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Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:25]

Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

Gathomas88 said:
Not really. Repentance is nothing new. All he's really doing is lifting a bureaucratic obstacle which was largely unenforceable to begin with, as most women don't go around announcing to the world when they've had abortions.

The impetus is still ultimately on them to seek forgiveness for their grievous sin. If they fail to do so, God will be the ultimate arbiter over the matter in one way or another. :shrug:
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If you believe in god...maybe. Or maybe not - even if god exists.
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

calamity said:
But, at least most of those on the Left pretty much know that Jesus is Bull****.
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:lamo

I knew it wouldnt take much to push you off the reverence for Pope Francis position. All it took was pointing out the reality. Really...you are no different than most of the convenient cheerleaders. Religion is an asset...when it can be used as a weapon.
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

Cryptic said:
Yes, that is my understanding of it. A pope is infallible if:
A. He is speaking for the church and
B. He is addressing a matter of church teaching and
C. He invokes the infallibility concept.

A Pope can speak for the church, but can also choose not to invoke the infallibility concept. Francis is doing that here. In addition, as he is not addressing a matter of church teaching on abortion (it is more like an administrative practice), the second prong for infallibility is missing as well.
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Thanks again.
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

Removable Mind said:
If you believe in god...maybe. Or maybe not - even if god exists.
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That will be for God to decide.

Quite frankly, if a person doesn't believe in him but wants to remain Catholic either way regardless, they've got bigger problems than abortion anyway.
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

Gathomas88 said:
That will be for God to decide.

Quite frankly, if a person doesn't believe in him but wants to remain Catholic either way regardless, they've got bigger problems than abortion anyway.
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If there is a god...
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

VanceMack said:
:lamo

I knew it wouldnt take much to push you off the reverence for Pope Francis position. All it took was pointing out the reality. Really...you are no different than most of the convenient cheerleaders. Religion is an asset...when it can be used as a weapon.
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Uh, when people cry "Jesus this and Jesus that," they maybe should know what the hell he was really supposed to be about. I find it ironic that those who believe he is their savior would probably kick him in the teeth if he showed up at their doorstep.
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

calamity said:
Uh, when people cry "Jesus this and Jesus that," they maybe should know what the hell he was really supposed to be about. I find it ironic that those who believe he is their savior would probably kick him in the teeth if he showed up at their doorstep.
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I would agree...many are imperfect. But I also know people like you dont give half a **** about any of it (are in fact very much anti-religious), that you yourself are as judgmental as anyone you claim to despise, and the only reason you ever comment on anything religious is to further some form of anti-religious ideology.
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

Removable Mind said:
If there is a god...
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This whole conversation sort of revolves around the predicate that one believes in God, and that one wishes to be a Catholic, does it not?

If you're an apostate or a heretic than this injunction on automatic excommunication for abortion doesn't really do you any good at all, nor would it really matter to you overmuch.
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

Paleocon said:
The penalties for abortion are actually more severe. Abortion results in excommunication, whereas killing a born person doesn't unless it's the Pope.
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Neither does child molestation, another reason the RCC has zero credibility.
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

Henrin said:
Do you happen to have a link to support that statement? I normally wouldn't ask, but I can't find anything on the topic one way or the other.
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Murder is the illegal taking of a person's life. Abortion is 1) Legal 2) not of a person (since personhood begins at birth).
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

soot said:
This whole conversation sort of revolves around the predicate that one believes in God, and that one wishes to be a Catholic, does it not?

If you're an apostate or a heretic than this injunction on automatic excommunication for abortion doesn't really do you any good at all, nor would it really matter to you overmuch.
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If those who claim god will decide in the end - are making that point to their fellow members - I'm cool with that. If they can keep it among themselves. But the reality is: THEY DON'T. And I'm not okay with that.
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

Removable Mind said:
If those who claim god will decide in the end - are making that point to their fellow members - I'm cool with that. If they can keep it among themselves. But the reality is: THEY DON'T. And I'm not okay with that.
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If you dont believe it why arent you OK with it? Do YOU feel free to deny there is a God to anyone that will listen (and those who wont as well)?
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

Removable Mind said:
If those who claim god will decide in the end - are making that point to their fellow members - I'm cool with that. If they can keep it among themselves. But the reality is: THEY DON'T. And I'm not okay with that.
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You're not okay with what?

People exercising freedom of speech and of religion?

Or something else?
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

Cryptic said:
The third prong is missing (Pope must declare that this is an infallible action). I think it is also important to note that the modification is only for the period of the Jubilee Year (when it is customary to make mercy dispensations).



Even counting solemn decrees, I bet the total number of uses of the infallibility concept are about 15 in 2000 years. Your last point is interesting as it implies that the Pope cannot use the infallibility concept to over ride church doctrine as it is also infallible.
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There have been twenty one ecumenical councils. All but one issued solemn decrees.

Of course universally taught doctrine cannot change. Keep in mind that only true things can be taught in infallible ways (otherwise those ways of teaching would not be infallible).
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

soot said:
You're not okay with what?

People exercising freedom of speech and of religion?

Or something else?
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I'm exercising my freedom of speech. My opinion. Nothing else.

But here's my rub. The Catholic Church has imposed its dogma on nations everywhere and in so many ways I can't count them. Abortion is just one example.

I don't subscribe to such the Catholic doctrine, teachings or dogma. I (nor anyone else who doesn't subscribe} should be impacted by their teachings or dogma via out government legislation. But obviously they constantly work very hard to intervene as though their religious beliefs need to be imposed on all.

I just got a reply from a poster who claims that religious folks are a protected class via our Constitution. Interesting. I'm not religious, but equally protected under the same provision. And they don't like that...so I guess were kind of equal in that respect.

Its my belief that people need to be a living example of their faith - as long as they don't use their faith to infringe on the rights of others. But reality tells us that's not what's happening.

Thanks
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

American said:
Pope Francis alters rules on Catholics and abortions - CNN.com

The pro-abortion folks have a religious advocate now.
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I really don't read it that way. Basically he's adopting the same model that all Protestants who are equally opposed to abortion already have.


I'm pretty solidly pro-life, but I get this shift. Abortion is murder, and murder is sin. And we are sinners. The Church is supposed to be God's family on earth, welcoming sinners into forgiveness and redemption if we repent.
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

Im sure this will make some people lose thier **** but in reality its meanignless

religion has ZERO impact in the discussion of legal abortion which is about laws and rights.
Im sure it effect people PERSONALLY on a subjective level but thats it, thats is thier topic for them doesnt matter to law and rights.
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

cpwill said:
I really don't read it that way. Basically he's adopting the same model that all Protestants who are equally opposed to abortion already have.


I'm pretty solidly pro-life, but I get this shift. Abortion is murder, and murder is sin. And we are sinners. The Church is supposed to be God's family on earth, welcoming sinners into forgiveness and redemption if we repent.
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The changes aren't even that substantial.

Bishops can already absolve abortion.

And you still have to go to a priest.

Allowing ordinary priests to do it (temporarily) is the only change. And most dioceses in America already allow ordinary priests to absolve abortion anyway.
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

Paleocon said:
The changes aren't even that substantial.

Bishops can already absolve abortion.

And you still have to go to a priest.

Allowing ordinary priests to do it (temporarily) is the only change. And most dioceses in America already allow ordinary priests to absolve abortion anyway.
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Huh. Now that I didn't know. Do they have to have the authority specifically devolved down onto them by the Bishop?

Or, did, I suppose, now that the Pope has devolved it down for everyone.
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

cpwill said:
Huh. Now that I didn't know. Do they have to have the authority specifically devolved down onto them by the Bishop?

Or, did, I suppose, now that the Pope has devolved it down for everyone.
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Yes. The bishop delegates his authority in the matter. I'm pretty sure they give the authority to all confessors.
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

Paleocon said:
The changes aren't even that substantial.

Bishops can already absolve abortion.

And you still have to go to a priest.

Allowing ordinary priests to do it (temporarily) is the only change. And most dioceses in America already allow ordinary priests to absolve abortion anyway.
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I did not know that in this religion, priests can absolve murder. What kind of religion is that???
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

He may be the pope, but he has a smarter head on his shoulders than the last 2 popes, a much smarter head. He not only a church leader but let's his heart and compassion speak volumes too.
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

Peter King said:
He may be the pope, but he has a smarter head on his shoulders than the last 2 popes, a much smarter head. He not only a church leader but let's his heart and compassion speak volumes too.
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is he head of a religion or a cult. Sounds more like a cult.
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions

washunut said:
is he head of a religion or a cult. Sounds more like a cult.
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It used to be slowly growing into a cult, but I think it is slowly turning back into a mainstream and respected religion (be it ever so slowly).
 
Re: Pope Francis, in major change, alters rules for Catholics who've had abortions[W:

washunut said:
I did not know that in this religion, priests can absolve murder. What kind of religion is that???
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Priests can absolve anything.

It's a forgiving religion.
 
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