Progressives: ITS TOO HARD TO ACHIEVE SECULARISM IN THE MIDDLE EAST

[akyron]

Ms. Khan singled out Sudan, Zimbabwe, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Nepal, Uzbekistan, and Haiti as among the worst human-rights offenders.
QUOTE]


It figures. Some psycho goes crazy on the people in Zimbabwe and somehow it is all the fault of the U.S.A..




Hang on people.
One place at a time.

 

[mikeangelo]

hey guys.

I think you are totally right. The threat you talk of is of a global Islamic uprising. The threat is not the muslims per se but the ideology that they hold to. What you need to do is not defeat the muslims. You need to defeat the ideology. The concept that there is a God and that it is the duty in life to worship the creator.

The ideology of the west has its appeal. Its thoughts regarding democracy and freedom etc. however it has been rejected by the muslim peoples. the fact is that our ignorant politicians and civil servants in London and Washington etc have not been out in these countries challenging the legitamacy of Islam to rule. that is what this battle is about the concepts of Capitalism vs the concepts of Islam. This battle is not fought with bullets or blades. it is fought with the sharpness of the tongue. I challenge each and everyone of you go to a muslim and tell them that you follow a false god and that you have a superior ideology to them and see what response you get. Military muscle will get you know where. In fact it is provoking the situation even more. A more provoked people will mean that they will become increasingly militarised. The muslims will start to take the initiative. Do not forget that the precious alliance command and control bases for the wars are either in muslim countries or in areas with high percentages of muslim occupants and hence exposed to enemy counter attack.

well Mr M4A1. There are 1.2 billion muslims. There are 240million Americans. Also do not forget that Americans are converting to Islam at a worrying rate. There is also a sizeable muslim population already on our shores. Muslims are not being converted the other way. The saudis own 10% of the American economy. the muslims control the oil supply. you can't move a tank without juice.

Again I do not say don't fight because its not nice. I am saying do not fight because you can't.

 

[nkgupta80]

Islam would be just fine if it weren't hijacked by dictators and twisting theocracies. Theres no ****ing global Islamic uprising. If the religion is inherently violent (which is arguable), normal muslims would and have seen to it that they interpret the texts in such a way in that its peaceful.

Look at India (It holds the second largest muslim population). Muslims are living freely in that country, free to practice their religion as they want. The only violence is between tiny Muslim and Hindu extremist populations, and that is only in certain parts (such is expected in poor countries with a diverse population of 1 billion). Majority of the people live together peacefully. And this is because the government isn't a fk-ed Islamic theocracy where politicians hijak the religion and use it for their own benefits. Its a secular democracy.

 

[mikeangelo]

no global islamic uprising! man you need to watch the news some more. we are all under attack! iraq, palestine, chechnya, afghanistan, somalia. we have even been attacked in Europe! This is everywhere. I don't know who is a sleeper and who isn't. Even in Kashmir. there is no peace in India. there is merely a lull if you want to call it that! look at the riots your nation had at Gujrat. The one factor linking all these conflicts together is Islam. The reality is that we in the west have been robbing them, cheating them, killing them and raping them for two centuries and it looks like they want pay back. we need to secure ourselves immediately.

 

[nkgupta80]

i am from both the richer and poorer parts of india, i know what it is like there, and i know the difference between kashmir extremists and the millions of muslims who live normally in india (a lot of them were my family's neighbors). Don't start quoting Gujrat riots without understanding them. There are factions in the Gujrati villages, who are run by religious extremists whether Hindu or Muslims. They use corruption and deception to start riots and bring themselves to more power with help from politicians. They hijak Islam just like the other factions hijak Hinduism. Doesn't mean its Islam that causes this. Anyways there were riots in LA. Are saying that all of US is not peaceful?

One of our neighbors in India were temporarly moved from Iran, and were moving back. We met them, and since we were from the US, they started askin about life here. They love our movies and our music. They had nothing against the US in a religious sense. No mention of Americans being infidels.

Again what links all these together isn't Islam but corrupt politics using Islam as a tool. And since this is done by the minority the better thing would be to fix the corrupt politics rather than take away Islam all together.

The reality is that we in the west have been robbing them, cheating them, killing them and raping them for two centuries and it looks like they want pay back. we need to secure ourselves immediately.

So again, from what you have just said, the problem is us, not Islam. Of course they'd be angry. But in order to move on, we gotta project ourselves as an example that the people can look upon, not as hypocrites. The west's self-serving policies is what allows the muslims to be bought into the crap their corrupt leaders feed them. They are angry, they have oppressive governments, and the world doesn't seem to give a ****. So they turn to these terrorists and extremists for hope.

secularist democracy is gonna be extreeeemely hard to achieve, but its the only way the mid-east can prosper.

I don't know who is a sleeper and who isn't.

Thats the same as saying you don't know who's a murderer or a rapist and who isn't. But remember, rule of thumb is that the majority of the poeple are not rapists and murders cause thse people are usually screwed up in the head or come from desperate situations. Same with terrorism, some terrorists are screwed up in the head, others just come from extremely desperate situations. But the majority of the muslims, and I mean the greaat majority of the muslims you can bet are not terrorists.

 

[mikeangelo]

an entire province was rioting. it was a huge incident. it was hindu muslim communal riots. it was a defining moment in indian politics. This was not a few upset country folk. again the defining moment was the fact that Muslims had bonded around their identity.

India is a nation. the people at the time did not view themselves as indian. they saw themselves as muslims that were under attack.

for secular democracy to flourish, people have to be secular. they cannot define themselves by religion and still be secular. As a consequence they have to reject Islam.

 

[nkgupta80]

i never said it was a few upset country folk. It was a big event. However, you only look at the Muslim side. Hindu's too rallied up under their religion. What religion caused it? Neither. It was corrupt leaders who used religion to band the people together, and bring themselves to power.

Come on, these are uneducated areas full of poverty. It is very easy for someone to prey on these people's desperation and hopes and find scapegoats for them. In this case, Hindus placed there troubles on Muslim minorities, and thus Muslim's band together and prey on innocent Hindu's. Its a vicious cycle. Stop it by getting rid of the dumbasses who lead these people, not by rejecting the religion.

These riots aren't events that happen everyday in India. And also remember the Indian government is not very strong, but rather corrupt and at times ineffective. This also had a large part to do with the outbreak of violence in these areas.

for secular democracy to flourish, people have to be secular. they cannot define themselves by religion and still be secular. As a consequence they have to reject Islam.

In america, Christianity is a huge force in our politics. Tons of Americans define themselves through their Christian values. But our government is still considered secular. Are you saying there is something fundementaly wrong with this country?

 

[mikeangelo]

its true about hindus rallied around their religion too. but as an example you won't see hindu communities rioting outside of india. There is not global hindu threat. there are many hindus scattered over the globe for example in south east asia. They are not seen as a threat. In fact the hindus have integrated themselves into the respective societies. The hindus have become more of a race than a peoples. The hindus do not go round the world trying to call people to follow the principles of Hinduism.

However wherever there is a large muslim population in any corner of the globe there is a threat there. The muslims are incapable of integrating. They want to call to their religion. They reject freedom and democracy and secularism.

with regards to the christian right. Yes it exists in your country. however the majority of Americans are not christian fundamentalists. they are secular. There is a divide in your country between Church and State. The fact that some values have christianity at its root is another issue.

When i say what i am saying, of course there will be individuals that obviously buck this trend but all i am commenting on is the trend. that is something that cannot be denied.

 

[nkgupta80]

but the answer to that trend is not rejecting islam.

with regards to the christian right. Yes it exists in your country. however the majority of Americans are not christian fundamentalists. they are secular. There is a divide in your country between Church and State. The fact that some values have christianity at its root is another issue.

And it isn't Islamic uprising, it's Islamic extremist uprising And that is definately not the majority. That is all I am saying.

Exactly, and the majority of Muslims are not fundementalist either.
If there is a global Islamic uprising, it's a Global Islamic fundementalist uprising.

 

[mikeangelo]

i agree it is not all muslims that follow this pathway at the moment. within the religion there is an ongoing discussion between moderates and conservatives. However the moderates lack all credibility amongst muslims. they are seen as pandering to the west. In discussions, the moderates always lose. They cannot defend themselves using the text of the Quran. As a result the percentage of conservative vs moderate is changing. This change has ushered the latest uprising. the moderates do not do these uprisings. However Islam denies the moderates any room to manoeveur.

That is why the west has to openly say that Islam as a whole is false. Just as the west said Communism was false. Just as it said Nazism is false etc.