'Pro-life' supporters of the creation of a new criminal statute

[btthegreat]

I do NOT WANT THIS TO DEBATE LEGALIZED ABORTION, or the constitutional right of privacy, PLEASE. We have plenty of those threads. Nor am I interested in what you want to do with the abortion providers, or 'co-conspirators' who aide and abet. Thats outside the scope of this thread and serves only to derail or deflect from the penalty you are imposing on this woman.

I thought we might find out precisely what your proposal would be to punish women who chose to 'kill' their unborn'. Let's find your maximum minimum sentencing guidelines for a federal or state newly created crime of inducing their abortion through a chemical, pharmaceutical or physical procedure. I hope to learn if you want having an abortion to be a misdemeanor low level crime with token jail time, or a penalty commensurate with a manslaughter or third degree murder rap, or maybe an aggravating sentencing factor to first degree homicide and a capital offense. Exactly what the range for years incarceration you would oblige judges to sentence these criminals for. Here's some possible options to choose from.

Maybe you see it as a misdemeanor mitigated by duress, worthy of at most a year incarceration, fine and some community service
Are we talking ...
A. no jail time $500 to $1000 fine plus 100 hours of community service.
B. 6 months to a yr incarceration, $5000 to 25,000 and maybe 300 hours of community service.
C. 1 year incarceration, $10,000 to 50,000 in fines, and 500 hours of community service

Or a serious crime requiring judges to throw a heavier book
A . 18 months to 5 years
B. 5 years to twenty of confinement
C. 15 years to life
D. Would you call abortion an aggravating factor of first degree murder, and demand either a life sentence or the death penalty?

If you are a real softy on this offense, I suppose you could treat it like a parking infraction, and offer just a ticket with a choice to appear or just send in the money.

If there is a 'seeking or attempting an abortion' crime for those who never had the procedure what are its penalties?

Do you see a conviction of any of these abortion laws above, going towards their habitual offender status under Three Strikes law?

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

Answer:

 

[btthegreat]

Answer:

View attachment 67391296

Soo many baby killers there, but then I think Canada precludes the death penalty as an option, so they are likely to accrue exponentially like a Mastercard finance charge on its penal system. You might want to look into a really streamlined conveyor belt-like capital punishment option to make it more affordable on the provinces.

 

[Bear5131]

Remind us when we do anything with real killers and I will see the point of this hyperbole

Suspects out on bond have killed more than 150 people in Harris County - What's Your Point?

In Harris County, no fewer than 113 defendants charged with capital murder - have been inexplicably granted bond and released back onto our streets pending trial.

www.google.com

 

[btthegreat]

Remind us when we do anything with real killers and I will see the point of this hyperbole

Suspects out on bond have killed more than 150 people in Harris County - What's Your Point?

In Harris County, no fewer than 113 defendants charged with capital murder - have been inexplicably granted bond and released back onto our streets pending trial.

www.google.com

Bear, you are smarter than this. You realize we can read your links. I am not asking you to come up with proposals to punish people who are suspects charged with having or seeking an abortion. We don't normally have sentencing guidelines for suspects. Now try to answer the questions posed by the OP, or go find something better to do than insult my intellect with blatant deflection. There is no 'hyberbole' in the OP. There is a fairly complete range of choices based on the premise that facilitating or aiding and abetting the killing young humans is criminal conduct. Its not something the most prominent of pro-lifers saw as hyperbole, when Trump himself proposed penalties.

 

[HIP56948]

Let's do what the Bible says>>
.
When Onan had sex with Tamar, he withdrew before he ejaculated and "spilled his seed on the ground". The next statement in the Bible says that Onan did evil and that God slew him.
Let's tie this law in the same decision that the Supreme court will make soon.
THAT would stop all this God-Damn bullshit.

 

[Bear5131]

Bear, you are smarter than this. I am not asking you to come up with proposals to punish people who are suspects charged with having or seeking an abortion. We don't normally have sentencing guidelines for suspects. Now try to answer the questions posed by the OP, or go find something better to do than insult my intellect with blatant deflection.

I apologize I was just making a point nothing is done with real killers.

Only the far right would support any punishment, most wouldn't want the woman punished or doctors

 

[Bear5131]

Let's do what the Bible says>>
.
When Onan had sex with Tamar, he withdrew before he ejaculated and "spilled his seed on the ground". The next statement in the Bible says that Onan did evil and that God slew him.
Let's tie this law in the same decision that the Supreme court will make soon.
THAT would stop all this God-Damn bullshit.

I thought Tamar had sex with her father in law Judah dressed as a prostitute?

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

Soo many baby killers there, but then I think Canada precludes the death penalty as an option, so they are likely to accrue exponentially like a Mastercard finance charge on its penal system. You might want to look into a really streamlined conveyor belt-like capital punishment option to make it more affordable on the provinces.

Abortion is legal in Canada.

 

[btthegreat]

I apologize I was just making a point nothing is done with real killers.

Only the far right would support any punishment, most wouldn't want the woman punished or doctors

I take it that you do not support the creation of a new criminal statute penalizing the conduct of the woman who executed a premeditated plan leading directly to the killing of that unborn human life and that you see Donald Trump as representing a far right view when he says penalties must be considered for women who do so.

 

[btthegreat]

Abortion is legal in Canada.

Well trust me on this, complacency on that score is ill advised. Best to plan ahead.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

Remind us when we do anything with real killers and I will see the point of this hyperbole

Suspects out on bond have killed more than 150 people in Harris County - What's Your Point?

In Harris County, no fewer than 113 defendants charged with capital murder - have been inexplicably granted bond and released back onto our streets pending trial.

www.google.com

Whataboutism gives a clue to its meaning in its name. It is not merely the changing of a subject to deflect away from an earlier subject as a political strategy; it’s essentially a reversal of accusation, arguing that an opponent is guilty of an offense just as egregious or worse than what the original party was accused of doing, however unconnected the offenses may be.

The tactic behind whataboutism has been around for a long time. Rhetoricians generally consider it to be a form of tu quoque, which means "you too" in Latin and involves charging your accuser with whatever it is you've just been accused of rather than refuting the truth of the accusation made against you. Tu quoque is considered to be a logical fallacy, because whether or not the original accuser is likewise guilty of an offense has no bearing on the truth value of the original accusation.

What about 'whataboutism'?

If everyone is guilty of something, is no one guilty of anything?

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[WorldWatcher]

I don't have an issue with Roe being overturned and returned to the States as murder is in the purview of the states with certain exceptions (i.e. killing a federal officer, murder on federal property, etc.). For 50 years we've been told that abortion is murder.

So, for each state that wishes to ban abortion because it's murder, then then equal treatment under the law says that it should be considered to be murder under similar circumstances. If a wife is charged with a degree of murder because she hires a contract killer to murder her husband. Than also should that same degree apply to a woman that hires a contract killer to murder her unborn baby. The punishment for the wife murdering her husband and the woman murdering her baby should be the same.

WW

 

[btthegreat]

I don't have an issue with Roe being overturned and returned to the States as murder is in the purview of the states with certain exceptions (i.e. killing a federal officer, murder on federal property, etc.). For 50 years we've been told that abortion is murder.

So, for each state that wishes to ban abortion because it's murder, then then equal treatment under the law says that it should be considered to be murder under similar circumstances. If a wife is charged with a degree of murder because she hires a contract killer to murder her husband. Than also should that same degree apply to a woman that hires a contract killer to murder her unborn baby. The punishment for the wife murdering her husband and the woman murdering her baby should be the same.

WW

yeah! We have our first answer!

 

[WorldWatcher]

Can I have my cookie now?

WW

 

[HIP56948]

i .I thought Tamar had sex with her fat1her in law Judah dressed as a prostitute?

The bastard probably did that to. I never liked the dude anyway.

 

[Gordy327]

Abortion should not be criminalized at all, especially before viability. States that try to do so seem to be on a power trip and probably do not take the woman's welfare into consideration.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Abortion should not be criminalized at all, especially before viability. States that try to do so seem to be on a power trip and probably do not take the woman's welfare into consideration.

That's a different question that the OP is asking.

The question is, if abortion is murder, what should be the charges and punishments. Not whether abortion should be legal.

Murder laws should be consistently applied.

WW

 

[Gordy327]

That's a different question that the OP is asking.

The question is, if abortion is murder, what should be the charges and punishments. Not whether abortion should be legal.

Murder laws should be consistently applied.

WW

I was offering my own opinion on the matter. There shouldnt be charges or punishments, as there is no person being aborted. Equating abortion with murder is going to open a whole can of worms. Penalties are not likely to be applied evenly across the board among different states.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I was offering my own opinion on the matter. There shouldnt be charges or punishments, as there is no person being aborted. Equating abortion with murder is going to open a whole can of worms. Penalties are not likely to be applied evenly across the board among different states.

Abortion has been equated with murder for the last 50 years.

The can of worms being addressed is the can that those against abortion have been presenting, it's time for them to be consistent based on their claims.

WW

 

[dockside]

That's a different question that the OP is asking.

The question is, if abortion is murder, what should be the charges and punishments. Not whether abortion should be legal.

Murder laws should be consistently applied.

WW

There is no consistency in applying a murder law to a zygote or any other form of pregnancy as that clump of cells that I flushed down the toilet when I had a miscarriage at 8 weeks was not a person and would not be a person until it was developed enough to breathe on its own. Some may believe it is a person but it is not a belief shared by all citizens. It is a potential person, just like an acorn is a potential tree, a bean seed is a potential bean plant, a chicken egg is not a chicken but a potential chicken.

 

[btthegreat]

That's a different question that the OP is asking.

The question is, if abortion is murder, what should be the charges and punishments. Not whether abortion should be legal.

Murder laws should be consistently applied.

WW

Not true. I asked about criminal statutes directed at the woman who I referred to as choosing 'to kill the unborn' including the possibility of homicide or aggravated homicide. If they want to define it as manslaughter in their statute or label it as its own charge of 'abortion' in the statute, that is up to them. You mention the logical consistency between the hiring of a contract killer, but I am far more open to lesser treatment even as a misdemeanors which can still technically be treated as a crime. Treating it as an infraction borders on the ludicrous, but... this thread is more open ended than you envision - as long as we are focused on a statutory penalty fixed on the woman. I am curious about the range of views, more than any consistency or definitional cage.

 

[WorldWatcher]

There is no consistency in applying a murder law to a zygote or any other form of pregnancy as that clump of cells that I flushed down the toilet when I had a miscarriage at 8 weeks was not a person and would not be a person until it was developed enough to breathe on its own. Some may believe it is a person but it is not a belief shared by all citizens. It is a potential person, just like an acorn is a potential tree, a bean seed is a potential bean plant, a chicken egg is not a chicken but a potential chicken.

You may not grasping what I'm saying.

Those against abortion being available at all have told us for 50 years that abortion is murder. It's time for them to put that into action.

WW

 

[WorldWatcher]

Not true. I asked about criminal statutes directed at the woman who I referred to as choosing 'to kill the unborn' including the possibility of homicide or aggravated homicide. If they want to define it as manslaughter in their statute or label it as its own charge of 'abortion' in the statute, that is up to them. You mention the logical consistency between the hiring of a contract killer, but I am far more open to lesser treatment even as a misdemeanors which can still technically be treated as a crime. Treating it as an infraction borders on the ludicrous, but... this thread is more open ended than you envision - as long as we are focused on a statutory penalty fixed on the woman.

I believe I grasped your OP.

I believe I have provided responses within that vain.

I believe I have simply called for equal application of the law for similar circumstances. (e.g. A person contracts with another person to kill a third person.)

WW

 

[btthegreat]

You may not grasping what I'm saying.

Those against abortion being available at all have told us for 50 years that abortion is murder. It's time for them to put that into action.

WW

"That's a different question that the OP is asking.
The question is, if abortion is murder, what should be the charges and punishments."

I know what I was asking. I wrote it, and the phrase 'if abortion is murder..' as a premise for their input in response were decidedly not typed. Instead I chose the lay term 'to kill' without the same legal baggage, so that they did NOT HAVE to be stuck with some murder statute. My purpose and yours are not identical here.