'Pro-life' supporters of the creation of a new criminal statute

[WorldWatcher]

"That's a different question that the OP is asking.
The question is, if abortion is murder, what should be the charges and punishments."

I know what I was asking. I wrote it, and the phrase 'if abortion is murder..' as a premise for their input in response were decidedly not typed. Instead I chose the lay term 'to kill' without the same legal baggage, so that they did NOT HAVE to be stuck with some murder statute. My purpose and yours are not identical here.

Roger.

WW

 

[Gordy327]

Abortion has been equated with murder for the last 50 years.

The can of worms being addressed is the can that those against abortion have been presenting, it's time for them to be consistent based on their claims.

WW

Wrong. Abortion was never deemed or equated with murder in law. Only peoples ignorance or irrationality equated Abortion with murder. Those against abortion can't even provide a single rational reason to restrict or prohibit abortion before viability. They usually resort to emotional reasons. But I've heard various "punishments" for abortion presented, including jail time, sterilization, ect.. one even said once women who die from abortion deserve it.

 

[btthegreat]

Wrong. Abortion was never deemed or equated with murder in law. Only peoples ignorance or irrationality equated Abortion with murder. Those against abortion can't even provide a single rational reason to restrict or prohibit abortion before viability. They usually resort to emotional reasons. But I've heard various "punishments" for abortion presented, including jail time, sterilization, ect.. one even said once women who die from abortion deserve it.

I definitely have heard it called with 'murder', but by lay people who don't know enough to avoid using words with legal significance and definition already sitting in statutes and never needed to before, unless they really intend to use those statutes to define the penalty. Now that these same folk will be actually be left in charge of an agenda, including writing the statutes that punish these evid doers, they have to start picking their words more carefully. WW is right in the sense that consistency is called for if they are using legal language to describe the act when that is not what they really mean with regard to sentencing the act.

If they mean these defendents not to be seen and treated as though they have committed homicide , then they better stop talking as though they should be.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Wrong. Abortion was never deemed or equated with murder in law. Only peoples ignorance or irrationality equated Abortion with murder. Those against abortion can't even provide a single rational reason to restrict or prohibit abortion before viability. They usually resort to emotional reasons. But I've heard various "punishments" for abortion presented, including jail time, sterilization, ect.. one even said once women who die from abortion deserve it.

I didn't say it existed in law, but of course it did in some places and times in the past.

I said many of those that called for banning abortions have called it murder.

WW

 

[Gordy327]

I definitely have heard it called with 'murder', but by lay people who don't know enough to avoid using words with legal significance and definition already sitting in statutes and never needed to before, unless they really intend to use those statutes to define the penalty. Now that these same folk will be actually be left in charge of an agenda, including writing the statutes that punish these evid doers, they have to start picking their words more carefully. WW is right in the sense that consistency is called for if they are using legal language to describe the act when that is not what they really mean with regard to sentencing the act.

If they mean these defendents not to be seen and treated as though they have committed homicide , then they better stop talking as though they should be.

Laypeople and those with a bias or agenda might call it murder, as they do not know (or care) any better. But it's inaccurate at best and otherwise disingenuous. From a legal perspective, abortion is not deemed or defined as murder.

 

[Gordy327]

I didn't say it existed in law, but of course it did in some places and times in the past.

I said many of those that called for banning abortions have called it murder.

WW

Those who call or have called abortion murder are just plain wrong then.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Those who call or have called abortion murder are just plain wrong then.

OK, I am saying though that their actions should match their rhetoric.

WW

 

[WorldWatcher]

Laypeople and those with a bias or agenda might call it murder, as they do not know (or care) any better. But it's inaccurate at best and otherwise disingenuous. From a legal perspective, abortion is not deemed or defined as murder.

See that's the point.

Ask anyone if a woman hiring a contract killer to murder her husband is murder and the response will be yes.

Ask someone that supports banning abortion after conception if a woman hiring a contract killer to murder her husband is murder and the response will be yes.

Ask someone that supports banning abortion if a woman hires a contract killer to murder a 3-year old is murder and the response will be yes.

Ask someone that supports banning abortion after conception if a woman hiring a contract killer to murder her unborn baby is murder and the response will be yes.
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.
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As such they should support the same punishments for all three cases.

WW

 

[Gordy327]

See that's the point.

Ask anyone if a woman hiring a contract killer to murder her husband is murder and the response will be yes.

Ask someone that supports banning abortion after conception if a woman hiring a contract killer to murder her husband is murder and the response will be yes.

Ask someone that supports banning abortion if a woman hires a contract killer to murder a 3-year old is murder and the response will be yes.

Ask someone that supports banning abortion after conception if a woman hiring a contract killer to murder her unborn baby is murder and the response will be yes.
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.
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As such they should support the same punishments for all three cases.

WW

Except it's the contract killer that's the murderer. The wife is an accomplice. Different legal charges with different potential punishments. One also cannot honestly or logically equate a born individual with an unborn, especially in the earlier stages of gestation. They're not comparable. Those who do so demonstrate a profound ignorance of law, embryology, and even demonstrate sn emotional bias. Those are not ideal methods or circumstances to establish an objective set of law and punishment.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Except it's the contract killer that's the murderer. The wife is an accomplice. Different legal charges with different potential punishments. One also cannot honestly or logically equate a born individual with an unborn, especially in the earlier stages of gestation. They're not comparable. Those who do so demonstrate a profound ignorance of law, embryology, and even demonstrate sn emotional bias. Those are not ideal methods or circumstances to establish an objective set of law and punishment.

Fla. Man Sentenced for Hiring Hitman to Kill Pregnant Wife Over $500,000 Insurance Policy

"I have nothing bad to say about him," the victim's grandmother told the court. "All I wanted was justice for my child. Nobody wins in the case."

lawandcrime.com

Convicted for murder in the first degree for hiring a contract killer to kill the spouse.

Again the point is, if some - as they have done for decades - are going to call it murder, simply have the testicular fortitude to standup and have the new laws reflect that.

Simple.

WW

 

[Luce]

Just chop their feet off. They'll never do it again.

 

[btthegreat]

Laypeople and those with a bias or agenda might call it murder, as they do not know (or care) any better. But it's inaccurate at best and otherwise disingenuous. From a legal perspective, abortion is not deemed or defined as murder.

Its statutes that define murder or homocide in any jurisdiction and statutes can be amended to include or exclude whatever elements or definitional criteria legislature deems an 'improvement' whenever they have the votes. They sure as hell can make your distinctions utterly meaningless from any practical application. All they need to do, is change the word 'homicide' or murder to a phrase 'homicide or abortion' throughout their statutes and add a definition of abortion into their books. Problem solved.

sloppy language use is a lot more excusable in debate, when you don't have the authority or responsibility permitting that sloppiness to impact public policy. the pro life folk no longer have that luxury.

 

[Lursa]

I didn't say it existed in law, but of course it did in some places and times in the past.

I said many of those that called for banning abortions have called it murder.

WW

And many people who watched Jan 6 called it 'mostly tourists just visiting the Capitol.'

Is it your point that any perspective should be considered, accuracy or reality be damned?

 

[btthegreat]

And many people who watched Jan 6 called it 'mostly tourists just visiting the Capitol.'

Is it your point that any perspective should be considered, accuracy or reality be damned?

I may be wrong but what I think the goal is, is to say that any consideration of penalties lesser than those attached to murder, is inconsistent with the demonizing hyperbole that they themselves used for the last fifty years in order to force pro-lifers back into a box of their own creation. That forces an uncomfortable choice on the majority of pro- lifers who wanted to punish the provider, and the support system, but at least legally give a relative slap on the wrist to the woman. Its about denying them any easy out while they search for a way to make this whole mess more palatable to the rest of America who is not enamoured by the propaganda of the religious far right, more than it is to see those murder sentences actually attend any woman's long walk to Cell block A

 

[weaver2]

I may be wrong but what I think the goal is, is to say that any consideration of penalties lesser than those attached to murder, is inconsistent with the demonizing hyperbole that they themselves used for the last fifty years in order to force pro-lifers back into a box of their own creation. That forces an uncomfortable choice on the majority of pro- lifers who wanted to punish the provider, and the support system, but at least legally give a relative slap on the wrist to the woman. Its about denying them any easy out while they search for a way to make this whole mess more palatable to the rest of America who is not enamoured by the propaganda of the religious far right, more than it is to see those murder sentences actually attend any woman's long walk to Cell block A

If we are going to advocate for criminal charges against women who abort because they have killed a fetus, then we need to institute criminal charges against the idiots who emote over the death of a fetus but recommend the building more jails in which to put their un-aborated fetuses that grew up into criminals, just like the statistics said would happen to unwanted children of poor families that said they couldn't care for a child or another child at that time.

Aborting a fetus is not the only way to destroy a life. It is however way more humane than destroying that life when abortion has been banned

 

[WorldWatcher]

And many people who watched Jan 6 called it 'mostly tourists just visiting the Capitol.'

Is it your point that any perspective should be considered, accuracy or reality be damned?

I may be wrong but what I think the goal is, is to say that any consideration of penalties lesser than those attached to murder, is inconsistent with the demonizing hyperbole that they themselves used for the last fifty years in order to force pro-lifers back into a box of their own creation. That forces an uncomfortable choice on the majority of pro- lifers who wanted to punish the provider, and the support system, but at least legally give a relative slap on the wrist to the woman. Its about denying them any easy out while they search for a way to make this whole mess more palatable to the rest of America who is not enamoured by the propaganda of the religious far right, more than it is to see those murder sentences actually attend any woman's long walk to Cell block A

btthegreat gets it...

With Roe soon to be over turned, I've watch the same people that called it murder for decades now say:

"Ban abortion and punish anyone associated with providing chemical or abortion services as criminals."

"Make it so that anyone can sue someone in civil court 'aiding and abetting' anyone who assists someone (counseling, travel, funding, etc.) in getting an abortion."
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But don't punish the woman equally because, well that would be mean and women might not like it. The woman that contracts with someone to murder their unborn baby see is actually the victim here.

WW

 

[btthegreat]

btthegreat gets it...

With Roe soon to be over turned, I've watch the same people that called it murder for decades now say:

"Ban abortion and punish anyone associated with providing chemical or abortion services as criminals."

"Make it so that anyone can sue someone in civil court 'aiding and abetting' anyone who assists someone (counseling, travel, funding, etc.) in getting an abortion."
.
.
.
But don't punish the woman equally because, well that would be mean and women might not like it. The woman that contracts with someone to murder their unborn baby see is actually the victim here.

WW

I have actually posted this same thread in more than one forum. You won't be surprised to discover how incredibly few genuine replies I have gotten from my target group. Nobody is interested in talking. My fishing line is getting tangled not stretched.

 

[Lursa]

I have actually posted this same thread in more than one forum. You won't be surprised to discover how incredibly few genuine replies I have gotten from my target group. Nobody is interested in talking. My fishing line is getting tangled not stretched.

If many pro-life supporters cant blurt out emotionally manipulative self-righteousness, they often dont bother participating.

 

[Integrityrespec]

I was offering my own opinion on the matter. There shouldnt be charges or punishments, as there is no person being aborted. Equating abortion with murder is going to open a whole can of worms. Penalties are not likely to be applied evenly across the board among different states.

That's strictly an opinion with many opposing opinions. A life is lost when a baby is aborted, that's a fact. The restrictions on abortion are going to be the first hurdle before the punishment phase. The left can tell itself there is no murder, no life is taken, no human dies, but in reality a life is lost in abortion every time. A human being is prevented from being born, a human life taken. All the double talk and claims of a clump of cells doesn't change that loss.

 

[Antiwar]

If we are going to advocate for criminal charges against women who abort because they have killed a fetus, then we need to institute criminal charges against the idiots who emote over the death of a fetus but recommend the building more jails in which to put their un-aborated fetuses that grew up into criminals, just like the statistics said would happen to unwanted children of poor families that said they couldn't care for a child or another child at that time.

Aborting a fetus is not the only way to destroy a life. It is however way more humane than destroying that life when abortion has been banned

Odd arguments.

 

[btthegreat]

If many pro-life supporters cant blurt out emotionally manipulative self-righteousness, they often dont bother participating.

there's not much that's going to work well for them discussing this topic. Mostly they want to keep their heads down rather than ramp up a discussion of how to punish a woman with a prison sentence, seeking a medical procedure that was perfectly legal before Moscow Mitch stole a seat from Obama to hand to Trump.

 

[Integrityrespec]

Wrong. Abortion was never deemed or equated with murder in law. Only peoples ignorance or irrationality equated Abortion with murder. Those against abortion can't even provide a single rational reason to restrict or prohibit abortion before viability. They usually resort to emotional reasons. But I've heard various "punishments" for abortion presented, including jail time, sterilization, ect.. one even said once women who die from abortion deserve it.

Here we go again. This constant, no life is taken, no life loss, no baby dies, no human being is murdered. Well what is taken? It's a life of a human being that will never be born. No other explanation accepts that fact. A human life is taken. The most valuable resource we have, a life, a child, a human being will not be born because of abortion. If that doesn't mean anything to you then we have no place to engage in a debate on the topic because you don't care about the life.
The same excuse that you say white supremacist make about devaluing black lives is exactly what the pro-abortion side is doing. Less than human, life means nothing, kill it, ignore it, let it go.
If lives matter, then where is the compassion from the left for the unborn child in the womb?

 

[Antiwar]

I think the better question is: How would you force women and girls to give birth?

Also: Do "pro-life" people think the death penalty is appropriate for girls and women who have an abortion?

And: Should a "pro-life" father be rewarded for saving an innocent baby's life when he incestuously raped his daughter?

 

[weaver2]

Odd arguments.

Not really. 90% of the young men currently incarcerated have been in foster care. Where do the foster care kids come from: families that had unwanted pregnancies and/or more children than they could handle.

 

[Antiwar]

Not really. 90% of the young men currently incarcerated have been in foster care. Where do the foster care kids come from: families that had unwanted pregnancies and/or more children than they could handle.

That's a good point. You should just make that points like that instead of the comment you made. That comment reminds me of the tortured logic that vocal gun proponents use.