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Pro-Choice, or Pro-Death?

Bodhisattva said:
Is he not able to tell if he is aware of himself? What are you worried about? Can't you tell that you are self-aware?

Philoshophical thought is really lost on you, isn't it. Go to a college class.
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Hell, go to a vocational class....
 
Thunder said:
by providing zero evidence, it is clear that yours is aswell.

you appear to simply wish to assume that a "ZEF" has consciousness, at all stages.

This is regardless of the lack of evidence suggesting such.

But hey, if you can have such strong beliefs based on a complete lack of evidence, than so can we.

:)
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Oh my ****ing god... I clearly stated OVER AND OVER that I don't know. Consequently I don't believe one way or the other. I am about done with you... you can't even grasp the most basic of conversations.
 
Thunder said:
he is right though.

we really have no evidence that a one-day old Zygote is not conscious.

...;)
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He is not right. We do know that a certain amount of brain development is necessary of consciousness, and that seems like a fairly basic idea.


When Does Consciousness Arise in Human Babies?: Scientific American

But when does the magical journey of consciousness begin? Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation. Roughly two months later synchrony of the electroencephalographic (EEG) rhythm across both cortical hemispheres signals the onset of global neuronal integration. Thus, many of the circuit elements necessary for consciousness are in place by the third trimester.
 
OKgrannie said:
url=http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=when-does-consciousness-arise]When Does Consciousness Arise in Human Babies?: Scientific American[/url]

But when does the magical journey of consciousness begin? Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation. Roughly two months later synchrony of the electroencephalographic (EEG) rhythm across both cortical hemispheres signals the onset of global neuronal integration. Thus, many of the circuit elements necessary for consciousness are in place by the third trimester.
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and there it is!!

clear and concise evidence that a one-day old Zygote, simply CANNOT be conscious.

let alone a 4-month old fetus.
 
mac said:
No, in other words, the statistics show that rougly 50% of the United States population is pro-life. All pro-lifers believe that humans are human and worthy of rights and protections from conception on. Do you dispute that or are you just going to cast dispersions?
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Now is it roughly? OK I got it you did pull it out of your ass.
By the way it is aspersions not dispersions. Do try to learn and understand big words before you attempt to use them.
 
Thunder said:
and there it is!!

clear and concise evidence that a one-day old Zygote, simply CANNOT be conscious.

let alone a 4-month old fetus.
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Dude, do you think for yourself in the slightest? From the same article... and one of the worst from Scientific American in a long time.

"a newborn lacks self-awareness"

and then this:

"It is therefore likely that the baby has some basic level of unreflective, present-oriented consciousness."

It is all over the place and is anything but clear and concise. It is also just a summation of observations and proves nothing conclusively.
 
OKgrannie said:
He is not right. We do know that a certain amount of brain development is necessary of consciousness, and that seems like a fairly basic idea.


When Does Consciousness Arise in Human Babies?: Scientific American

But when does the magical journey of consciousness begin? Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation. Roughly two months later synchrony of the electroencephalographic (EEG) rhythm across both cortical hemispheres signals the onset of global neuronal integration. Thus, many of the circuit elements necessary for consciousness are in place by the third trimester.
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What exactly is it that you think this article actually says?
 
Thunder said:
guess what?

now I have seen evidence, and now I KNOW.

a one-day old Zygote CANNOT be conscious...let alone a 2-month old fetus.

boy that feels good.
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What is sad is that you are probably old enough to vote... some people just believe whatever they are shown or told. Sad.
 
No, Zefs are not conscious.



Mothers will want to crucify me for this seemingly cruel question, but it needs to be posed: How do we know that a newly born and healthy infant is conscious? There is no question that the baby is awake. Its eyes are wide open, it wriggles and grimaces, and, most important, it cries. But all that is not the same as being conscious, of experiencing pain, seeing red or smelling Mom’s milk.

It is well recognized that infants have no awareness of their own state, emotions and motivations. Even older children who can speak have very limited insight into their own actions.Although a newborn lacks self-awareness, the baby processes complex visual stimuli and attends to sounds and sights in its world, preferentially looking at faces. The infant’s visual acuity permits it to see only blobs, but the basic thalamo-cortical circuitry necessary to support simple visual and other conscious percepts is in place. And linguistic capacities in babies are shaped by the environment they grow up in. Exposure to maternal speech sounds in the muffled confines of the womb enables the fetus to pick up statistical regularities so that the newborn can distinguish its mother’s voice and even her language from others. A more complex behavior is imitation: if Dad sticks out his tongue and waggles it, the infant mimics his gesture by combining visual information with proprioceptive feedback from its own movements. It is therefore likely that the baby has some basic level of unreflective, present-oriented consciousness.But when does the magical journey of consciousness begin? Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation. Roughly two months later synchrony of the electroencephalographic (EEG) rhythm across both cortical hemispheres signals the onset of global neuronal integration. Thus, many of the circuit elements necessary for consciousness are in place by the third trimester. By this time, preterm infants can survive outside the womb under proper medical care. And as it is so much easier to observe and interact with a preterm baby than with a fetus of the same gestational age in the womb, the fetus is often considered to be like a preterm baby, like an unborn newborn. But this notion disregards the unique uterine environment: suspended in a warm and dark cave, connected to the placenta that pumps blood, nutrients and hormones into its growing body and brain, the fetus is asleep.

Invasive experiments in rat and lamb pups and observational studies using ultrasound and electrical recordings in humans show that the third-trimester fetus is almost always in one of two sleep states. Called active and quiet sleep, these states can be distinguished using electroencephalography. Their different EEG signatures go hand in hand with distinct behaviors: breathing, swallowing, licking, and moving the eyes but no large-scale body movements in active sleep; no breathing, no eye movements and tonic muscle activity in quiet sleep. These stages correspond to rapid-eye-movement (REM) and slow-wave sleep common to all mammals. In late gestation the fetus is in one of these two sleep states 95 percent of the time, separated by brief transitions.

What is fascinating is the discovery that the fetus is actively sedated by the low oxygen pressure (equivalent to that at the top of Mount Everest), the warm and cushioned uterine environment and a range of neuroinhibitory and sleep-inducing substances produced by the placenta and the fetus itself: adenosine; two steroidal anesthetics, allopregnanolone and pregnanolone; one potent hormone, prostaglandin D2; and others. The role of the placenta in maintaining sedation is revealed when the umbilical cord is closed off while keeping the fetus adequately supplied with oxygen. The lamb embryo now moves and breathes continuously. From all this evidence, neonatologists conclude that the fetus is asleep while its brain matures.
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http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=when-does-consciousness-arise
 
Bodhisattva said:
Dude, do you think for yourself in the slightest?
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this is the exact same thing that is said to me by 9-11 Truthers, when I tell them that I trust the professional and educated opinions of highly qualified expert engineers & architects.

my friend, when it comes to issues of biology, chemistry, human anatomy, engineering, architecture, physics, etc etc......I do NOT rely upon my truly unexperienced and untrained gut feelings and novice understandings, and follow the very experienced and trained views of the EXPERTS.

and so should you.
 
Thunder said:
this is the exact same thing that is said to me by 9-11 Truthers, when I tell them that I trust the professional and educated opinions of highly qualified expert engineers & architects.

my friend, when it comes to issues of biology, chemistry, human anatomy, engineering, architecture, physics, etc etc......I do NOT rely upon my truly unexperienced and untrained gut feelings and novice understandings, and follow the very experienced and trained views of the EXPERTS.

and so should you.
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Yeah, I am not a truther and I am educated enought to reach valid conclusions based upon what experts find.
 
prometeus said:
Now is it roughly? OK I got it you did pull it out of your ass.
By the way it is aspersions not dispersions. Do try to learn and understand big words before you attempt to use them.
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How many times do you have to be shown this?
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Americans Still Split Along "Pro-Choice," "Pro-Life" Lines

I know it's aspersions...it auto-corrected. Take your memory pill before casting any more....
 
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Thunder said:
derail noted.
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Well, you aren't responding to my post that shows how badly you interpret the articles findings, so I am now just playing with you.
 
Bodhisattva said:
It is all over the place and is anything but clear and concise. It is also just a summation of observations and proves nothing conclusively.
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Well, it appears you and I are the only ones that see that.
 
mac said:
Well, it appears you and I are the only ones that see that.
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What is amazing is the insistance of an opinion despite complete lack of evidence. Hell, if it is proven, I know that I would alter my stance on this some... not a lot, but some. You would think that that was motivation enough for some...
 
Bodhisattva said:
I am getting a litte depressed by a few of you at how horrible your reading comprehension is... :(
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Quit trolling, and respond to the article I posted. Do you need me to point out where the article clearly noted that the complex neurological connections necessary for consciousness do not even begin to develop until the fetus is at least 24 months into the pregnancy? Because you clearly didn't read the article. Not surprising.
 
mac said:
I did...it contradicts itself and many other studies....specifically regarding pain response.
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I was responding so fast and furious that I thought that I was responding to Thunder. Sorry... :)
 
evanescence said:
Quit trolling, and respond to the article I posted. Do you need me to point out where the article clearly noted that the complex neurological connections necessary for consciousness do not even begin to develop until the fetus is at least 24 months into the pregnancy? Because you clearly didn't read the article. Not surprising.
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I responded directly from the article to Thunder just prior to responding to you and I clearly showed the inconsistancies and vagueness of the findings as well as how utterly wrong you and those thinking that this is Bible Verse are...
 
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