Proud Boys celebrate after Trump's debate call-out

[EMNofSeattle]

I have no problem with evaluating the accomplishments of differrent civilizations and say x civilization was superior to z.

The problem is that this claim is also used as "proof" to claim that x race is superior to z race

Some people may say this, Hitler believed in social welfare and being kind to animals too. You cannot make the Leap without proving this.

The proud boys believe in Western Culture as being superior to others. This includes all of Latin America, pieces of Africa, pieces of the Middle East, and Asia. They explicitly renounce white nationalism, their co-founder Dante Nero is black, a National Chair named Enrique Tarrio is black and Hispanic, a Salt Lake City leader named Thad is black, Gavin McInnes the main founder has renounced white supremacy and has spoken positively of black and Latino culture, and is married to an indigenous American woman. He’s also a devout Catholic and the Church teaches you can go to hell for being a racial supremacist.

So you can’t just make the claim that some people use culture as a dog whistle for race then apply that concept to the proud boys in the face of the evidence on the other side.

I wouldn’t join them, and I’m not a member, I have problems with some of their ideology, but I have to evaluate the claim they’re white supremacist honestly, and I don’t see the evidence

 

[pamak]

Some people may say this, Hitler believed in social welfare and being kind to animals too. You cannot make the Leap without proving this.

The proud boys believe in Western Culture as being superior to others. This includes all of Latin America, pieces of Africa, pieces of the Middle East, and Asia. They explicitly renounce white nationalism, their co-founder Dante Nero is black, a National Chair named Enrique Tarrio is black and Hispanic, a Salt Lake City leader named Thad is black, Gavin McInnes the main founder has renounced white supremacy and has spoken positively of black and Latino culture, and is married to an indigenous American woman. He’s also a devout Catholic and the Church teaches you can go to hell for being a racial supremacist.

So you can’t just make the claim that some people use culture as a dog whistle for race then apply that concept to the proud boys in the face of the evidence on the other side.

I wouldn’t join them, and I’m not a member, I have problems with some of their ideology, but I have to evaluate the claim they’re white supremacist honestly, and I don’t see the evidence

I do not accept that the Proud Boys just believe in the superiority of the western civilization. I believe that many use such claim as an excuse to cover racial beliefs. I have seen Proud Boys giving the Nazi salute or collaborating with white supremacists and I have seen also the ADL evaluation of the group

Proud Boys

www.adl.org

Ideology: Primarily alt lite: Misogynistic, Islamophobic, transphobic and anti-immigration. Some members espouse white supremacist and anti-Semitic ideologies and/or engage with white supremacist groups


.

The issue with those who talk about "western civilization" is that they end up counting on race as the connecting link among different versions of the "western civilization." The American civilization is very different from the Norwedian. The Greek civilization is very different from the German . And what about the Jewish civilization which is not even part of the west? Western civilization for them is very narrow and ends up excuding people like Slavs, Greeks and Jews who are not considered real westerners. This is very familiar, and replicates the Anglo-Saxon racist beliefs of the early 20th centuty.

If one simply wants to find the common link among different modern western civlizations, then this is secularism. But such position means that a common belief in the secular principles of the Constitution shoud be enough to have any person of any religion or of any sexual orientation be a "real" westerner.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I do not accept that the Proud Boys just believe in the superiority of the western civilization. I believe that many use such claim as an excuse to cover racial beliefs. I have seen Proud Boys giving the Nazi salute or collaborating with white supremacists and I have seen also the ADL evaluation of the group

Proud Boys

www.adl.org

Ideology: Primarily alt lite: Misogynistic, Islamophobic, transphobic and anti-immigration. Some members espouse white supremacist and anti-Semitic ideologies and/or engage with white supremacist groups


.

The issue with those who talk about "western civilization" is that they end up counting on race as the connecting link among different versions of the "western civilization." The American civilization is very different from the Norwedian. The Greek civilization is very different from the German . And what about the Jewish civilization which is not even part of the west? Western civilization for them is very narrow and ends up excuding people like Slavs, Greeks and Jews who are not considered real westerners. This is very familiar, and replicates the Anglo-Saxon racist beliefs of the early 20th centuty.

If one simply wants to find the common link among different modern western civlizations, then this is secularism. But such position means that a common belief in the secular principles of the Constitution shoud be enough to have any person of any religion or of any sexual orientation be a "real" westerner.

No it's not. because an orthodox believing muslim cannot support the US Constitution.

I really don't believe that many homosexuals believe in the constitution either. They believe all of society should cater to them as the cakeshop cases
have shown, but in any event, you made the charge they were white supremacist, and that has been conclusively shown false and now you're pivoting.

 

[pamak]

No it's not. because an orthodox believing muslim cannot support the US Constitution.

I really don't believe that many homosexuals believe in the constitution either. They believe all of society should cater to them as the cakeshop cases
have shown, but in any event, you made the charge they were white supremacist, and that has been conclusively shown false and now you're pivoting.

What about an Orthodox Jew or an Evangelical? Heck, the Evangelicals were voting for candidates who clearly wanted Biblical belliefs to guide political decisions. And the belief is actualy more wide spread among Americans

Half of Americans say Bible should influence U.S. laws, including 28% who favor it over the will of the people

About half of Americans say the Bible should have at least “some” influence on U.S. laws; 23% say it should have “a great deal” of influence.

www.pewresearch.org

People who become citizens take an oath and the Constitution itself did not preclude Muslims or anybody else from taking that oath. There are Muslims who are and want to remain secular and there are Muslims who want to see thr Quran influence the US politics just like Chritstians want to see the Bible influence US politics.



Your coment about the homosexuals reveals why you give the Proud Boys the benefit of the dout: Heck, if the idea is to suspect ever person who wants the society to cater to them, you need to include the Evangelicals, Catholics and other religius believers who want the government to cater only to the needs of heterosexual couples and want every woman to cater to their religious beliefs about the start of human life by accepting a state-enforced pregnancy. You must also include corporate CEOs who want society to bail them out when risky investments crash their company and economomy in general.

Yes, I make the charge that they are white supremacists because I put more weight on the ratonale of what they say they believe than on their claims of what they say they are or are not. Most extremists today do not state openly their belief. So, I take their claim that they believe in some common "western civilization," bond and I say that the claim is not convincing because they insist on excluding people from gays to latinos who want to be secular, while they ignore the often clearly not secular beliefs of white non-latino christians.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

What about an Orthodox Jew or an Evangelical? Heck, the Evangelicals were voting for candidates who clearly wanted Biblical belliefs to guide political decisions. And the belief is actualy more wide spread among Americans

Half of Americans say Bible should influence U.S. laws, including 28% who favor it over the will of the people

About half of Americans say the Bible should have at least “some” influence on U.S. laws; 23% say it should have “a great deal” of influence.

www.pewresearch.org

People who become citizens take an oath and the Constitution itself did not preclude Muslims or anybody else from taking that oath. There are Muslims who are and want to remain secular and there are Muslims who want to see thr Quran influence the US politics just like Chritstians want to see the Bible influence US politics.



Your coment about the homosexuals reveals why you give the Proud Boys the benefit of the dout: Heck, if the idea is to suspect ever person who wants the society to cater to them, you need to include the Evangelicals, Catholics and other religius believers who want the government to cater only to the needs of heterosexual couples and want every woman to cater to their religious beliefs about the start of human life by accepting a state-enforced pregnancy. You must also include corporate CEOs who want society to bail them out when risky investments crash their company and economomy in general.

Yes, I make the charge that they are white supremacists because I put more weight on the ratonale of what they say they believe than on their claims of what they say they are or are not. Most extremists today do not state openly their belief. So, I take their claim that they believe in some common "western civilization," bond and I say that the claim is not convincing because they insist on excluding people from gays to latinos who want to be secular, while they ignore the often clearly not secular beliefs of white non-latino christians.

can re write this as a coherent argument please?

 

[pamak]

can re write this as a coherent argument please?

If you point at the part that confuses you.

If you are claiing that you are incapable of understanding anything of what I wrote, then we cannot communicate.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

If you point at the part that confuses you.

If you are claiing that you are incapable of understanding anything of what I wrote, then we cannot communicate.

i can read your rambling, but it’s disjointed rambling not making a coherent argument that can be refuted.

you are ranting. Pick an argument, make premises and then a conclusion.

 

[pamak]

i can read your rambling, but it’s disjointed rambling not making a coherent argument that can be refuted.

you are ranting. Pick an argument, make premises and then a conclusion.

It is a series of arguments and if you do not have the intellectual capacity to handle a post that presents multiple points and arguments do not waste my time. Again, show me the part that confuses your brain and I will clarify if there is a real and honest confusion. If you just claim that you cannot understand any of the points I made, you are losing my and your time.