Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.[W:963:1176:1448]

[Gina]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Moderator's Warning:

Please return to the topic: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL. The discussion has gone off the rails. If you all want to discuss states rights to leave the union or the civil war, please start a thread in the appropriate forum. Thank you. That is all.

 

[LaMidRighter]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

FICA (sans the 2.9% medicare rate) taxes were capped likely at $97k. Even if your colleague earned an additional $45k, roughly 1/3 was collected in taxes. So if he made $160k (thought it was $130k) in year 1, he still netted an additional $30k in income year 2 no matter how you slice it.

Actually, not true. He lost money, the guy would have no reason to lie to me. Now, he LOST money factoring both tax rates plus FICA, and other contributory taxes. Long story short, if you just break the borderline you lose money.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

You might not want to recognize it as such, but political slavery is slavery. The north was not fighting against slavery, but instead fighting for political slavery.

YOu guys on the far right certainly do get some brownie points for creativity coming up with nonsense like "political slavery" :roll: . Sadly, it has no meaning in our nation. Actual slavery where one person holds another as property and the rights of citizens are denied to them however is real actual slavery. You guys on the far right don't seem to give two hoots about that.

Instead we get rants about the immorality of the progressive income tax and how that is some new sort of economic slavery... or is that also political slavery? What it comes down to is opposition against the tax that considers how much a person makes and is suppose to hit the wealthy more than the poor or even the common worker. So that makes it evil in the mind of the defenders of the wealthy.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals. - Lysander Spooner

That is what really happened. Sorry, but that amounts to political slavery. Yes, I could stop using that quote, but Spooner says it far better than I ever could.

Ah - Spooner! The great prophet of right libertarianism whose life was a complete failure and series of contradictions that turned on its head his previous position.

Consider that he wanted to practice law before the Massachusetts court but believed that there should be no law as to who could practice that same law before those same courts. His short lived victory there did not prevent him from failing at his new profession of being an attorney when he could not get enough clients to keep body and soul together.

He then went into real estate and failed at that also. He started his own private postal service and failed at that also.

His positions on slavery remind one of the scene in CHINATOWN where Faye Dunaway seemingly cannot make up her mind if the young lady with her is her daughter or her sister as Nicholson slaps the taste from her mouth over and over. Spooner was against slavery but supported the states seceding from the Union in order to maintain slavery. He was against slavery but opposed the war which made it possible to actually end it. He believed slaves were entitled to equal rights but opposed the Reconstruction programs designed to help them use and maintain those rights.

 

[maquiscat]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.[W:1176]

“The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.”

Which is why instead of just blindly taxing revenue, you tax luxury, or IOW, tax that which is above and beyond the basic necessities of life, including those items among the basic necessities when they are consumed beyond that basic need. Got more house then you need? More taxes. Eat more food than is necessary. More taxes.

 

[scatt]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Ah - Spooner!

Spooner was a "left" libertarian.

 

[Vilhelmo]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Your first line is the right-wing meme...

What is a "right-wing meme"?
The claim that Federal taxation removes money from the economy.?
Are you serious?

and only tells one-third of the story. Sure, I paid my taxes in cash and I have less money...but where did that money go? You didn't really address that at all.

I apologize for the confusion.
I shall attempt to clarify.

Federal spending (or Fed lending) creates money & Federal taxation destroys money.

I find the following example to be most edifying.

Imagine that there is only one dollar in existence, held by Mr JP Morgan in the form of a $1 Federal Reserve Note (FRN).

We can say the following:

• Mr Morgan has a $1 asset (FRN)
• The Federal Reserve has a $1 liability (FRN)
• The Treasury has $0

Given that Fed liabilities are US government liabilities, we can also say:

• The US Government has a $1 liability (FRN)

The US Government then imposes a tax of $1 upon Mr. Morgan. As a result, the $1 note is transferred from Mr. Morgan to the US Treasury.

• Mr Morgan now has $0
• The Treasury now has a $1 asset (FRN)
• The Fed still has a $1 liability (FRN)

Given that Treasury assets are US Government assets,

• the US Government now has a $1 asset (FRN)

The same $1 Federal Reserve Note (FRN) is held by US Government both as an asset (Treasury) & a liability (Fed).
The result is a government net balance of $0.

Money has thus been destroyed by taxation.​

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals. - Lysander Spooner

That is what really happened. Sorry, but that amounts to political slavery. Yes, I could stop using that quote, but Spooner says it far better than I ever could.

Well, both you and spooner are wrong.

Because under that premise.. Timothy McVeigh wasn't a criminal, The guys that blew up the Boston marathon weren't criminals, so on a so forth.

Secondly.. the south left the union because of the election of one man, duly and Constitutionally elected by the country.. who hadn't even taken office yet. (and why? Because they were afraid that the election of Lincoln was a signal that the south's stranglehold on the country... a power based not on equal representation but by the institution of slavery, was at an end.

And after leaving the union, then then fired on federal troops, on federal land.. land that was owned not by the State of Carolina, but by ALL americans. ..

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

There is no provision that prevents a state from leaving.

and there is no provision that allows a state to leave..

As was determined in White V Texas...

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals. - Lysander Spooner

That is what really happened. Sorry, but that amounts to political slavery.

No. That amounts to democracy.eace

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

again. a most interesting conservative perspective-defending all the big government encroachments on the tenth amendment.

not at all.. just pointing out the facts.. which dispute your narrative of "vote buying schemes"...

the fact is.. that many of the red states receive more federal dollars than they put in..

While many of the Blue states.. receive FEWER federal dollars than they put in...

In a sense.. the Blue States are subsidizing the welfare of the Red states..

That's a fact...

Real conservatives believe in using facts and logic.. not rhetoric...

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

not at all.. just pointing out the facts.. which dispute your narrative of "vote buying schemes"...

the fact is.. that many of the red states receive more federal dollars than they put in..

While many of the Blue states.. receive FEWER federal dollars than they put in...

In a sense.. the Blue States are subsidizing the welfare of the Red states..

That's a fact...

Real conservatives believe in using facts and logic.. not rhetoric...

referring to tax payers by states is moronic. As I have noted, what is Ohio? red or blue? and California, NY and CT send the GOP more money than 20 states that have been Red since Reagan

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

If you are suggesting that we take the provision of law and order away from government, then you'll have to explain how that would work.

On the other hand, there's no reason why any number of people can't provide support to the poor.

What we are talking about his how to pay for it...

you say that its okay to STEAL from people to pay for law and order that they don't want...

Yet is not okay to STEAL from people to pay for the services that reduce the need for that law and order...

Pointing out that you're being inconsistent in your argument.. thus eliminating its validity...

Basically your premise appear to be that if you like what the money is used for.. then stealing from people is okay..

If you don't like what its used for, then stealing is not okay.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

What we are talking about his how to pay for it...

you say that its okay to STEAL from people to pay for law and order that they don't want...

Yet is not okay to STEAL from people to pay for the services that reduce the need for that law and order...

Pointing out that you're being inconsistent in your argument.. thus eliminating its validity...

Basically your premise appear to be that if you like what the money is used for.. then stealing from people is okay..

If you don't like what its used for, then stealing is not okay.

do you really think that the handouts Democratic politicians have used since the New Deal to buy votes are really designed to do anything other than keep Democrats in power. The war on poverty has wasted trillions and what is the poverty rate now?

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

referring to tax payers by states is moronic. As I have noted, what is Ohio? red or blue? and California, NY and CT send the GOP more money than 20 states that have been Red since Reagan

Not moronic because it goes to who is benefiting...

Those red states.. and I live in one...are filled with republicans actual voters (;... who are all benefiting from federal dollars.. more federal dollars than they put in...

And yet you claim that its the democrats efforts to buy democrat votes that's the reason that these republican states are getting more money than they paid in.

That simply doesn't fly..


Your point about California, NY and CT sending more GOP money in? So what?

. The fact is that California, and NY are blue states.. and consistently blue states because they have more democrat voters. All the people that you say are benefiting from federal welfare.. when they are not benefiting as much as other red states...

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Not moronic because it goes to who is benefiting...

Those red states.. and I live in one...are filled with republicans actual voters (;... who are all benefiting from federal dollars.. more federal dollars than they put in...

And yet you claim that its the democrats efforts to buy democrat votes that's the reason that these republican states are getting more money than they paid in.

That simply doesn't fly..


Your point about California, NY and CT sending more GOP money in? So what?

. The fact is that California, and NY are blue states.. and consistently blue states because they have more democrat voters. All the people that you say are benefiting from federal welfare.. when they are not benefiting as much as other red states...

lets see if I can make this more understandable

I used to live in the City of Cincinnati which has been a Blue area for decades. The DEMS ran city hall for years and Obama, Obama, Kerry, Gore, Clinton, Clinton, Dukakis, Mondale and Carter all won Cincinnati. Yet Cincinnati contains Hyde Park an enclave that at one time was #2 in the world of communities with the highest percentages of millionaires. The vast majority of which voted GOP (the richest liberals lived in a area called Amberly-right out side the city limits). Those millionaires paid more FIT than the rest of the city put together.

The really wealthy GOP areas of California are paying more tax dollars to the IRS than millions upon millions of poor black and hispanic voters who out vote the rich GOP

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

and there is no provision that allows a state to leave..

No provision is necessary. There is no provision forbidding them from leaving, so it is a reserved power.

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

What we are talking about his how to pay for it...

you say that its okay to STEAL from people to pay for law and order that they don't want...

Yet is not okay to STEAL from people to pay for the services that reduce the need for that law and order...

Pointing out that you're being inconsistent in your argument.. thus eliminating its validity...

Basically your premise appear to be that if you like what the money is used for.. then stealing from people is okay..

If you don't like what its used for, then stealing is not okay.

Hm, you make a good point. I suppose it would be possible to not tax people at all, and simply have them pay for the police and defense services they they want. That way, nobody takes anything from anyone.

Okay, I think I could support that.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

No. That amounts to democracy.eace

It's sad that you actually believe that.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

It's sad that you actually believe that.

The establishment of the CSA was an attempt to overturn the result of the election of 1860.eace

 

[rocket88]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

The establishment of the CSA was an attempt to overturn the result of the election of 1860.eace

Well, it was more about not wanting to live under the "Black Republican party" (which Jeff Davis never missed an opportunity to say). In general I agree with you about secession, and I think it's sad that someone who bills himself as a "Federalist" goes against what the Federalists stood for.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

The establishment of the CSA was an attempt to overturn the result of the election of 1860.eace

Yawn...That has nothing to do with my post.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Yawn...That has nothing to do with my post.

Ah but it does. Those who established the CSA were not fleeing slavery, they were fleeing democracy.eace

 

[Henrin]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Ah but it does. Those who established the CSA were not fleeing slavery, they were fleeing democracy.eace

That still has nothing to do with my comment.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

That still has nothing to do with my comment.

Really? Here is the text of your #1130.eace

"The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals. - Lysander Spooner

That is what really happened. Sorry, but that amounts to political slavery. Yes, I could stop using that quote, but Spooner says it far better than I ever could."