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As I said elsewhere, pepper spray is no weapon, it's a spice.
It's all fun and games until someone has an asthma attack and dies, or some lady has a miscarriage.
Identify the hyper partisan members who will take two different situations (an unintentional termination of a pregnancy and the intentional termination of one) and treat them like the same thing to score political points.
Whether or not they are totally different situations is actually dependent on the reasoning people have for opposing abortion. If they consider fetuses to be full human lives, then they need to view this event from the perspective that the use of pepper spray and blows to the stomach with police batons constitute lethal force (with regard to fetuses).
Then they need to look at whether or not lethal force was warranted in these instances (would they be just as supportive of police discharging their firearms into the crowd, for example).
I've seen many people supporting the use of police batons to the stomach and pepper spray in these cases, both of which could qualify as lethal force for a gestating fetus. If people want fetuses to have full rights, then they need to redefine their views about what constitutes lethal force in these situations where an unknown number of fetuses may be present.
Ultimately, it becomes about the consistency of people's logic.
If the peorsn opposes or supports abortion for other reasons, they'd have a much different array of responses that could be logically consistent (depending on their specific logic).
This is unbelievable!!!
Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed | Video Cafe
A woman who was pepper sprayed during during a raid on Occupy Seattle last week is blaming police after she miscarried Sunday.
Jennifer Fox, 19, told The Stranger that she had been with the Occupy protests since they started in Westlake Park. She said she was homeless and three months pregnant, but felt the need to join activists during their march last Tuesday.
"I was standing in the middle of the crowd when the police started moving in," Fox recalled. "I was screaming, 'I am pregnant, I am pregnant. Let me through. I am trying to get out.'"
She claimed that police hit her in the stomach twice before pepper spraying her. One officer struck her with his foot and another pushed his bicycle into her. It wasn't clear if either of those incidents were intentional."Right before I turned, both cops lifted their pepper spray and sprayed me. My eyes puffed up and my eyes swelled shut," Fox said.
Seattle Post-Intelligencer photographer Joshua Trujillo snapped a picture of Fox in apparent agony as another activist carried her to an ambulance.Seattle fire department spokesman Kyle Moore told The Washington Post that a 19-year-old pregnant woman was among those that were examined by paramedics.
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"I was worried about it [when I joined the protests], but I didn't know it would be this bad. I didn't know that a cop would murder a baby that's not born yet... I am trying to get lawyers."
Do you expect there'll be sympathy for this young woman? Not in most camps there won't. Three months' pregnant. She had no business being there. They ought to appoint a guardian ad litem for her dead baby and sue her. Complete bumbling idiot.
'Course maybe this is the latest "slip-and-fall scam."
you're right, maggie. we should all be wary of the police knocking us down, or beating us, or assaulting us with pepper spray for no legitimate reason. it's on the people, not the authorities, they are only doing their jobs.
who know if what she says it legit, but why do we condemn the police in other countries for their treatment of protestors but absolve our own police?
Nevermind the responsibility of the police to refrain from beating pregnant women.
She's apparently a homeless pregnant women. I would say the welfare of her baby depends a lot upon the priorities of politics.
A mother's #1 priority is protect her child. The first step for this woman to do that, was to stay away from the protest.
I feel bad for the child, but have zero sympathy for her.
And, while we're on the subject, why are the Libbos outraged? It was just a fetus and a fetus isn't a person. Right?
In regards to the pepper spray, I can't say. I'd need to see the warning label and training given to police officers with regards to it. I wouldn't think, if not told, that Pepper Spray = Likely to miscarriage. The two things wouldn't even enter my mind as a likely potential side effect. I would absolutely not consider that lethal force.
In regards to the police batons to the stomach. Absolutely, if its found they were aware she was prengant I would agree with that notion. However, you're also requiring that people 1) take her story as the full truth and 2) that in the midst of a large, unruly crowd where there's significant chaos that the cops in question could identify that it was her that had yelled it.
If you fire guns into a crowd of people its a reasonalbe expectation that someone could die.
To a point, I agree. However, I think as in most cases with cops, its a balance of safety of both the people in question and the cops themselves and the reasonable expectations on both sides. If you hear "I'm pregnant" shouted from some random person you can't identify in the midst of an unruly mob of 100 people, I think there's a reasonable expectation that a police officer should attempt to be aware if it becomes obvious who said pregnant person is an respond accordingly but not to put themselves or their duty at risk by forgoing just about any activity towards any person of said group that may have the slightest chance of causing a miscarriage.
Heck, unless there's something about pepper spray I don't know about that specifically can harm pregnancy, stating that pepper spray is "lethal force" for being used on a pregnant woman than touching somoene briskly could be considered that as well since that could cause them to stumble and fall in a crowd which could cause a miscarriage....so by your logic it would seem that if a crowd of people has one person yell "I'm pregnant" the only reasonable stance for a prolifer would be for a cop to just stand still and not jostle anyone or else it could potentially be lethal force.
Issues with consistant logic 4 or 5 steps down the line is significantly different to me than being a "hypocrite" .
so a woman shouldn't drive while pregnant? she has more of a chance of losing her baby in a car accident than at a protest in the u.s.
so a woman shouldn't drive while pregnant? she has more of a chance of losing her baby in a car accident than at a protest in the u.s.
so a woman shouldn't drive while pregnant? she has more of a chance of losing her baby in a car accident than at a protest in the u.s.
It's sad that she lost her baby. But I am not going to immediately blame any police for it without more information and a medical report, especially since she is homeless and living outside in Seattle (which is sad in itself).
The protesters were blocking traffic and given warning that pepper spray was going to be used. She must have been in the group at the intersection of 5th Ave and Pine St refusing to move in order to have been sprayed.
If she was really kicked by a police officer, then that cop should be investigated for using too much force (providing she wasn't doing anything violent against the cop). However, it is not reasonable to assume that the cop should have really had any reason to believe the woman was pregnant since she was only 3 months along and not exactly showing and it was most likely very loud there. Unless an investigation revealed a cop did kick her in the stomach knowing she was pregnant because he heard her or reasonably should have heard her, there is no way that he should be charged with the death of the fetus. Same thing for the cop on the bike, and he was even less likely to cause a miscarriage. Unless she was run over by the bike, which wouldn't fit with her story of being sprayed by both cops immediately after.
I have a lot of doubt about the validity of her claim. Her being a part of the Occupy Seattle movement and having specifically been a part of that particular incident very likely could have played a major part in the miscarriage due to the stress of it. But I highly doubt the OC spray itself caused her to miscarry in away. Being sprayed may have led to stress causing the miscarriage, but I don't think it could have been the spray itself. It had to be cold outside and the baby was still fine until almost a week after the incident. Seems a little weird that either kicked or especially shot with pepper spray would cause a person to miscarry a week later. Stress from the situation she is in, yes, but I can't see the other things being directly responsible. Maybe her medical records and possibly some footage of the cop kicking her or perhaps the bruise he left.
If she chose to drive in a demolition derby, she's an idiot.
If she chose to bungey jump, she's an idiot,
If she chose to put herself into any potentially dangerous situation, she's an idiot.
It's always gotta be somebody else's fault. Personal accountability? He died twenty years ago.
General comment: Liberals always seem to find someone else to blame. Big-Bad_______ (insert group that applies). Whatever happened to responsibility? He died, too.
The bodily stress caused by being pepper sprayed is such that it cold trigger a miscarriage, not to mention some potential links between large doses of capsaicin and miscarriage.
One common wive's tale told to women in later pregnancy is that they should eat spicy food to induce labor. Like many wive's tales, this one may have a grain of truth to it. My wives ObGyn even recommended it when she was a week late.
How unfortunate. If this is true the cop should be charged heavily. However, if she was violating laws she should also be charged.
In many cases, Maggie, I agree with you. In this one, I do not. The reason is that while a pregnant person should avoid dangerous situations, a protest being dangerous is not as predictable as sky diving. In cases where there is a legitimate unknown, its not this lady's fault.
The article does not say she was hit with a baton...does not say she was kicked in the stomach...all assumptions based on cry-babies' notions that police brutality is at the root of every incident OWS is involved in. Protesting involves some risk. If ya' can't stand the heat, get outa' the freakin' kitchen.
In many cases, Maggie, I agree with you. In this one, I do not. The reason is that while a pregnant person should avoid dangerous situations, a protest being dangerous is not as predictable as sky diving. In cases where there is a legitimate unknown, its not this lady's fault.
I didn't say anything about her being hit with a baton (not that I can remember or find anyway). If I did, it was definitely a mistake.
She claims she was kicked in the stomach and hit with a bike by two different police officers. I am basing what I said off of that. If she was kicked in the stomach by a police officer without actually doing anything but blocking traffic, I'd call that excessive force. The bike incident, if it happened at all, was almost certainly an accident. I doubt a cop would purposely hit someone with a bike without knocking them down.
That being said, I doubt her claims are very close to the true story. Very little evidence exists that cops hit, kicked, or ran into her at all yet. And I doubt very much that being sprayed with pepper spray is likely to cause a miscarriage a week later. Possible? Sure. What is more likely is the stress of being sprayed and what led to getting sprayed actually being the cause, not the chemicals in the spray. And if it was the stress from that, then it is her fault for putting herself in that position. If it was from getting kicked by the cop, there's proof of this (unlikely though, since most miscarriages are hard to identify a specific cause, especially a week after an incident) and proof is found that he kicked her without provocation, then it is his fault. Without a lot of evidence to support her story and that the cop heard her say she was pregnant, I wouldn't agree with charging him for fetal homicide or anything like that.
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