I did.. was fascinating.. I did know about their kill record beforehand though, but not what happened to them..
as for one of the biggest betrayals.. yea but I rank a few higher personally. For example the people of Diego Garcia.
right, i was interested in possiblt talking about a particular people and incident. Seems this has opened a 'have a go at the uk'. I'll leave all interested to get on with it. That was not what I startred the thread for.
Did anyone see that program last night about the Polish Pilots who arguably made the difference that allowed us to win the Battle of Britain.
I know before I had seen Churchill on the History Channel arguing with the US President and being genuinely concerned about his insistence to give Poland to Stalin and Russia.
I could see we had done them wrong. I knew before Polish Pilots volunteered and went to Poland to drop food on missions which were almost suicidal but until last night I had not realised how much they had helped us in defending this Island.
I think it was one of the biggest betrayals I know of. Makes me feel quite ashamed.
It is just like any other wrong done. It needs to be recognised so, my little thread in recognition of them.
While all this was going on the people of Poland were starving. Brave Polish Pilots living in the UK volunteered to fly planes and drop food for them even though the likelihood of their return was negligible.
And of course there was that massacre of the Poles by the Russians originally blamed on the Germans.
I think of all the people of Europe possibly the Poles fought most for their country. I also think that because of our betrayal of them, their bravery has never been recognised. They flew their planes for Britain with amazing skill and with far more fearlessness than our own pilots. They loved their country and they wanted it back. Instead it was given to Stalin. The UK people told the Poles they were no longer wanted and they should go home. Most of the brave Poles who fought for Britain and possibly saved us in our darkest hour who returned to Poland later lost their lives under Stalin's regime.
All I had mainly heard was that France and the UK had a deal with Poland that if it were attacked we would go to it's aid and so war was declared when Gernany invaded Poland.
[...] the deal between the Russian and Germany to attack Poland at the same time and divide it between them.
And yet, all my life, whenever I've tried to bring the Poles' plight and their bravery to others' attention, to describe the horrors visited upon them, it's entirely dismissed. Or worse, derided.
She did, however, use my heritage against me many more times before I escaped her bigoted, hate-filled world.
Thank you for this thread.
My family lost many members to brutality and hatred during the Polish Genocide. My grandparents barely got out with their lives. The stories of family bravery and hardship are many, and I'm very proud of my Polish heritage.
A higher percentage of Poles died than
in any other country—21 percent, more if one counts fatalities caused by warrelated
diseases. Six million Polish citizens were killed. Of these, 3 million were
Jewish. Poland’s ancient Jewish community with a history stretching back to the
early Middle Ages, was virtually wiped out. The Nazis killed 2 million Polish
Christians, the Soviets perhaps between half a million and a million, and perhaps
100,000 by Ukrainian nationalists. The city of Warsaw alone lost more people than
Britain and the U.S.A. put together. Polish military losses were equally appalling—
an estimated 360,000 died in battle, of wounds, or as prisoners of war, a number
greater than any European country save the USSR and Germany. In addition, a
great number of Poles were scattered to all parts of the world. Poland’s pre-war
population of 35 million dropped to 23 million in 1945.
And yet, all my life, whenever I've tried to bring the Poles' plight and their bravery to others' attention, to describe the horrors visited upon them, it's entirely dismissed. Or worse, derided.
I'll never forget the day my sixth-grade teacher went around the classroom, asking each student to tell about their family heritage. When it was my turn, I stood up proudly to tell my family history, but I'd barely finished my first sentence stating my Polish roots when the teacher began laughing.
"You're a dumb POLACK?!@? HAA HAAHAH! I always knew there was something wrong with you!" *
Of course, the other students began laughing as well - not because their minds had been poisoned to equate "Polack" with "stupid/dumb," but because the teacher's mind had, and an adult... a TEACHER would never say anything that wasn't true, right?
I walked out of class that day. Never told my parents how I'd been so gleefully humiliated in front of my schoolmates, and the teacher never apologized. She did, however, use my heritage against me many more times before I escaped her bigoted, hate-filled world.
As an adult, among adults, I am ashamed that the ignorance and blind prejudice against Poles continues unabated. And I thank you again, for bringing the injustices my people did suffer, and continue to suffer, to light.
* As it was, I was the brightest kid in the class. Finished every assignment long before, and better than, all the others did. As my reward, the teacher separated me from the others and assigned additional work that went against my grade if I didn't complete it all to her satisfaction. Oh yeah, she was a gem of a teacher. I've always wondered how many of those kids carried that teacher's ugly bigotry with them into adulthood.
Six million Polish citizens were killed. Of these, 3 million were Jewish. Poland’s ancient Jewish community with a history stretching back to the early Middle Ages, was virtually wiped out. The Nazis killed 2 million Polish Christians, the Soviets perhaps between half a million and a million, and perhaps 100,000 by Ukrainian nationalists. The city of Warsaw alone lost more people than Britain and the U.S.A. put together. Polish military losses were equally appalling— an estimated 360,000 died in battle, of wounds, or as prisoners of war, a number greater than any European country save the USSR and Germany. In addition, a great number of Poles were scattered to all parts of the world. Poland’s pre-war population of 35 million dropped to 23 million in 1945.
It amazes me that almost NOBODY gets this right. We always hear "Six million Jews were wiped out!" when Jews made up only about half of the victims of the genocide. So many others suffered the same fate as the Jews, and those victims are all but forgotten and/or ignored.
But again, every time I mention this, I'm told I don't have a clue and am a "Jew hater," to boot.
History is written by victors - and in case of WWII the Polish lost.
Shortly after regaining our independence we, yet again, found ourselves under Russian rule. Poland did not become a socialist country through free elections - everything was rigged and the socialist politicians were quite open about it at the time. 50 years of socialism (no, it was not communism although it is usually referred to as such by the mass media) has done terrible things to the Polish mentality and sense of identity. For 50 years we were taught that we were somehow worse, inferior to the people who lived in the western world.
We were almost locked up in our own country - migration was strictly controlled and if anyone managed to leave the country they were sometimes forced to become a secret informant for the state. This feeling still runs deep and affects anyone, who was born during the socialist rule. It seems however that there is a glimmer of hope in the new generations, who are again starting to feel a sense of identity and realize they are no different to the French or Germans of their age.
One thing makes me proud though - we managed to keep our limited independence after the war. even though we did not 'rule' our own country, we still had our own borders, our own flag, own language and a natonal anthem. The likes of Ukraine, Lithuania or Latvia weren't so lucky and were incorporated into the USSR, thus losing their national identity for 50 years. It is often said that Stalin realised he would not be able to annex Poland and that he realized he could not break the Polish spirit. In the end, the Russians have tried it for a 150 years before (partitioning) and never succeeded. They even tried an invasion shortly after the I WW (under bolshevik rule) and failed miserably (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Warsaw_(1920). It is said that the Battle of Warsaw was one of the most important battles in the history of mankind as it stopped the bolsheviks from joining with the German socialists - an event that would probably lead to a worldwide 'red' revolution.
We never knew about Ribbentrop - Molotov during the socialist rule. Same with the Katyn massacre - Germans were always blamed. It wasn't until the transformation (1989) that we learnt the truth.
and with a little help they might well have made it, but the Russians would not advance and possibly more importantly they would not let the US and UK drop food and ammunition to give Poland a chance.
as possibly the Russians are, glorifying Stalin and rewriting the history books about him again
That would have sorted him. :mrgreen:Funny story associated with this event actually. Shortly after overthrowing socialist rule, celebrations of the Warsaw Uprising were set up by the democratic government. Most of the leaders from European countries were invited, including the German chancellor. There was a bit of an issue with inviting the Russian leader (Yeltsin) - some people felt it was not appropriate to invite a representative of a nation that, during the uprising, stood only a few miles away and watched the resistance fighters bleed to death. After a great debate, someone humorously pointed out that Yeltsin should be invited, given binoculars and told to watch the celebrations from the other bank of Vistula.
I've met a couple of Russians in my life and was shocked to find out they had no idea whatsoever what Stalin did to their country. They did not know about the great hunger in Ukraine (engineered by Stalin as punishment), about starving Russians, while all of industry was focusing on feeding the armies, about Ribbentrop - Molotov, the war with Finland or the incorporation on Lithuania, Lativia and Estonia or Katyn. These things are not taught in Russian schools.
That's not to denigrate or minimalise the tragedy of the Jewish holocaust (they were singled out for special hatred after all), but I'm at the point of bemusement and mild annoyance when someone says 'I didn't know you were Jewish' when I mention my Polish background!
On the war programmes it's been all Jewish this and Jewish that as if there was nobody else
though finally more varied examinations of other people involved have been broadcast, which is very welcome.
And I shouldn't let the incident with your teachers get to you. They tend to be more ignorant than the kids they teach!
PS - You wouldn't happen to have a copy of Katarzyna Gaertner's Msza Beatowa record that you wouldn't mind selling? I'm after a copy and couldn't find a single one in the whole of Warsaw! (Found the cover but that's no good.)
I did notice that many of their women had lovely arses.
I'll settle for that
Holocaust: Non-Jewish Victims
Newsletter: Volume 1, Issue 1 F
Five Million Often Forgotten
The Holocaust is usually taught as the mass genocide of almost six million Jews in Europe during World War II. But, more than five million others were also persecuted, tortured, tattooed and killed. These five million included innocent citizens - men women and children. The survivors and the families of these five million often feel left out -- overshadowed by the Jewish casualties. Nonetheless, these people need to be recognized and memorialized. Many of these died for their race or their beliefs. Many of these died while helping their Jewish neighbors. They too deserve their place in history.
POLAND - Hitler's First Target
"All Polish people will disappear from the world….It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles." H. Himmler
Hitler's first target was Poland, an agricultural country with little military power and Germany's closest neighbor to the east. Hitler invaded Poland from three directions on September 1, 1939. In just over one month, Poland was forced to surrender -- unable to defend itself against the powerful German prowess. Hitler saw Poland as a rich agricultural land populated mostly by modest but strong and healthy farmers. Hitler quickly took control of Poland by specifically wiping the Polish leading class -- the Intelligentsia.
During the next few years, millions of other Polish citizens were rounded up and placed in slave labor for German farmers and factories or taken to concentration camps where many were starved and worked to death or used for scientific experiments. The Jews in Poland were forced inside ghettos, but the non-Jews were made prisoners inside their own country. No one was allowed to leave the country. The Germans took over the ranches, farms and factories. Most healthy citizens were forced into slave labor. Polish men were drafted into the German army. Blond children were "Germanized" and trained from an early age to be Nazi supporters - many taken from their parents to be raised by German families.
Of the 11 million people killed during the Holocaust, six million were Polish citizens. Three million were Polish Jews and another three million were Polish Catholics.
Have I not heard you saying that your great grand parents died saving Jewish people? Yes, an enormous amount of Polish people died both Jews and Christian.
However, it is clear the Polish people were stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. Russia on one side attacking and responsible for around one and a half million deaths and Germany on the other.
And Polish people were very brave and fought back, both at the beginning of the war as best they could and throughout.
The German occupying forces made concealing Jews a crime punishable by death for every Pole living in a house where Jews were discovered. Over 700 Polish heroes, murdered by Germans as a result of helping and sheltering their Jewish neighbors, were posthumously awarded the title Righteous Among the Nations. They were only a small percentage of thousands of Poles reportedly executed by the Nazis for aiding Jews.
According to differing research "the number of Poles who perished at the hands of the Germans for aiding Jews" was as high as fifty thousand. Nonetheless, Władysław Bartoszewski, who worked for Żegota during the war estimates that "at least several hundred thousand Poles... participated in various ways and forms in the rescue action [for Jews]."
Recent research suggests that a million Poles were involved in giving aid, "but some estimates go as high as three million" of those passively protective. More specific estimates indicate that some 100,000 (of those who meet Yad Vashem’s criteria) to 300,000 Poles were directly engaged in rescuing Jews even though the threat of death did act as a deterrent.
I think we cannot minimise the German attempt to exterminate all Jews. However I would also agree that possibly it still has not been acknowledged just how closely Hitler saw the Poles to the Jews and from historical differences just how interested both Russian and Germany had to see the end of Poland and also just how prepared Poles were to fight and how many of them were lost.
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