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Planned Parenthood is evil[W:1642]

I'm only applying it to myself and what it mean to me.



Yes.



So what, it would be like she loves me, but cared nothing for my sibling? That doesn't seem real to me. It's pretty clear to me that it would all be selfishness if that was the case.

I am not sure how old you are, but all those decades out the door because as an adult you found out that she had an abortion many years ago.

My world just is not that black or white.
 
I am not sure how old you are, but all those decades out the door because as an adult you found out that she had an abortion many years ago.

My world just is not that black or white.

My daughters thirteenth birthday was last week. She was born when I was eighteen. Do the math and you will have my age. :)

It's not really black and white though. It's just a conclusion I reached after considering what it means towards how she approached her pregnancies and thus her children.
 
No, they were always part of humanity. The fact that they didn't survive means nothing towards that.



Why do you think that for some reason your awareness of their existence matters? If we never talked on this forum I would have no idea you existed and you would have no idea I existed. What is different about the situation if one of us lived far away from everyone and no one alive new we existed? Would that mean that somehow we wouldn't be part of humanity?

As I said...and you ignored even when you quoted it:

Lursa said:
Unlike any born child whom there is a record of...even if hidden away...that child has been born and become a part of humanity. The rest of humanity can act on it and it can act on humanity.

How do you know it's part of humanity when you arent even aware of it? Humanity is a collective....one must join it at some point. Like birth.
 
There is no science that denies person-hood to the unborn child. It is not possible. The question is a spiritual one. Science can't answer it, any more than it can show proof of God.

So forcing your 'belief' on women that dont believe the same is a non-starter then, wouldnt you say? In America anyway?
 
Minnie, I hope you can step back a bit and look at your reasoning from a somewhat disinterested point of view. You may be too close to this emotionally to see the facts.

Your designations of the unborn child are only scientific (man made) descriptions of a stage of human development. We assign values to these stages based on subjective reasoning.
Does not a one year old use a woman's life force for sustenance? The life force rationality in itself offers your argument no support. Only coupling it with the subjective values you have placed on the unborn child give it any weight.

Potential is having all of the necessary elements.
When the necessary elements are place together in the right conditions you have a process. This is scientific fact. It is repeatable, observable. It does not mean it will always end with a successful outcome, but there will be an outcome to the process one way or the other. With the elements sitting idle there is no expected outcome.

I am sorry for you loss. You did give birth to a person. He/She is with the Lord now. That is the outcome.
15 to 20% chance of loss. That is an 80% chance of survival!

Er, no, potential may or may not *have* all the elements....we dont know that until after birth. And the word potential by definition means "MAYBE"...not definite. As in *it may NEVER be.* Anything can happen, that's why it's potential, not realized.

And again, since not everyone believes as you do...in this country we base laws on medical opinion, rights as set forth in the Constitution, the science that you dismiss, etc.
 
That is not how I see it at all. From my position if I found out my mother aborted one of my siblings I would not feel the same about her after I found out that piece of information and I would doubt highly just how much she really cared for me or if I was just born because it was just in her own self interest.

So that knowlege would negate everything she's done for you over the years? Esp with the realization that it might have meant the rest of you ended up homeless because it would have cost her to lose her job? It's an imaginary scenario but all you 'imagine' is one act in it...not all the consequences. You would define her entire life by one act of *survival* which it often is for women.

Wow, your judgement cup runneth over. That is the most I can say within the forum rules.
 
Forget it. You guys always want to throw God under the bus. Well, the vast majority of Americans understand there is a God, and that his moral laws are the arbiter of truth on these issues. And the fact is God is instrumental in creating life in a mother's womb (Psalm 139:13; Jeremiah 1:5, etc.).

So, you have no clue who that is in the womb or what God's plan is for that baby. So don't kill it.

What country are you living in? It says the US but that cant be true. Iran maybe?
 
I've always wondered how it would affect someone to find out their mother aborted their sibling. Think of it, you weren't aborted because essentially she just didn't decide to kill you. She had it in her to kill you, but she just decided it was in her own interest to not. That would mean that essentially your worthless to her as a human being, and instead you are thought of as something she could benefit from and nothing more. That is a pretty ****ed up realization to have.

Well, I can tell you how I felt in a slightly different context.

I am aware my parents had the discussion about abortion when I was conceived. My dad was the one who was doubtful -- for all the right reasons -- that this was a situation to bring a child into. My mother was the one -- as is her absolute right -- who vetoed his opinion.

How do I feel about it?

In the context of everything else -- that my mother is not a well woman, that my father raised me alone by choice, and in fact by force of will, and that my father is still giving himself into oblivion even now -- I am astonished at how tightly he holds to his ethics no matter what the cost in even the worst situations.

I don't feel any way in particular about their abortion discussion; I had no right to be there, and I as a person didn't exist. I would be none the wiser if that embryo had been aborted. What difference does it make to me?

To be honest, my father's position makes far more sense than my mother's to me personally. I completely see his point. I even think he was right. My mother's decision was ideological, and that's fine; I am happy I was conceived at a point when she actually had a choice.

It was, in fact, my father who told me this. He told me when I was a teenager having a hard time understanding why my mother is the way she is, and he was trying to get me to have more compassion for her (which I do now have, although it has nothing to do with this). He essentially threw himself under the bus by admitting she was the one who wanted to go ahead with it, not him. It was more important to him that I think better of her than the risk that I might think less of him (which I don't -- I actually think more of him).

But that didn't stop my father from loving me with an intensity that is, by his actions, completely beyond any debate.

Someone else might feel differently. And that's the thing. How someone would feel about knowing their parents aborted, or talked about aborting, is as individual as womens' feelings about being pregnant in the first place, and as individual as people's feelings about being alive.
 
So that knowlege would negate everything she's done for you over the years? Esp with the realization that it might have meant the rest of you ended up homeless because it would have cost her to lose her job? It's an imaginary scenario but all you 'imagine' is one act in it...not all the consequences. You would define her entire life by one act of *survival* which it often is for women.

Wow, your judgement cup runneth over. That is the most I can say within the forum rules.

Someone might murder(I'm not calling abortion murder) someone when they are twenty and spend the rest of their lives in prison. People get arrested and imprisoned for robbery all the time and can spend up to fifteen years in prison for it. People lose friends they had since they were in grade school every single day for something they did. Parents get disowned for something they did to their child years earlier all the time. The fact is people get judged for one single act all the time. Reasons for doing it matter, and it would be different if her life depended on it or if the child was just not going to live, but otherwise, it really wouldn't matter to me.
 
My daughters thirteenth birthday was last week. She was born when I was eighteen. Do the math and you will have my age. :)

It's not really black and white though. It's just a conclusion I reached after considering what it means towards how she approached her pregnancies and thus her children.

Of course it is.

You are willing to discount her years of love for something she may have done 30 years ago in a desperate situation.

How much more black and white does it need to be??
 
Someone might murder(I'm not calling abortion murder) someone when they are twenty and spend the rest of their lives in prison. People get arrested and imprisoned for robbery all the time and can spend up to fifteen years in prison for it. People lose friends they had since they were in grade school every single day for something they did. Parents get disowned for something they did to their child years earlier all the time. The fact is people get judged for one single act all the time. Reasons for doing it matter, and it would be different if her life depended on it or if the child was just not going to live, but otherwise, it really wouldn't matter to me.

No more explanation is needed...you are the one living with those feelings. People make terrible choices about loved ones all the time...like you said...and the regrets and loss are theirs to own as well.
 
Many times that can be the crux of the issue, although they also claim it is due to the rights of the fetus (a claim that I know is regularly disputed, including in these parts).



It shouldn't come up, but it does. That's why there has been some push back particularly from women with disabilities who find their pro-choice views to nevertheless include controversy because of their beliefs about the rights and prospects of the disabled.



Forced is absolutely an "icky" qualifier, lacking the financial capacity is another serious qualifier, the emotional issue surrounding adoption is as well (though I did find the child abuse example interesting). We would generally find ourselves in agreement. What has become a source of controversy, however, was the means by which people attempted to define the worthy life. Here, for instance, I had seen a number of occasions where one could not see how one could have a fulfilling life without being self-sufficient, and that's how they defined the good life-economic self-sufficiency and public utility. If beings were not granted those two characteristics, that person would view those individuals as seemingly unworthy of life. As there are a substantial number of individuals with disabilities who would not meet self-sufficiency (and come under dispute for the second-despite proof to the contrary), it would be hard to not view that as an attack upon such a population.

I think that the "self-sufficient" comments may have come from me.

I come at this issue from a different place that you. In my youth, the discrimination against women in educational and job opportunities and pay and promotion policies functioned to track women into marriage, and, ideally, dependence on a husband for support, like a kind of societal pimp. In that context, there were pop songs about women trying to "catch" men, casual remarks that women should get a "good catch" for marriage, and young men actually willing to say of women interested in love, marriage, and a family that they were looking for a meal ticket - such men didn't even imagine they were insulting women, love, and parenthood by this, let alone undervaluing the work of housewives and mothers. In that context, the millions of women who rejected marital dependency for single self-sufficiency, and on lower pay in lower jobs while they aspired to better, were striking a blow for the human dignity and equal worth of 50% of the human race.

I would go so far as to say that the movement for rights of the disabled, the recognition of their equal worth, and the fight for their educational and work opportunities has had success partly because the women's movement defied the portrayal of women as less able than men and housewife-mothers as economic leeches on their publicly productive, more able mates.

But my concern regarding abortion is solely that the woman control her own body. Many choices in life can permanently disable people who did not have disabilities before. Pregnancy as a choice presents a risk of that. And if a woman doesn't want to take a chance on that disablement with a particular pregnancy, that is as much her right as is her right not to be a professional race car driver in a particular race. Everyone has a right to decide what particular risks he or she is going to take and when and why.

Consent to sex should not be consent to pregnancy because the particular man one has sex with and his penis are not the particular blastocyst that implants in the uterine wall, whether one considers a blastocyst a mindless entity with human potential or a person.
 
Got a flash for you, lady. God is real and I have no doubt the people who killed their unborn are going to answer for it at the Judgment. I'm just surprised America hasn't come under his judgment already.



It's obvious you've never studied the Bible. Otherwise you wouldn't be posting the nonsense above.



You're the ones defending the slaughter of the innocent unborn. And I'm the one who's disgusting?

Woe to those who call good evil, and evil good.

p.s. Choose life. Your mother did.

I remember reading long ago about a girl who had to go to court to get permission to have an abortion probably for a rape pregnancy. When she was asked by the judge whether she realized that if she had an abortion she would go to hell. She said yes. And the judge asked, and you still want to have an abortion? She said yes. She would rather have gone to hell than continue that pregnancy.

PS The point is not that my mother chose life, but that my mother "chose."
 
Like that's gonna convince you!
hahaha

Seek only faith, love, nothing else saves.

Fake love has never saved anyone. Outside of truth, nothing is saved.
 
I remember reading long ago about a girl who had to go to court to get permission to have an abortion probably for a rape pregnancy. When she was asked by the judge whether she realized that if she had an abortion she would go to hell. She said yes. And the judge asked, and you still want to have an abortion? She said yes. She would rather have gone to hell than continue that pregnancy.

PS The point is not that my mother chose life, but that my mother "chose."

Your mother chose life.

And there's plenty of women who won't go to hell for an abortion. That's called repentance and salvation in Christ.

But repentance and salvation are not a big items with the Planned Parenthood sycophants.
 
Under those "unique" circumstances that should be left to the discretion of a higher medical authority. If you allow any abortions you have to be careful because the dishonesty of the parties involved try to muddy the waters to justify future abortions without merit.

As I have said many times, this attitude is merely the desire to control women by getting to be the judge and jury which decide whether a woman's reasons for abortion are valid from the viewpoint of the judge and jury. It is for this reason that I just chucked the entire sexual world and felt, if men want to have sex and children at all, they are going to have to join in the fight against these people who desire to control women and help women beat them into oblivion. I certainly was not willing to bring ANY child into a world where these people have power, because they speak the opposite of the truth that before God or truth, we are equal, and it is that which ultimately gives us the right to control our own bodies and life forces and prevent them from being used without our consent for purposes in which we do not believe.
 
True but we can't clean up every mess every individual makes that's just not realistic.

??? What are you talking about? Lursa is talking about a lying president and vice-president duping people in our government into invading a foreign country en masse to secure oil resources while pretending that its corrupt leader was stockpiling WMDs. What the government did in that case was make more than a mess and we should never have invaded. What you are trying to do is forcibly prevent individuals from responsibly correct mistakes in their own lives.
 
How do you feel about pictures of aborted fetuses at planned parenthood?

Most pictures of aborted fetuses shown by anti-abortion forces are pictures from late term abortions performed to save women's lives or major health functions. I think the pictures are ugly, but I also think that pictures of surgical operations in progress, pictures of children coming out of the vaginas of women, and many other things are ugly, including pictures of the bodies of soldiers who just lost body parts in acts of heroism in war and pictures of women screaming in pain.

I have no feelings whatsoever about such pictures, because I do not know anything about the extended contextual situations in which they arose.

My feelings about the anti-abortion forces who show pictures of aborted fetuses from late term abortions performed to save women's lives or major health functions and who pretend that they are pictures of pre-viable fetuses is that they are so shameless before God that they would use deception of any kind to get what they want.
 
Of course it is.

You are willing to discount her years of love for something she may have done 30 years ago in a desperate situation.

How much more black and white does it need to be??

My parents were poor when I was born. It wasn't until I was about two that my dad started his career, and by that time, he was twenty nine. It's not so much that I would discount it, but that I would doubt it that it was actually real and not just her own selfish desires. Also, your math is terrible.
 
The basis should be body sovereignty, not privacy. Using such a basis would include the right to the body and privacy. :)

I'm not going to disagree except to say that body sovereignty and privacy are ultimately included in the right to liberty. One reason for using privacy as the basis is that it was obvious to everyone in the US that sexual parts in particular are "private parts," that privacy is one of the most obvious features of pregnancy, since no one can even know you are pregnant without violating your right to privacy regarding your body or your medical records. Also, the first Supreme Court decision on the right to use contraception was grounded in the right of married couples to make their own decisions about reproduction as well as other family matters, and the second, which extended the right to single people, was based on equal protection, i.e., singles had the same rights as marrieds. The right to freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures is one of the big, basic constitutional rights, and it is a key right in claiming that the Constitution implies a right to privacy.
 
No more explanation is needed...you are the one living with those feelings. People make terrible choices about loved ones all the time...like you said...and the regrets and loss are theirs to own as well.

No doubt. What would it mean if she felt nothing of it? Many women feel nothing about aborting their pregnancies even when they have other children or have children after. If she felt something of it that would mean a lot to me, but if it just meant nothing to her, that would very much harm her image in my eyes. Sure, when I'm talking about how it would affect me I'm talking about me, and since I have to deal with the information, I would think how I felt about it would matter. Yes, I have to live with it, and that is the whole damn point I'm making. When women share that they aborted that affects how other people see them, and yes, the reason for them doing it and how they feel about it does in fact matter.
 
That is largely the view I hold. My experience is more personal than most and has carried me through my current historical research on such topics, but when you grow up knowing others have determined your life's worth before you turn 5 years old (as I had, and my sibling), you gain a sense for how those not living the life may or may not view one's potential or worth of life. People tend to see how detrimental or challenging the life may be, rarely consider the good.

I hope you read my post regarding how women were viewed when I was young. I had a friend in hs who ended up editing a famous writer's diaries and went to grad school and got her PhD in psychology and became a professional psychologist. But her mother thought and said that she was a completely worthless daughter because she didn't get married and have kids. That is not at all atypical, though thank God I didn't have a mother like that. In those days, many people only valued women for their sex organs, their sex acts, and their sexual reproduction. That you could have a brilliant intellect or great artistic talent or anything else had no value if you were a woman. For many people, women were just supposed to be obedient sexual flesh and that was their worth.
 
I've always wondered how it would affect someone to find out their mother aborted their sibling. Think of it, you weren't aborted because essentially she just didn't decide to kill you. She had it in her to kill you, but she just decided it was in her own interest to not. That would mean that essentially your worthless to her as a human being, and instead you are thought of as something she could benefit from and nothing more. That is a pretty ****ed up realization to have.

My mom used contraception to prevent pregnancy except for two times in her married life, once when my mom and dad wanted to have their first child, my sister, and once when they wanted to have their second, me. Those were the only times my parents wanted to bring a kid into the world and prayed to have a kid.

By using contraception, they excluded all the other possible kids, luckily for them. Does that mean I'm worthless to my mom because could have decided not to have a second kid and therefore keep using contraception? Far from it.

When my mom and dad prayed to have each kid, they had a definite reason for asking for one and hoped God would answer their prayer because they had a good reason each time. We have raisons d'etre not only from God, but also from our mom and dad, and to them, we were also answers to their prayers and therefore evidence of God's directly responsive love and grace.

I would feel awful if I had been a mistake that my mom and dad could not benefit from, and my sister would, too. We are among those will have mercy, not sacrifice, and will come to be of service and give joy, not selfishly.
 
I hope you read my post regarding how women were viewed when I was young. I had a friend in hs who ended up editing a famous writer's diaries and went to grad school and got her PhD in psychology and became a professional psychologist. But her mother thought and said that she was a completely worthless daughter because she didn't get married and have kids. That is not at all atypical, though thank God I didn't have a mother like that. In those days, many people only valued women for their sex organs, their sex acts, and their sexual reproduction. That you could have a brilliant intellect or great artistic talent or anything else had no value if you were a woman. For many people, women were just supposed to be obedient sexual flesh and that was their worth.

I had to skim it thus far. I will go back and read it slower. I am attempting to overcome writer's bloc at the moment, so I apologize for a quick read and a lack of reply until later tonight.
 
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