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Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.[W:963:1176:1448]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

jaeger19 said:
What I mean by not being mutually exclusive is that having a peaceful nation depends on a strong military, courts and cops. BUT not solely on those.. because it needs a strong safety net that alleviates the need for strong militaries, courts and cops.

One only has to look at the civil unrest in other countries. the vast majority stem from folks not having access to education, healthcare, safe food and water, and mobility (ie. very little safety net)... So these countries expend way more money on security.. When they could spend less on a social safety net etc thus preventing the unrest.. (which means less taxes) rather than on a military to put down the civil unrest..
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But the provision of law and order is unique in that there can only be one single legal system in any particular polity. There can be any number of agencies that offer safety nets. In this way, the two services are vastly different.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

jaeger19 said:
Actually no... states break treaties at their own peril. Many a war was started by breaking a treaty.

The States entered into a binding agreement when they ratified the constitution and agreed to be a united republic. They are not free.. any more than you are.. to break that contract simply because they want to.
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There is no provision in the contract that forbids any of the states from leaving, which makes it an "at will" contract, exactly the same as my contract between myself and my employer.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Federalist said:
I have not idea how this answers my question. You claim that the constitution was adopted as an amendment to the articles. The articles specified that any amendment had to be unanimous. However, the constitution said it would take effect when 9 states ratified. Thus, it clearly was not an amendment, because I couldn't be unless all 13 states ratified.
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If you will read the link you will see. Although the convention was not foreseen in the Articles, the states who sent delegates agreed the gathering was legitimate and they convened to revise the Articles. The historical record on this point is clear.:peace
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Henrin said:
You might not want to recognize it as such, but political slavery is slavery. The north was not fighting against slavery, but instead fighting for political slavery.
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No...

Actually the north was fighting for freedom from the political slavery forced upon it by the south. The south ruled politics by counting slaves as population, when they did not have the opportunity to vote. therefore the south had unfair representation in the House of representatives and in electing presidents.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

jaeger19 said:
No...

Actually the north was fighting for freedom from the political slavery forced upon it by the south. The south ruled politics by counting slaves as population, when they did not have the opportunity to vote. therefore the south had unfair representation in the House of representatives and in electing presidents.
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The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals. - Lysander Spooner

That is what really happened. Sorry, but that amounts to political slavery. Yes, I could stop using that quote, but Spooner says it far better than I ever could.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
If you will read the link you will see. Although the convention was not foreseen in the Articles, the states who sent delegates agreed the gathering was legitimate and they convened to revise the Articles. The historical record on this point is clear.:peace
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Any modification to the articles required unanimous ratification. Thus it is impossible that the compact established by the constitution was an amendment to the articles, since it came into force when ratified by only 9 of the states.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Federalist said:
Any modification to the articles required unanimous ratification. Thus it is impossible that the compact established by the constitution was an amendment to the articles, since it came into force when ratified by only 9 of the states.
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Neither the attendees nor the states they represented regarded that as important. Again, the record is clear that they sat to revise the Articles.:peace
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Federalist said:
There is no provision in the contract that forbids any of the states from leaving, which makes it an "at will" contract, exactly the same as my contract between myself and my employer.
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Actually your contract spells out that its an at will contract, or your state laws govern it.. ... there is no provision in the constitution that allows a state to leave..

The Supreme court agreed in Texas V White...That texas has entered into
"an indissoluble relation." It said that only through revolution or mutual consent of the state and the United States could a state leave the Union
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Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
Neither the attendees nor the states they represented regarded that as important. Again, the record is clear that they sat to revise the Articles.:peace
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Yet they didn't follow the amendment process specified in the articles, which means that, technically, they didn't amend the articles.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

jaeger19 said:
Actually your contract spells out that its an at will contract, or your state laws govern it.. ... there is no provision in the constitution that allows a state to leave..
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There is no provision that prevents a state from leaving.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Federalist said:
Yet they didn't follow the process specified in the articles, which means they didn't amend the articles.
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I'm sure the attendees would be surprised by your claim since they and the states they represented believed and affirmed that's exactly what they did.:peace
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Federalist said:
But the provision of law and order is unique in that there can only be one single legal system in any particular polity. There can be any number of agencies that offer safety nets. In this way, the two services are vastly different.
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That doesn;t refute my argument on they not being mutually exclusive...

In addition.. your argument is not reality since there are multiple agencies that offer legal systems.. civil versus criminal.. state code, federal code, federal judiciary, military code, military justice.

so on and so forth.. There is not only single legal system in the united states. Colorado has legalized pot.. is that the same legal system as Utah.. that has not?
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
I'm sure the attendees would be surprised by your claim since they and the states they represented believed and affirmed that's exactly what they did.:peace
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Was the amendment process as described in the articles carried out?
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

jaeger19 said:
That doesn;t refute my argument on they not being mutually exclusive...

In addition.. your argument is not reality since there are multiple agencies that offer legal systems.. civil versus criminal.. state code, federal code, federal judiciary, military code, military justice.

so on and so forth.. There is not only single legal system in the united states. Colorado has legalized pot.. is that the same legal system as Utah.. that has not?
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If you are suggesting that we take the provision of law and order away from government, then you'll have to explain how that would work.

On the other hand, there's no reason why any number of people can't provide support to the poor.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
No. By agreement of the states it was bypassed.:peace
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So they abandoned the articles and established an entirely new government?
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
No. Interestingly, the Constitution was entered into the documents of the Articles as an amendment. Moreover, Article VI of the Articles permits unlimited interstate agreements between individual states.
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Please cite language from articles allowing unlimited interstate agreements.

Also, the constitution could not have been an amendment, because, under the articles, amendments require approval of all 13 states, while the constitution took effect between the first 9 states to ratify it.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
That question is beyond me.
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You might take that as a sign that you need to study the subject more.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Federalist said:
Please cite language from articles allowing unlimited interstate agreements.

Also, the constitution could not have been an amendment, because, under the articles, amendments require approval of all 13 states, while the constitution took effect between the first 9 states to ratify it.
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Unfortunately, your view was not held by those who did the amending.:peace
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

jaeger19 said:
Actual.. BS to you. Your "there is abundant charity in this country".. has been tried.. its been found very much lacking. That's why we have the social programs that we do.. because local charity doesn't have the resources nor the infrastructure to get charity to the folks that need it.

That's a reality from the get go.. because government programs didn't develop in a vacuum.. they developed because local charity was not getting the job done.

"Vote buying dependency schemes that the DNC has foisted upon us"... you're kidding right? Because if not.. you need a reality check. I live in a red state.. republican as all get out. We have had a republican controlled congress, a republican governor, and republican senators for more than two decades. and GUESS WHAT... for every dollar we send to the federal government in taxes.. we get MORE than we paid in in the form of Medicaid, snap, tanf and education etc.
And so it goes for a whole bunch of other red states. And the reality is that BLUE states.. like NY, and California... give more in taxes than they get back in welfare from the federal government.

That doesn't fit well with your "vote buying" narrative...
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again. a most interesting conservative perspective-defending all the big government encroachments on the tenth amendment.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
Unfortunately, your view was not held by those who did the amending.:peace
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The amendment process required all amendments to be unanimous. Thus, the articles could not have been amended.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Federalist said:
The amendment process required all amendments to be unanimous. Thus, the articles could not have been amended.
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And yet the Constitution was entered into the documents of the Articles as an amendment.:peace
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Jack Hays said:
And yet the Constitution was entered into the documents of the Articles as an amendment.:peace
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Not legally possible. The articles required all thirteen member countries to ratify any amendment.
 
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