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Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.[W:963:1176:1448]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
And yet the amendment was entered.
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That would mean it is illegal and your argument is invalid. In any event, I wasn't wrong when I said it replaced the AOC. You can't hold the south to a document that wasn't standing at the time.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
I guess it's too bad you two weren't around to set them all straight.:peace
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If it is indeed an amendment and that amendment was passed illegally then the amendment is illegal by extension. Your little argument just invalidated the entire Constitution.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
I guess it's too bad you two weren't around to set them all straight.:peace
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Are you trying to make some sort of legal argument, or are you just saying that might makes right?
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Henrin said:
If it is indeed an amendment and that amendment was passed illegally then the amendment is illegal by extension. Your little argument just invalidated the entire Constitution.
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Federalist said:
Are you trying to make some sort of legal argument, or are you just saying that might makes right?
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I'm just saying that in legal terms the US Constitution was adopted as an amendment to the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union. That's why the former includes the aspiration to form "a more perfect union" and the SCOTUS cited the perpetual union in Texas v White in 1869.:peace
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
I'm just saying that in legal terms the US Constitution was adopted as an amendment to the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union. That's why the former includes the aspiration to form "a more perfect union" and the SCOTUS cited the perpetual union in Texas v White in 1869.:peace
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It can't be an amendment. It only required ratification by 9 states. The articles require that any amendment be unanimously ratified.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
I'm just saying that in legal terms the US Constitution was adopted as an amendment to the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union. That's why the former includes the aspiration to form "a more perfect union" and the SCOTUS cited the perpetual union in Texas v White in 1869.:peace
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By the way, you never supplied the text from the articles that forbade any state from leaving the confederation. Are you able to do so?
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
I'm just saying that in legal terms the US Constitution was adopted as an amendment to the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union. That's why the former includes the aspiration to form "a more perfect union" and the SCOTUS cited the perpetual union in Texas v White in 1869.:peace
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You should get out of the habit of referencing court rulings to defend your arguments. They are many times based on erroneous standings and offer a discussion with no useful facts beyond the fact it happened and it is legally binding.

If the Constitution is not the formation of a new union there is no reason to expect that they would use the words "to form a more perfect union" as the union would have already been formed and established. If however it was a replacement then the words make more sense as the first attempt was a failure and they were attempting it once more.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Federalist said:
By the way, you never supplied the text from the articles that forbade any state from leaving the confederation. Are you able to do so?
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Whereas the Delegates of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, did, on the 15th day of November, in the Year of Our Lord One thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy seven, and in the Second Year of the Independence of America, agree to certain articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the States of New-hampshire, Massachusetts-bay, Rhode-island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North-Carolina, South-Carolina, and Georgia in the words following, viz.


"Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the states of New-hampshire, Massachusetts-bay, Rhode-island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New-York, New-Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North-Carolina, South-Carolina and Georgia".:peace
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
Whereas the Delegates of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, did, on the 15th day of November, in the Year of Our Lord One thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy seven, and in the Second Year of the Independence of America, agree to certain articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the States of New-hampshire, Massachusetts-bay, Rhode-island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North-Carolina, South-Carolina, and Georgia in the words following, viz.


"Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the states of New-hampshire, Massachusetts-bay, Rhode-island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New-York, New-Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North-Carolina, South-Carolina and Georgia".:peace
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So you can't find any language the forbids a state from exiting the confederation?
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Federalist said:
It can't be an amendment. It only required ratification by 9 states. The articles require that any amendment be unanimously ratified.
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Not always.

Article X. The committee of the states, or any nine of them, shall be authorized to execute, in the recess of congress, such of the powers of congress as the united states in congress assembled, by the consent of nine states, shall from time to time think expedient to vest them with; provided that no power be delegated to the said committee, for the exercise of which, by the articles of confederation, the voice of nine states in the congress of the united states assembled is requisite.
:peace:peace
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
Not always.

Article X. The committee of the states, or any nine of them, shall be authorized to execute, in the recess of congress, such of the powers of congress as the united states in congress assembled, by the consent of nine states, shall from time to time think expedient to vest them with; provided that no power be delegated to the said committee, for the exercise of which, by the articles of confederation, the voice of nine states in the congress of the united states assembled is requisite.
:peace:peace
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Nope.

"nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State."
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Federalist said:
Nope.

"nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State."
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Seems like they prioritized Article X over the other language.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
Seems like they prioritized Article X over the other language.
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Article X only allowed the committee of states to exercise legitimate powers. There was no legitimate power to bypass the requirement for unanimous consent to amendment.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
The word is sufficient. More would be superfluous.
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There is nothing in the articles that forbids any state from withdrawing.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Federalist said:
Article X only allowed the committee of states to exercise legitimate powers. There was no legitimate power to bypass the requirement for unanimous consent to amendment.
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And yet they did.:peace
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Good night, gentlemen.:2wave:
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
Except that darned "perpetual union" thing.
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So no article that forbids a state from leaving or anything like that?
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Federalist said:
So no article that forbids a state from leaving or anything like that?
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From Chief Justice Chase's ruling in Texas v White:

"The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to 'be perpetual.' And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained 'to form a more perfect Union.' It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?"

And now, again, good night.:peace
 
Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
From Chief Justice Chase's ruling in Texas v White:

"The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to 'be perpetual.' And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained 'to form a more perfect Union.' It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?"

And now, again, good night.:peace
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So no article that forbids a state from leaving the confederation.

Goodnight. :)
 
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