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Public perceptions of communism v. fascism

People are confusing rote communism in theory with historical installations of 'communist' states. They are tremendously different.
 
The thing that they both of them have in common, is that neither see individual rights as inherent. They believe that it's the government's job to issue or approve a persons individual rights. That alone, makes both ideologies extremely dangerous to this country. They both directly contradict what the United States was founded on.
 
RightinNYC, et al,

I think the general population really doesn't understand the difference, and we learned, from our parents that "communism and facism were bad. Not because we understand the difference between the two, or the difference between us and them.

This is a trouble with a number of political concepts. You'll often hear political leaders use the phase "spreading democracy" or "we are a democracy;" when (in fact) we are a "Republic." And the "Republic is not often honest with its constituents.

Why is that?
  • Is it because communism is simply less objectionable?
  • Is it because there are modern day communist countries, but no modern day fascist counterparts?
  • Is it because there is a more substantial history of communist movements in this country?
(COMMENT)

For most people, when asked what similarities and differences there are, they are put at somewhat of a loss:

Both have either a govevernment control, but:
  • Fascism is associated with a "Dictatorship" (leader for life); it has a strong autocratic component.
  • Communism has a single controlling party that can regenerate leadership, but the leadership is not life long. It is anti-autocratic.
Both have a grave impact on the economy and the acquisition of wealth, but:
  • Fascism generally favors very strong economies and allows for competative growth.
  • Communism is a government controlled economy and favors socialist ownership.
Both systems establish strong internal controls, but:
  • Fascism promotes strong, confomist, nationalism - with the health and wealth of the nation is more important than any other aspect of society.
  • Communism is generally fostered by a regime which insures property in common, or held by the state. The health ofparty is more important than the health of its constiuents.
Both tend to exsert a very strong control over the general population (draconian in nature), but for different reasons:
  • Fascism is generally concerned with opposition to nationalism, and promotion of programs that are healthy for the states prosperity, but can support cultural religous practices that do not oppose the dictatorship.
  • Communisim is about obedience to the state and party; and does not generally support a strongly religious component in the culture.
In the US, where a Republic promotes free-trade and capitolism; the culture is rooted in the concept of maximizing the wealth of the shareholder; above the health and wealth of the country or citizenry. It is diametrically opposed to these two systems. In America, you will often hear the phrasef traditional values as: God, country and family (sometimes God, Family, Country). These state the core virtues in the form of Religion (God is With US), Patriotism (Our Nation - Right or Wrong), and Home (the Core that sets our culture of responsibility).

It differs from Facism and Communism in three important was:
  • There is no dictator, although the Present is not always by popular vote.
  • The Captains of Industry owe no allegence to the people or the American Economy.
  • The Economies serve to inhance the wealth of investors, not the people and not the state.
And finally, we (in our Republic) know the iron, will, character and integrity of our leaders so well, that we can openly express it without fear of reprocusions in telling the truth:
Jeffrey Pelt: [I said:
The Hunt for Red October[/I]] Listen, I'm a politician which means I'm a cheat and a liar, and when I'm not kissing babies I'm stealing their lollipops. But it also means I keep my options open.
So, I think (personal opinion) it is not any of the reasons that you suggest; but because the general population simply doesn't draw distincts between them.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
I get what you are saying, but it is incorrect to say that communism is entirely different than fascism in this.

Neither fascism nor communism promote the welfare of any one. They are both collectivist, and both see opposition between what is good for individuals and what is good for the greater society--and side with the society over the individual. Both seek to create greater good, or a more just or perfect society without any special regard for individuals as compared to whole groups of people.


Well, to an extent, yes, they are collectivist. Not individualist. But I think the "greater good" of Fascism is a bit different from a "greater Good" of a Liberal or Communist society. One is distinctly materialistic and attempts to create, even if misguided, mechanisms to promote material or human welfare (may not succeed). The other doesn't.
 
The war against Fascism was the most glorious chapter in our national history. We were the Big Damn Heroes saving the world from the Axis-- and unlike Soviet atrocities, we were allowed to get up close and personal with the victims of German and Japanese fascism. They got to tell their stories before the entire human race. There are no museums to the victims of the Soviets and the Maoists, and the war against international Communism was not a war of liberation, not a war of heroism and glory, but a chess game where each side used petty dictators as pawns. We won the war against Fascism, and then used the Fascists to fight a war against the Communists. This is why I'm fond of saying that when we defeated Germany and Japan, we won the war but lost the argument-- we used their own methods against them and against every enemy we've fought since.

There is also the matter that Soviet intelligence operated far longer, and was much more effective, then Nazi intelligence. The Soviets funded and indoctrinated insurgents and dissidents in countries all over the world, including the United States, and those unwitting pawns undermined our war efforts in every major conflict against Communism during the Cold War. The revolutionary and so-called "student" movements in the 60s and 70s were largely Soviet creations-- and, when the Cold War died, these Communists and Communist sympathizers didn't go away, they integrated themselves into our education system and into more acceptable government and community action. As much as our Democratic Party isn't by any stretch of the imagination a Communist organization, these radicals have insinuated themselves into it handily.



Mostly? Jews. This country is full of Jews and they wield disproportionate wealth and influence in our society. (Facts which I applaud them for. They are, by and large, a superior people.) The victims of Soviet atrocities were mostly Russians and Ukrainians and Latvians, who have no significant influence in this country. And Soviet aggression, unlike Fascist aggression, was not direct and overt but instead relied on fomenting revolutions and civil wars in countries under colonial occupiers and failing governments-- so even where they failed, there are large segments of the population that view them ambivalently at least, if not warmly.





Communism believes in a world without power and violence and hypocritically uses power and violence to attempt to realize it. Fascism believes in power and violence as an inevitable and necessary part of human existence, and seeks to channel them into productive and life-affirming ends. Both are horrific when they fail, but all human social structures are horrific when they fail and Communism is inherently doomed to failure because it is inconsistent-- it fails from the very moment that it is born and continues to fail until it collapses. Fascism survives and thrives until it is defeated by superior external forces, which is in accordance with the natural order and nothing to be ashamed of. It's worth noting, despite the fact that the Axis Powers were defeated, that it took almost the entire rest of the world to do so.



Materially, they appear similar, but Fascism's goals for society are not material, but spiritual. Communism rejects the spiritual side of Man's existence and denies his spiritual needs, while Fascism is focused primarily on the spiritual well-being of the people. It has admittedly only achieved mixed success on this front, with the most notable failure being Germany, but Fascism genuinely promotes the triumph of passion and vitality over despair.



They're different ideals, and they're not the ideals we are taught to pay lip service to in church and school. It is true that Fascism promotes ambition and ruthlessness as virtues, but people tend to overlook that it also promotes loyalty and cooperation and love. It is not enough to cultivate personal power and pursue personal ambitions; the true Fascist must also encourage and inspire his family and his neighbors to cultivate power, and bind them all together in the service of something greater than petty hedonism. The Fascist leader must not merely be powerful and ambitious, he needs to command the loyalty of other powerful and ambitious men, and he needs to cultivate an atmosphere in which ambition and loyalty are rewarded with greater power and responsibility.

No social structure is perfect, but Fascism doesn't have to be perfect to work.



The only way for the leadership of the Organic State to accumulate more power is for the Organic State itself to accumulate more power.



How is the propagation and accumulation of power "sinister"? How is the rejection of pure, unfettered materialism "sinister"? Egalitarianism and materialism are the roots of Communist ideology, and are the source of both its failure and its hypocrisy.

And how is paying lip service to values you don't believe in better than honesty?

It's worse to appeal intentionally to goals that are anti-materialist and anti-utilitarian than to fail to achieve them, but try. One's actively malicious and concerned only with power, while the other at least makes some progress. At least a failure like Communism has some useful applications in the form of a mixed socialist/capitalist economy. There's nothing good about a society that promotes rampant militarism, vioence, and mysticism as virtues while scorning material welfare as even worthwhile to promote.
 
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The more things change, the more they stay the same. Here's a guy, reviled as a communist, blacklisted and harassed for speaking his mind, but still has a message for today.

 
Well, to an extent, yes, they are collectivist. Not individualist. But I think the "greater good" of Fascism is a bit different from a "greater Good" of a Liberal or Communist society. One is distinctly materialistic and attempts to create, even if misguided, mechanisms to promote material or human welfare (may not succeed). The other doesn't.

It's worse to appeal intentionally to goals that are anti-materialist and anti-utilitarian than to fail to achieve them, but try. One's actively malicious and concerned only with power, while the other at least makes some progress. At least a failure like Communism has some useful applications in the form of a mixed socialist/capitalist economy. There's nothing good about a society that promotes rampant militarism, vioence, and mysticism as virtues while scorning material welfare as even worthwhile to promote.

Material welfare is a product of proper moral virtues, which Fascism seeks to promote. And there is nothing anti-materialist or anti-utilitarian about it-- it merely acknowledges that there is more to humanity and more to a healthy society than easy wealth and endless, pointless luxury. Militarism may be a feature of Fascism, but it is far from its sole feature.
 
Survival of the individual at the expense of the collective is not the way of nature, especially not human nature. Human societies that do not put the good of the whole over the good of the one do not survive.

That is true...but I make a distinction between society and government. Government is a part of society and should play a very limited role in ordering certain other aspects of the society. Aside from government altogether, human individuals, living in groups to survive (which, as you mention, is natural), will develop spontaneous order again and again without the need of an overarching system of government to enforce it. Piling on more layers of order and/or social control via government has limited benefit beyond a certain point, and actually becomes detrimental when pushed to extremes. This is all due, also, to "imperfections" in human nature. Imperfect people make imperfect rules to govern societies, no matter what they may strive for.
 
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Material welfare is a product of proper moral virtues, which Fascism seeks to promote. And there is nothing anti-materialist or anti-utilitarian about it-- it merely acknowledges that there is more to humanity and more to a healthy society than easy wealth and endless, pointless luxury. Militarism may be a feature of Fascism, but it is far from its sole feature.

I didn't say militarism was the only feature. I actually said that Fascism has several characteristics: mysticism, paramilitarism, anti-materialism, mysticism, elitism, transcendence, and populism, etc.
Fascism's virtues themselves are perverted and ass backwards.

Historians describe Fascism as an irrationalist and anti-material doctrine that emphasizes some nonsensical spiritual welfare as represented by unity with the transcendental State. The Doctrine of Fascism, by Gentile, openly mocks material goals.
 
Which is the entire reason for putting power in the hands of the people as a whole and doing away with government.
 
Which is the entire reason for putting power in the hands of the people as a whole and doing away with government.

Which is what they're trying to do when they end up with crapsack Communist governments. Authority and coercion are a part of the human character. No society will ever be rid of them.
 
Here’s brief take on the two:

Facism is evil.
Communism is dumb, and on a large scale is impossible to implement without facism.

So to promote facism is first order bad.
To promote Communism is second order bad…it will end up as facism anyway, so you may as well treat them the same.
 
Which is the entire reason for putting power in the hands of the people as a whole and doing away with government.
Doh. In a western style democracy power is intentionally, by design, spread out over a number of competing "silos".
You want facism. You want to consolidate that power into public hands. The public will invariably, inevitably, form it's own hierarchy of power (but be realistic here, if it's powerful enough to overthrow a government it will ALREADY have a hierarchy of power!) and will then have no other competing powers to hold it in check. Enter, facist regime by your own creation.

Governments are people too. Just saying "abolish government and give power to the people" is absurd as a result.
 
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