Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:25]

[Chagos]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

I stated pretty clearly what I thought. It's nice for the Pope to say that for the rigid believers that need to be told what to think and believe. In the long run, he seems better than most....and forgiveness is a principle on which the Bible and God's Word is founded.

But he is still just a man. Not God.

Fair enough.

Even where within Catholic doctrine he's infallible.

 

[Cryptic]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

Fair enough.

Even where within Catholic doctrine he's infallible.

No, he is not inherently infallible. Rather, he is held to have the ability to be infallible on under certain circumstances.

A Pope is only infallible when clarifying a teaching about Catholic doctrine and if he is directly invoking the "infallible" concept, and if he is speaking for the whole church. In the last 2,000 years, there appear to have been about seven such written statements.

 

[Paleocon]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

Pretty much this.

Whatever their policy is on the church forgiving and welcoming those who kill born human beings in needless aggression, that should be their same policy for those who kill unborn human beings.

The morality of the act is no different. And regardless of whether some priest forgives you, the state should still lock your ass up.

The penalties for abortion are actually more severe. Abortion results in excommunication, whereas killing a born person doesn't unless it's the Pope.

And yes, if society were decent, these people would be locked up or executed.

 

[Chagos]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

No, he is not inherently infallible. Rather, he is held to have the ability to be infallible on under certain circumstances. A Pope is only infallible when clarifying a teaching about Catholic doctrine and if he is directly invoking the "infallible" concept, and if he is speaking for the whole church. In the last 2,000 years, there appear to have been about seven such written statements.

So when he allows his priests to forgive (absolve), who is he speaking for if not the church?

 

[Paleocon]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

No, he is not inherently infallible. Rather, he is held to have the ability to be infallible on under certain circumstances. A Pope is only infallible when clarifying a teaching about Catholic doctrine and if he is directly invoking the "infallible" concept, and if he is speaking for the whole church. In the last 2,000 years, there appear to have been about seven such written statements.

To avoid confusion, it should be noted that the solemn decrees if ecumenical councils, are also infallible when confirmed by the Pope. And the universal teachings of the Church are infallible regardless of whether or not there is a specific infallible statement.

 

[Paleocon]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

So when he allows his priests to forgive (absolve), who is he speaking for if not the church?

That is a legal decision, not a doctrinal one.

Understanding such things is helpful if one wants to go spouting off.

 

[Chagos]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

That is a legal decision, not a doctrinal one.

Understanding such things is helpful if one wants to go spouting off.

This doesn't answer my question.

Your silly ad hominem I won't dignify with address.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

Pope Francis alters rules on Catholics and abortions - CNN.com


The pro-abortion folks have a religious advocate now.

About time, don't ya think? :applaud GO FRANCIS GO!

"Pro-abortion" is pretty much a mythical term. It's often used by folks who, for whatever reason, can't logically think through the implications and arrive at it's true meaning. There's a hell of a lot of pro-choice women who wouldn't have an abortion (unless under dire circumstances), but see the legal and logical necessity. They also don't want government telling citizens how many children they have to have based on either religious dogma or penis power over uteruses (no pun intended).

 

[Paleocon]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

This doesn't answer my question.

Your silly ad hominem I won't dignify with address.

Your question is based on false pretenses. "X may do Y during Z time" cannot be infallible because it's not a truth claim.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

Do they forgive murderers?

Yes, they do...

Now back to abortion...which happens to NOT be murder... :roll:

 

[Cryptic]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

So when he allows his priests to forgive (absolve), who is he speaking for if not the church?

The third prong is missing (Pope must declare that this is an infallible action). I think it is also important to note that the modification is only for the period of the Jubilee Year (when it is customary to make mercy dispensations).

To avoid confusion, it should be noted that the solemn decrees if ecumenical councils, are also infallible when confirmed by the Pope. And the universal teachings of the Church are infallible regardless of whether or not there is a specific infallible statement.

Even counting solemn decrees, I bet the total number of uses of the infallibility concept are about 15 in 2000 years. Your last point is interesting as it implies that the Pope cannot use the infallibility concept to over ride church doctrine as it is also infallible.

 

[ChezC3]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

Pope Francis alters rules on Catholics and abortions - CNN.com


The pro-abortion folks have a religious advocate now.

I don't think that is the case.

I know personally a woman whose had an abortion and it eats her up. In the Year of Mercy does it not make sense to show mercy? It doesn't change the teaching. Doesn't change the consequence. If a person isn't truly repentant (which would include no longer supporting that abomination) than there is no absolution.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

I'm surprised.

Where's the outrage from the pro-abortion crowd?

Where are the women's rights advocates blasting this paternalistic announcement?

This doesn't make the Pope an advocate of abortion since he clearly states women and those who help them get abortions have to confess their sin - abortion is a sin - and they won't be excommunicated if they confess that sin and seek forgiveness.

I'd think all the "a woman's body is her own" advocates would be appalled that you have to confess your sin. Instead, some here use the Pope to bash the religious without even understanding the impact of his position.

John...

Can you name any "Pro-Abortion advocates" in DP?

Pro-Abortion is a bull**** mythical term "for the most part" and you are well aware of it. And if your not - that makes me seriously concerned about who you're getting your information from.

You're much smarter than that to fall for such an inflammatory term. You know that for all practical purposes - ITS A LIE.

Again, most pro-choice women wouldn't have an abortion unless there were dire circumstances. They realize there are medical, legal and CONSTITUTIONAL necessities. And they don't want government OR RELIGIONS telling them what size family they must have.

Call this move by Francis what you will. But it's a huge step in the right direction. GO FRANCIS GO!

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

your question is based on false pretenses. "x may do y during z time" cannot be infallible because it's not a truth claim.

Yeaaaaaaaaa Francis! Go Francis Go!

 

[Henrin]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

Yes, they do...

Now back to abortion...which happens to NOT be murder... :roll:

Do you happen to have a link to support that statement? I normally wouldn't ask, but I can't find anything on the topic one way or the other.

 

[Chagos]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

Your question is based on false pretenses. "X may do Y during Z time" cannot be infallible because it's not a truth claim.

What am I to do with this gibberish?

I asked who the Pope speaks for in the current instance that is topic of this thread.

If your main drive for responding is to go off tangent, tell it to your hairdresser.

 

[Chagos]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

The third prong is missing (Pope must declare that this is an infallible action). I think it is also important to note that the modification is only for the period of the Jubilee Year (when it is customary to make mercy dispensations).

Thank you.

At least somebody is capable of answering coherently.

So he speaks for the church but with the caveats outlined?

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

Do you happen to have a link to support that statement? I normally wouldn't ask, but I can't find anything on the topic one way or the other.

Sure. And note the bottom of the pic posted. ARTICLE 10: I BELIEVE IN THE FORGIVENESS OF SIN. Welp, were I grew up - murdering someone was a sin. But no biggie for the Catholic Church. Just repent, confess, and all is good. So shouldn't it be the same with abortion?

Catechism of the Catholic Church - I believe in the forgiveness of sins

 

[Cryptic]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

Thank you.

At least somebody is capable of answering coherently.

So he speaks for the church but with the caveats outlined?

Yes, that is my understanding of it. A pope is infallible if:
A. He is speaking for the church and
B. He is addressing a matter of church teaching and
C. He invokes the infallibility concept.

A Pope can speak for the church, but can also choose not to invoke the infallibility concept. Francis is doing that here. In addition, as he is not addressing a matter of church teaching on abortion (it is more like an administrative practice), the second prong for infallibility is missing as well.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

That is a legal decision, not a doctrinal one.

Understanding such things is helpful if one wants to go spouting off.

What the hell are you implying that people don't understand? Oh, and people can "spout off", at will, anytime they wish". That's what DP is all about.

Religious membership is 100% voluntary. Adopting a given religion's dogma is also 100% voluntary. Following or not following a religion's teachings is 100% voluntary. None of these voluntary actions carry any legal consequences if a person chooses to end their membership or not fully give themselves to their religion's teachings.

Shooting some in the face and murdering them - has serious consequences. Abortion is LEGAL within the boundaries set by law. And it can be procured at will, without question or consequences - if it is performed within the boundaries of the law. And whether the Pope likes it or not.

Either way...the Catholic Church has a process for people to be forgiven for their sins...regardless of what the are. That includes murder and abortion. Go in the booth, repent, fess up, say a few hail Mary's...and slam bam...clean as a bar of soap.

 

[Gathomas88]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

Pope Francis alters rules on Catholics and abortions - CNN.com


The pro-abortion folks have a religious advocate now.

Not really. Repentance is nothing new. All he's really doing is lifting a bureaucratic obstruction which was largely unenforceable to begin with, as most women don't go around announcing to the world when they've had abortions.

The impetus is still ultimately on them to seek forgiveness for their grievous sin. If they fail to do so, God will be the ultimate arbiter over the matter in one way or another. :shrug:

 

[Henrin]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

Sure. And note the bottom of the pic posted. ARTICLE 10: I BELIEVE IN THE FORGIVENESS OF SIN. Welp, were I grew up - murdering someone was a sin. But no biggie for the Catholic Church. Just repent, confess, and all is good. So shouldn't it be the same with abortion?

Catechism of the Catholic Church - I believe in the forgiveness of sins

View attachment 67189313

But that doesn't directly answer the question. Abortion wasn't forgiven by the church and yet it is a sin, so it would seem as if they don't just forgive all sins.

 

[VanceMack]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

Someone pointed out in DP that the religious right would hate Jesus if they stumbled upon him in real life: drifter, preaching forgiveness and giving money to the poor.

I believe that was also in the same thread where it was pointed out that he would have been vilified by the left because along with the 'forgiveness' aspect, he never conveniently ignored the 'sin no more' part or that he would draw the distinction between the incapable and the slothful.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

But that doesn't directly answer the question. Abortion wasn't forgiven by the church and yet it is a sin, so it would seem as if they don't just forgive all sins.

Sure it does, Henrin...you just choose to ignore the small print. You know, the part about hypocrisy by the Church...and how it can pick and choose which sin to forgive on any given day. It works sort of like the Supreme Court.

 

[calamity]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

I believe that was also in the same thread where it was pointed out that he would have been vilified by the left because along with the 'forgiveness' aspect, he never conveniently ignored the 'sin no more' part or that he would draw the distinction between the incapable and the slothful.

But, at least most of those on the Left pretty much know that Jesus is Bull****.