs of business are in flux.

What do you expect people to do with echochamber angst if no one can give you answers about what they want?

We can make small changes here or there. Sometimes those individual changes are quite a bit to deal with for an institution, but those changes themselves do not account for a massive redesign of an entire philosophy of service delivery.
 
So instead of doing anything to our perfect and righteous school system, we need to end all rape? Child abuse doesn't make schools bad, it makes students more vulnerable to an absent minded system that ignores them every day. We're trying to make a school system where victims of abuse can feel safe to approach teachers, but you want us to focus on ending all abuse??? Screw your gas and engine argument, it doesn't matter how much gas you pour in if the engine is bad!

"Yeah school not great but rape is a thing so clearly school is perfect hur dur"

You can't just point out that some kids are unhappy because of their parents and use that as a reason to justify abuses in school. We can address both issues, this isn't an "either or" argument. A BETTER SCHOOL SYSTEM MAKES A BETTER SOCIETY! If you want to change how people think about school, what better way than making a school system that shows compassion? Is your solution to just put up a bunch of anti-abuse posters?

You're acting as though it's easier to change a society than it is to change school. Even though the most effective method for change is education..

I've seen enough to know that a lot of the teaching and administrative profession side-step the ways that they contribute to negative social outcomes, most notably the school-to-prison pipeline; I've seen enough to know that there is of course a lot of issues at home or in the community that affect kids; I've seen enough to know that there's a lot going on in a kid's head that is independent of stuff going on with family, community, or school; and I have seen enough to know there's plenty of stuff that could be improved that deals nothing with great tragedy or trauma.

But, at the end of the day, what's people's expectations for what a good education system looks like? What's the ****ed up stuff, what's the stuff that can happen? A lot of the time, I really don't think people have thought this through beyond "blarg, I don't like _____."
 
They took out home ec now millennials are the least prepared generation to do any kind of cooking or manual labor. That is a failure. Taking out wood shop and P.E. so you can give more money to ACT doesn't somehow make kids better at life, quite the opposite actually. And as for the "negativity" bs, there was a lot of negativity around slavery right before they got freed, so please stop acting like having a negative opinion on something as important as school is the same thing as ignoring it. We wan't better school, you're whiny butt wants a better whole ass america.

Let's put aside the notion that there is a variability in what courses are required and that life skills courses, such as they are, still exist in varying forms in a lot of your public schools (schools that have resource and faculty shortages, notwithstanding).

What kind of graduate do you want--what do you want them to know by the time they turn 18, and what do you want them to know by the time they turn 16 in case they drop-out of school?

Over the last 40 years we have spent a great deal of time going back and forth about what they should know, how they should know it, and how much time they should know it in. As a result of each decade's priorities, certain subjects get elevated, others get pushed down, the rest tend to stay stagnant. Do you want them to be very in tune with history and civics? Or perhaps it's reading, writing, and math? Do you think they need to be "college and career ready?" Perhaps we need to make our students prepared to embark on a technology-dominated 21st century marketplace? Do you think our kids need more physical activity? Do you think they need more applicable life skills? Have we depreciated social and emotional learning? Do you think we start school too early and/or have to make sure that our kids are not working too late?

And if you want to substantially redesign the way that we structure a student's required courses in K-12 (something that was largely reformed in the late 1980s, by the way), do you really have the confidence to know how it should look for at least the next 20+ years and not look like a fool for proposing it just a few years later? [This is not to mention that a lot of this is tied up in federal legislation as well, by the way].

Each of these things takes years of social and political work to get moving. By the time you get there, a competing goal is likely to emerge, resources are probably slim, stakeholder buy-in haphazard at best, or was lip service support from district or state administrators. Then, if you want to make something mandatory, you have to make the choice about what gets tossed out, and you can guarantee that there is likely merit to keeping that thing in place.
 
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Let's put aside the notion that there is a variability in what courses are required and that life skills courses, such as they are, still exist in varying forms in a lot of your public schools (schools that have resource and faculty shortages, notwithstanding).

What kind of graduate do you want--what do you want them to know by the time they turn 18, and what do you want them to know by the time they turn 16 in case they drop-out of school?

Over the last 40 years we have spent a great deal of time going back and forth about what they should know, how they should know it, and how much time they should know it in. As a result of each decade's priorities, certain subjects get elevated, others get pushed down, the rest tend to stay stagnant. Do you want them to be very in tune with history and civics? Or perhaps it's reading, writing, and math? Do you think they need to be "college and career ready?" Perhaps we need to make our students prepared to embark on a technology-dominated 21st century marketplace? Do you think our kids need more physical activity? Do you think they need more applicable life skills? Have we depreciated social and emotional learning? Do you think we start school too early and/or have to make sure that our kids are not working too late?

And if you want to substantially redesign the way that we structure a student's required courses in K-12 (something that was largely reformed in the late 1980s, by the way), do you really have the confidence to know how it should look for at least the next 20+ years and not look like a fool for proposing it just a few years later? [This is not to mention that a lot of this is tied up in federal legislation as well, by the way].

Each of these things takes years of social and political work to get moving. By the time you get there, a competing goal is likely to emerge, resources are probably slim, stakeholder buy-in haphazard at best, or was lip service support from district or state administrators. Then, if you want to make something mandatory, you have to make the choice about what gets tossed out, and you can guarantee that there is likely merit to keeping that thing in place.

For whatever its worth, most people are going to be into one or some things and not others so IMO it is really about creating an atmosphere in which students can really dig deep into whatever grabs onto them and use that to "learn to learn" so to speak for the other things. Too much teaching the test going on now. But for my former point, I just got math and loved reading/literature. I really hated science. Like really really hated science except for Physics and QPS because of all the math. In organic chemistry in college I was a master at doing the math. Didn't understand a damn thing about the rest, but I got the math. Anyway, I learned how to decide what was important in tests and how to memorize long enough to puke back up what I needed to to do well in biology, anatomy, etc.
 
Ok. Since you didn't reread my post I assume you'll acknowledge just how much you enjoy huffing farts from sewer drains.
You didn't say that. Are you now making up things you didn't say because you know you didn't make a relevant point I didn't address?

Gaslighting me for not reposting what you erased
False. I'm saying I replied to everything your post which needed a reply. If you think there is something valid to which I didn't reply, then re-post it and I'll address it. Your refusal to do so suggests you know that didn't happen.

when you could just go back a page
Why would I go back a page when I feel I already replied to everything worth replying? What don't you get about this simple concept? Or is it that you are pretending to not get it because you know you're blowing smoke?

Reading is easy.
So is copy and paste. And since I already read and replied to what I thought was important, it's now on you to re-post something if you think it was valid. Pretty "easy" really.

I don't like both of your answers.
Who cares? You're someone who has shown he/she is completely ignorant to the world of education.

Public school isn't good and you still haven't fully answered B either.
Both false.

How is not important?
Not in this discussion.

Filling a hypothetical car with hypothetical gasoline is not pointing out solutions to society's lack of enthusiasm, that's just a imaginary scenario. You've said nothing of substance.
:lamo

Now you're resorting to blatant lies. That's when you know you've lost the debate.

Did I not just mention a better counseling system, or do I need to repost that as well?
And did I not just address that, by saying to do that you need society to better fund schools, like I've been saying all along? Do I need to repost that?

I'm now openly laughing at the ridiculousness of this post of yours.

I googled it. Just found some explanations of the concept.
Exactly. You have been ignorant to one of the most important trends in education for the last two decades, yet you seem to think you have any credibility on the quality of public schools.

Just stop. You are way out of your league arguing with me.

Where is the law requiring its use in public school? Oh wait, there isn't one.
So what you're saying is public education is constantly adapting its model voluntarily based on quality research? Like I have repeatedly told you? And you want it to become law, which is a societal function?

Seriously, just stop. You do not have to embarrass yourself like this.

Unless my high school was breaking the law, this isn't required, it's just a thing that exists.
Right...it exists, thus disproving the vast majority of your ignorant criticisms.

I didn't realize it only took two decades of pushing for a problem to go away completely.
Uh, who said the problem has gone away completely? Why are you saying so many stupid things? Why can not just admit you have no idea what you are talking about?

I mentioned differentiated instruction to show that A) what you proposed has already been in use for two decades (thereby satisfying one of your erroneous criticisms and exposing your ignorance) and B) that education is constantly evolving and adapting and remaking itself.

What has happened in this thread is you came in with a preconceived idea and you are refusing to accept that someone with far more training and experience knows more than you do about a subject he is trained and experienced in. This is leading you to saying increasingly stupid, and self-defeating, things because your ego cannot simply accept you were wrong.

Some schools doing some nice things doesn't mean every school is good.
No one said all schools are good. What I am saying is that if you want to significantly improve education, that can only be done through a change in society.

Are you having trouble remembering things I've actually said and can go back and read?

The fight isn't over so why are you presenting an active effort as though it were an established fact of school?
Because you stupidly posited the idea education hasn't changed in the last X number of years. I'm proving you wrong.

Why are you struggling with this?

So there haven't been over a million students arrested by school cops for petty behavior violations in the past two decades?
I'm saying your description of education is woefully ignorant. Expelling or even suspending a student from school after two minor transgressions in the classroom? That's so patently stupid I didn't waste my time replying to it in any depth.

Stop posting, unless you want to start asking. Because every post you make is getting stupider than the last.
 
Post 2, Part 1
Act was invented as a method to "prove" that Caucasians had a higher IQ than blacks, therefore I didn't actually have to take that ACT test to graduate, that too, was just my imagination.
What the hell are you babbling about? How does any of the nonsense you just said change what I said?

Who cares where it came from?
Anyone honest in this discussion? Because since it is not a product of public education, you bringing it up is either stupid or dishonest, depending on your reason for doing so?
Everybody I knew had to take it, and it sucks.
Who forced you to take it? Was it required by law, a societal function? And how exactly does taking the ACT change...anything...to do with teaching?

Its origin does not negate its impact on students and teachers. Duh.
But it does destroy the narrative you were pushing. Duh.

Also, how old are you? I'm curious when you went through school and was forced to take it.

You're masters degree from an american school taught you american education is doing just super?
No, my Master's degree taught me about what is happening in the world of education, which is how I know your posts are full of garbage.

Well call me a velociraptor's baby daddy and slap a duck, how utterly convincing!
Your increasing lack of honesty in this discussion is quite telling as to how badly you know you are overmatched.

That research has meant nothing if you truly believe that every change to education has been both across the board and productive.
:lamo
This coming from someone who quite literally just used anecdotal evidence of him/herself to try and make a point.

Across the board? Generally yes. Has every change been productive? No, there has been initiatives which have been researched and put to the test, only to show success is either irregular or limited to specific circumstances. One to one computing is a great example of that. If you'd like, I'd be more than happy to provide you with a plethora of resources on the topic (haha, just kidding, we both know you have no desire to research the topic you're posting).

But the argument YOU were making is that education has always done the same thing and never changes, and that's just unequivocally false. Education is constantly changing and adapting and trying to be better, despite your ignorant accusations to the contrary.

Not every state has done the exact same thing, and most changes have failed miserably.
:lamo

What are you basing that on? Hell, one of the most significant changes is one YOU suggested. Are you saying you are a failure in trying to change education? Because I would agree with that statement.

If you wanted to "educate" me you wouldn't be such an ass about it.
Stop posting lies and falsehoods and spend more time trying to learn and I'll happily educate you in a less harsh manner. But you don't want to be educated, you want to spew your ignorant venom everywhere.

We're arguing right now. You've questioned my intelligence
I don't think I have. I've called you ignorant on the topic and have called your posts stupid, but I don't think I directly questioned your intelligence. Though, to be clear, it would not surprise me if I have, given the nature of your posts in this thread.

We're both here to vent about topics we care about, if you think you're changing lives on a debate site you're more wacko than I thought.
I'd prefer not to vent, but if you're going to keep saying stupid things...

I'm not here to change your life. I'm here for my own amusement. However, at the same time, I am affording you an opportunity to become educated on a topic you clearly know next to nothing about. But rather than take the time to learn why so much of your hostility is based on ignorance, you are choosing to remain ignorant so you can remain hostile. That's just stupid and, yes, I do question the intelligence of anyone who would choose to remain ignorant so they can remain angry rather than take the time to become educated on a topic and have a fact based discussion.
 
Post 2, Part 2

Your school has an economics teacher
We have a FACS teacher. Like I said. Good God, do you bother to comprehend what you read before you reply?

, so therefore, every other school must have one as well?
No, I'm sure not every school has one. But you said "they took out home ec" and since MOST schools have a FACS program, that means you were, once again, speaking ignorantly.

You even have a shop class??? Jesus Christ do you think that's the norm?
It is fairly common, yes. However, any reduction in shop classes has been based on funding from the state which is, once again, a societal issue.

How do you not see this painfully obvious thing?

You clearly didn't attend southern public school.
:lamo

I guess it depends on how "southern" you're talking. But hey, way to make my point again...this time you did so by suggesting "southern" school culture doesn't value shop class...which means, once again, if you want shop class, change society.

I have lost track of how many self-owns you have now provided...are we in the double digits now?

My state doesn't have shop class in PRIVATE schools.
...the fact you think you just made a point here kind of proves what I'm saying about your ignorance of education.

Again, your kids run laps so everybody else must, real sound thought process you got going there.
"39 states have formal laws requiring physical education in elementary schools"

What's funny is the level of self-own here. Because in YOUR experience some schools don't have required physical education, that must mean everyone else must not as well. Of course, with nearly 80% of the country having physical education by law, it kind of makes your self-own obvious.

Here's a lesson you're in dire need of learning: NOT EVERY SCHOOL IS YOUR SCHOOL YOU DINGLE BERRY!
Next time you say that, do so in front of a mirror. You'll get way more value out of it.
 
Post 3, Part 1
Uhhhh, I did. Like, in order to graduate?
Aww, look at you dishonestly moving the goalposts. Let's review your actual comment:

You: They took out home ec now millennials are the least prepared generation to do any kind of cooking or manual labor. That is a failure. Taking out wood shop and P.E. so you can give more money to ACT doesn't somehow make kids better at life

See, you claimed schools took out "home ec" "wood shop and P.E" to give more money to ACT. So what schools are giving money they previously had for "home ec" "wood shop and P.E." to the ACT? That was my question. Don't dishonestly duck it this time please.

What school district did you grow up in? Because everyone I know had to pay a private company for their public education.
Well, first of all, the ACT and SAT are college readiness tests. So I paid to take the ACT because I planned to go to college and in order to get into college (as well as earn my scholarships which paid for my college), I needed to take the ACT. However, had I not wanted to go to college, I would not have had to pay. With that said, I know some states require the ACT but my state (and many others who require it) ensured the ACT test was provided for free to students.

So what you're saying is that you HAD to take the ACT AND had to pay for it yourself. I won't question that, I don't know every state law on the subject. However, regardless of whether that is the case or not, it doesn't change the fact the SCHOOLS are not paying the ACT, which is what you were claiming. As such, money is not being taken away from other areas of the school. And if it is being required by the state, then that is a societal issue, as are any laws related to public education.

So, again, no matter how you slice it, your issues here are not (or at least should not be) with public education.

You sure don't do much of your own thinking.
Says the person who is actively rejecting copious information from a trained professional in regards to the area in which the professional was trained. :roll:
I'll type it nice and big so you understand it.
Great, I cannot wait to hear how slavery has anything to do with public education in 2020. Lay it on me.

HAVING A NEGATIVE OPINION ABOUT SCHOOL MEANS I WANT TO IMPROVE IT.
....cool? I have a positive opinion about school and I want to improve it to. What does that have to do with slavery?

Of course, we both know the answer is "nothing" and that was the point I was making about it sounding better in your head, but whatever.

You were having a hard time with that so I used a racially charged movement as a parallel to what needs to be done in school.
You know what! I think I get it now!

You see, slavery was a societal evil and the only way slavery was improved/eliminated was by a change in societal values.

So what you're saying is that to improve education, we have to change societal values regarding education! Great point! If only I had thought to say that...15 times in this thread alone...

You just finished telling me it should never be a teachers responsibility to help abused children with their home lives.
No, I didn't. Because that is not true. In fact, every state (I believe) has mandatory reporting laws where if a teacher becomes aware of abuse they have to report it.

Why are you posting such stupid lies about things I have obviously never said nor will ever say? What I said is that with anywhere from 120-150 students every day, what you were saying is practically impossible. Because it is impossible, the change for these things need to happen outside the school.

But now teachers need to investigate every aspect of every student's life? Make up your mind.
You are literally making things up out of thin air. Are you really this scared to admit how wrong you are?

Saying that 0 students make it through school without needing a special talk from their teacher is just not true.
And you know this from your...how many years of experience in school as an educator?

You can keep acting like the efforts of some people have drastically changed teaching in every school in America
I'm not. I'm pointing out that you're wrong when you say education hasn't changed. Differentiated instruction is just one example. So is the increase in computing devices. There are countless more.

If you think teaching today is the same as it was in 1950, then you are just willfully ignorant.

but I never took any test to determine how I would learn best.
....so, to be clear, you want to take a standardized test to find out how you are unique? :lol:
 
Post 3, Part 2

High school for me, and all my friends, was mostly just a blur of powerpoints and lectures.
It's so funny how you spend so much time claiming my experience in education is not the universal experience...only to keep telling me anecdotal evidence about YOUR school.

We didn't have hands on learning.
So you never did experiments in science class? Never once? You never were required to do a book report? Didn't have to create your own slideshow presentation? You never were required to paste things to a poster board? Never had a single group project? Never went to a computer lab for research for a paper?

You just sat and watched Powerpoints and listened to lectures in every class of every day for four years? You'll have to excuse me, but I'm rather skeptical. Also, I find it cool they did PowerPoint in the 1950s. I was not aware of that.

Teachers never tried to understand me better, so don't tell me that school has already been fixed
Oh, look, you are using your own experience of one person to make claims about education universally.

The self-owns just keep racking up.

and every kid is taken care of, not right after you admitted they all need more out of their education.
I never said any such thing. I'm saying that public education is doing a good job and is constantly changing and adapting. I've never once said EVERY single child is given the perfect education. You resorting to such obvious fallacies shows your increasing desperation to preserve your ego in a discussion you've clearly lost.

No it is not the same point.
It quite literally is EXACTLY the same point. You wanted trained therapists in schools. That requires money, money schools don't receive. In order to get trained therapists, you need to change society to value education enough to fund trained therapists (more than already exist, since many schools do have them already) in schools.

It is exactly the same point. What's amusing is you now have the opportunity to preserve your ego and just acknowledge that your thinking was a little limited in the whole "change society" scheme of things, but you of course don't do that.

I came to this thread to talk to people about what they think might work, all you've done is tell me that a plan means nothing without effort.
I'm telling you education is constantly adapting, constantly seeking to improve. I'm telling you public education mostly does a good job with most students, but in order to significantly improve it further, it requires a change in societal value.

That's what I've told you. Since then, you have made NUMEROUS comments which show your ignorance to the fact education is constantly adapting, only to later acknowledge that it is. You say changing society isn't what education needs...but then keep listing numerous scenarios where changing society is necessary.

But you are too stubborn to accept that I'm right, so you refuse to accept a situation where what you are saying can also be right. You are literally contradicting yourself at this point.

This thread is so we could make a plan

Make a plan? Wasn't it you who just said this, "if you think you're changing lives on a debate site you're more wacko than I thought"??

My God, the amount of self-owns you are providing is cracking me up.

Not only have you argued against planning
I haven't argued against planning anything. I'm pointing out how stupid the things you are posting are.

you also don't have a plan for the only thing you've advocated for.
Oh, really? So I haven't suggested increased funding for education?

If you want people to change their attitude about school then think up a solution
No solution exists so long as nearly half the country steadfastly belongs to a political party which actively works to undermine public education. I already told you that.
 
Last edited:
Yes. That is the one and only difference in our education systems. Their appreciation of teachers.
It is often recognized as one of the more important differences, yes. Is it the only? Of course not. Is it a fundamental and important aspect of their society that education is important? Absolutely.

Perhaps we should try that here.

Forget the 3 hour school days for elementary schoolers! Forget the lack of homework! Forget that it is illegal to teach students to different standards!

The absolute only thing different about our two nation's school systems, is attitude. Great point, you absolute all-knowing god.
It's hilarious how you are so ignorant to the topic you are constantly having to resort to absurd fallacies to try and score debate points, as if anyone cannot see how desperate it looks.

So... where was your post that referenced finland?
Why do I have to reference Finland to make the point that America needs to more highly value education???

Seriously, what stupidity is this?

Vaguely stating how attitude is more important than change
The fact you think my position isn't centered around change is hilarious. I want change...I want societal change. As I have said repeatedly.

Don't take credit for that idea, you have not mentioned their education system once in this thread.
Seriously, what the hell are you babbling about? Do you even know?

I will concede that teachers cannot solve every problem in a students life.
Yeah, like I said a long time ago. Which means your position that teachers should be able to overcome issues which are more important to the chlid than school is simply wishful thinking.

But if you think better consoling couldn't have helped your friend, even just a little, then you're not at all concerned with mental well being.
Uh, no one said "better" wouldn't help "something". But that wasn't the point we were discussing. When my friend came to school, his concern for the Pythagorean Theorem just didn't rank nearly as high as what he would be walking home to after basketball practice. And no teacher could ever change that.

I've helped friends of my own through traumatic home lives. It would have been real nice to have had a mental health program in school that I trusted enough to escort them to.
Then you should be on my side and agree that we should work to change society to better value mental health in schools and fund it appropriately.

Instead, you are arguing with me because your ego cannot stand the fact I have been right all along.

Instead their parents payed out of pocket for a few sessions before realizing they cared more about their bank account than their child.
And that's awful...but you were claiming earlier that teachers are somehow supposed to just magically make that child learn like he's the second coming of Albert Einstein. And that's absurd, no teacher with 120 students a day has that possibility.

Of course, if we drastically changed society's values towards education, instilled in our children how important it is, and did so by, in addition to other things, increasing funding for schools, then maybe the teacher would have fewer students in the day and more time to work individually with your friend.

Mental health should be gov. funded for adults as well as children. We need more, I know you agree
Agreed.
 
Part 1
I want a plan, you want to get people pumped for school without one. Big difference.
Pumped for school are your words, not mine. The only question is whether you are misrepresenting my position dishonestly or ignorantly.

Jesus dude, I just want kids to be able to opt out of a class.
And I'm pointing out that you clearly have never stopped to consider the enormity of that kind of structural change.

You're looking at it from your own point of view. I'm looking at it from a macro point of view. Mine point of view is more important in the context of this discussion. We have to look at the big picture, not your individual issue.

I had a teacher that I hated, I tried to get moved, nothing happened.
Same here. :shrug:

Kids shouldn't be stuck in a position that makes them care less about school, if you mean any of what you've said, you should agree that students need the freedom to seek out a better education.
I do not agree because you do not understand what you are saying.

We agree we don't want kids in a position where the school itself is somehow causing the child to not like school. But "the freedom to seek out a better education"...have you ever stopped to consider just how impossible that really is, not to mention discriminatory and self-defeating?

Now you want to create an entirely new nation?
Do...do you really think the word nation is interchangeable with society? Really?

Let's start with things that need to change, then we can convince people to care more.
People more highly valuing education IS the thing that needs to change. You yourself have noticed this, but you refuse to accept it.

I'm not reading about how social class affects students grades
:lamo:lamo

"I refuse to read anything where research proves what I'm saying is stupid because then I can't keep saying stupid things." -Izzy

Great position there Izzy, you're really convincing me all your posts are about "creating a plan" and not you just trying to soothe your ego.

Anyways, to all those who have an ounce of integrity, the point is pretty clear. The societal makeup of our country is actively hindering our ability to educate our children with regards to test scores.

I tried to mention how we punish kids for their failures to adhere to our social rules. You laughed it off.
No, I laughed off the idea we kicked them out of school for two minor in class transgressions. I laughed it off because it was stupid.

No, I 100% agree schools work to teach children societal norms and punish those who do not comply. That's actually a function of school almost everyone agrees is good, since society itself is built around the idea of following laws. However, to claim we kick them out of schools for two minor transgressions is just stupid and deserves to be laughed at.
 
Part 2

If I had a larger character limit
Oh, I feel you there...

I would have taken the time to explain how black students are disproportionately punished with those suspensions I mentioned earlier.
I agree statistics show racial disparity in punishment, not just with black students but also Hispanic students. If I remember correctly, white students get punished more than Asian students (though it has been a couple years and that may not be accurate).

But they aren't suspended for two minor transgressions in a classroom. That's stupid.

Forgive me for assuming you understood that already.
I do. Even included it in one of my Master class papers. But...we were never discussing racial makeup in education, so I'm not sure what the hell you're babbling about now. You said the US ranks lower in education and I posted a study which shows that, when societal factors are evened out, the United States public education system ranks highly in the world.

It clearly backfired, and now you're using one of the injustices of schooling that I should have mentioned, to prove to me that we can't make school life better until we solve our social class structure. I already agree that school is not the only thing about america that sucks dong.
Yes, and we have research which shows abnormal societal factors negatively influence education in America. Geez, if only someone would think to propose societal changes might improve education...

The issue you here is you're using one of the ways school sucks, to explain how school doesn't suck as bad as I thought.

"We actually ranked 30th because we're struggling with racism, sooo basically that means it didn't count."
Schools don't create racism...that's a societal issue. Also, I didn't say anything about racism, I was talking about economic level (which, agreed, minorities disproportionately makeup lower class individuals, but that does not mean I was making a racism argument).

I feel like you are so utterly flummoxed by this discussion you're just ranting any stupid thing which comes into your head at this point. As I have told you before...just stop.

Okey dokey. Will you pretty please explain to me every major school change that occurred nation wide and the full extent of their impact?
If that's too much just explain a few.
I've already provided you with multiple examples (such as differentiated instructed and one to one computing). Other places you could start your own research would be Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) and Title IX (which, admittedly, are both federal laws, but are still changes in education), Bloom and Marzano's taxonomies, flipped classrooms, Common Core and related materials, teaching of digital citizenship and anti-bullying campaigns, etc.

Combined with some I have already provided, that should get you off to a good start. There are more (for example, our elementary school recently worked to rebrand itself as PLC), but those should be a good start.
 
Part 1
Yes I remember quite clearly when I asked how you wanted to implement change, you responded with, "a progressive tax." You defiantly didn't tell me the how wasn't important.
A progressive tax would be a societal change. Which is what I have been saying from the beginning.

How do you not understand this basic concept?

Yes, YEARS after I left middle school.
But she was fired, correct?

Roll your eyes at the kid pleading that he isn't lying. Roll your eyes as he breaks down with every adult in the room against him. I present a plan to prevent children from falling prey to an adult's abuse of authority and your response is that we should trust kids less?

Dude, adults lie every day, don't pretend that once you turn 18 you lose the ability to be a piece of poop doodoo.
Of course adults lie. But so do students and they do it often. I've known several teachers who have been falsely accused, myself included. In my case, both video evidence and the fact I had kept another student with me kept the false accusation from being anything more than a momentary blip on my radar, but when you're accused of assaulting a student, it does tend to stick with you. And I've known several teachers who have been so accused, both formally and informally on social media.

Whoa whoa slow your role bud, you have to go convince every american that's a good idea first before you present it as a good idea.

See how frustrating you've been?
No, you not getting the point is not me being frustrating. You LITERALLY just advocated for what I've been saying all along, which is that we need to change societal values towards education to see meaningful improvements in education. And then, when you are asked to present YOUR ideas, your ideas are either things education is already doing or things I have already advocated for.

Again, you keep owning yourself in this debate.

Yes, thank you for spit balling some decent ideas. The only thing I wanted from this thread. I cannot believe it took like two weeks of circular arguing for you to present some actual ideas.
All of those things require societal changes in attitudes towards education. Which I have said from the beginning.

There hasn't been circular arguing, there has been me providing you with facts and truth and you ignoring it.

How are you a teacher and you don't know how to email a file?
You think all of my students have a computer? That they all have the Internet at home?

This is what I am talking about. You have no idea how ridiculous the things you are saying are because you don't have to deal with it.

Spend money on USBs!? Lol is this the early 2000s? Google drive is a thing.
Google Drive requires Internet access to both view and edit. How does that help our poorer students who don't have Internet? Do you even realize that your recommendation here is discriminatory against low income families, which we already discussed are more likely to suffer from poor education in the first place? Do you realize that not only are you making education worse for those who need it the most, you are also increasing the "digital divide" which not only hurts their education but also discourages them from having a positive interaction with their school, something you claimed earlier was important?

See, this is what happens when the ignorant (you) try to discuss with the trained and educated (me). You say a bunch of stupid things because you have ZERO idea how those ideas would work in practice, as if no one else before you could have ever considered them.

I've told you before and I've told you again. Stop saying stupid things. If you have questions, ask. Otherwise, just stop.
 
Part 2

I just did the math for that "high tech equipment" (they're called microphones btw) at the top of that post.
Microphones don't capture what is written on a chalk/dry erase/digital whiteboard or any "hands on" work the teacher may do (I remember you wanting hands on learning). In order to record the teacher's instruction to be played back later, you would also need video recording equipment. In order to video record, you would also need computer software to sync the audio and video tracks together correctly. You would ALSO need someone to provide those lectures to students in a manner they could replay them later and since we've already discussed that many students don't have Internet, that will require additional costs in computers and/or digital storage devices.

This is LITERALLY my specific area of expertise now. What you are saying is stupid...unless you are able to convince society it is necessary to generate funding for education. Which is a societal change, like I have been advocating for.

You're making up reasons to disagree with a hypothetical solution I came up with in like 2 minutes.
No, I'm pointing out you don't have the first clue as to what you are talking about and that your incredibly simplistic "solutions" are in no way actual solutions.

When are you going to finally understand your gross level of ignorance on this topic and defer to someone who actually does this for a living and has multiple degrees to support it?

No dude I just presented a hypothetical solution
Which could only work with a change in societal values. Like I said.

Why are you so unable to move on to a different topic?
It's the same topic.

It isn't dangerous to talk about the hows of this effort. It would be really constructive in fact if you would just participate again like you did a few lines ago.
I've been participating the same the entire time. I keep telling you if you would spend less time spewing your ignorant rhetoric everywhere and more time trying to learn from someone who knows far more than you do, this could be a far more productive conversation.

But you don't want to do that. As you said earlier, you just want to vent.

How does changing attitudes solve this anyways? We would still need to restructure taxes, but wait we can't do that until we get rid of electoral college, but wait we can't do that without changing attitudes about both, but wait how are we gunna convince people to help us convince people???
So now you finally understand the biggest problem facing education. It's about time.

You keep pretending as if there is a magical solution. There isn't. The only way to significantly improve public education with modern technology levels is to convince the nearly half of America who belong to a political party which constantly seeks to devalue public education to change their minds. Needless to say, it's a difficult struggle.

It is so much easier to stay on topic.
The topic is K-12 public education. That is all I have been discussing.

So either talk with me about school reform
I have been, even taking the time to reply to nearly every one of the multitude of incredibly stupid things you have said.

Are you finally ready to acknowledge you don't have any idea what you are talking about and wish to learn from someone who does?
 
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