Paul Ryan was right — Poverty is a cultural problem

[polgara]

It's unfortunate the debate over this issue always boils down to one side claiming the other side wants people to starve. Frankly, at that point, there is no longer any reason to continue the discussion because its such a pejorative claim.

The truth is exactly as I described it. Generations have learned to live within the means defined monthly by the politicians who play them for votes.

In my opinion, the essence of a persons self worth resides in their desire and drive to better themselves through their own effort. When the underlying incentive is eliminated, many chose to live down to the expectations defined for them.

In the end, the War on Poverty, at least as it's being fought, like the War on Drugs, has proven to be a fools errand. Trillions of dollars have been spent, yet little can be shown for it, other than to add more generations to the program.

:agree: I liked your point "lived down to expectations." It's probably easy to give up, but I think a price is paid in lowered self esteem. It's probably worse for men, because they expect to be able to take of their family's needs, and when they can't, it's got to be a huge ego blow. I have even read about men that still get dressed to go to work every day and leave the house, rather than tell their wife and children they no longer have a job to go to, even when it's not their fault. Sad... !

 

[ocean515]

:agree: I liked your point "lived down to expectations." It's probably easy to give up, but I think a price is paid in lowered self esteem. It's probably worse for men, because they expect to be able to take of their family's needs, and when they can't, it's got to be a huge ego blow. I have even read about men that still get dressed to go to work every day and leave the house, rather than tell their wife and children they no longer have a job to go to, even when it's not their fault. Sad... !

Good evening Polgara :2wave:

Your observation is correct. Perhaps we're designed that way. I happen to believe the single mother issue that is so prevelant in some communities is the result of this "can't provide" guilt. Perhaps it's even made worse by the monthly checks from the government that drive home the point.

When I got out of college, my first two attempts at running my own business were a failure. I remember my wife at home with our 3 month old daughter, $35 in the bank, and handing the keys back to the building owner where I had my business. I guess I'm fortunate that my personality is such that I didn't melt, but dang was I incentivised to get moving!

 

[polgara]

Good evening Polgara :2wave:

Your observation is correct. Perhaps we're designed that way. I happen to believe the single mother issue that is so prevelant in some communities is the result of this "can't provide" guilt. Perhaps it's even made worse by the monthly checks from the government that drive home the point.

When I got out of college, my first two attempts at running my own business were a failure. I remember my wife at home with our 3 month old daughter, $35 in the bank, and handing the keys back to the building owner where I had my business. I guess I'm fortunate that my personality is such that I didn't melt, but dang was I incentivised to get moving!

And from what I've read about your company, you have succeeded! :thumbs: I don't think it's ego for a man, either, but something far more deeply embedded in your wiring. Women don't seem to have that compulsion, although in the animal kingdom, a female will protect her young against all odds, and usually win!

 

[darkrecess]

I couldn't agree more about the "end game" you write of. However, college is not the answer for most students. It's my opinion there must be "skin in the game" or the gift will have little value.

You are right, college is not the answer for some. But as I believe I mentioned later in the post, this end game could also be other things, like vocational school. In my own example, I have my end-game in sight, and am actually pursuing it two different ways (one through hard work and trying to move up internally inside the company I work for), and also externally through getting a college degree.

The effort you have been going through today has added significant value to your effort.

No, it really hasn't. There is no value in being emotionally and psychologically abused for five years. There is no value in abandoning everyone and everything you've ever known because you have no other choice. Where is the value in that? The only value I find is negative, a net loss of value because I ended up losing almost seven years of my life.

If it were all handed to you, would it be as rewarding?

Perhaps not, but again, we are looking for positive value here. There are thousands of college dropouts, every year. There are thousands more who never attend, even though they would do well in a collegiate atmosphere. I'm not suggesting handing them a degree without them putting the work in to back it up, but you shouldn't have to work 80 hours a week and take 18 credit hours to even have a shot at making it through college.

The evidence suggests it's not part of human nature to hold free gifts in high esteem. Consider the massive push to have student loans forgiven. Consider also the push to make entry level jobs pay a living wage (whatever that is).

I believe we must step back for the "entitlement" agenda that has been pushed so strongly over recent years.

And I believe that we, as a society, must step back and realize that we will always need people to cook our meals and stock our shelves at Wal-Mart. This society, built as it is, will always have unskilled jobs that need to be filled. The fact that an individual accepts one of these jobs should not condemn him to begging for table scraps.

You want to get rid of food stamps, medicaid, housing assistance? Fine. Tell the corporate interests that run America's economy to pay a wage to the workers that will eliminate the need for taxpayers subsidizing the cost of low wages and poor benefits. Just because people end up working for Wal-Mart or McDonalds or any of the other low-wage companies on that link does not mean that they don't deserve the respect that we should afford to all human beings - that basic needs, like shelter, food, clothing should not impose an undue financial burden. Should the individual be required to pick up the majority of that tab? Sure, but it's also incumbent upon corporate America to pay wages that make all of these things affordable.

 

[Geoist]

Huh?

Don't you think it is important to provide an alternative meaning when you assert that someone doesn't understand something?

The difference between causation and correlation is nice lexicon and good "bull**** baffles brains" technique, but are YOU sure you know what it is?

What exactly have I said that makes you assume I do not know what it means?

"Correlation does not imply causation" is a phrase used in science and statistics to emphasize that correlation between two variables does not automatically imply that one causes the other (though correlation is necessary for linear causation, and can indicate possible causes or areas for further investigation... in other words, correlation can be a hint)."
Correlation does not imply causation

Some of the conservatives in this thread automatically jump to the conclusion that broken families CAUSE poverty when they have presented no real proof of it. There is only proof of a correlation.

 

[ocean515]

You are right, college is not the answer for some. But as I believe I mentioned later in the post, this end game could also be other things, like vocational school. In my own example, I have my end-game in sight, and am actually pursuing it two different ways (one through hard work and trying to move up internally inside the company I work for), and also externally through getting a college degree.



No, it really hasn't. There is no value in being emotionally and psychologically abused for five years. There is no value in abandoning everyone and everything you've ever known because you have no other choice. Where is the value in that? The only value I find is negative, a net loss of value because I ended up losing almost seven years of my life.



Perhaps not, but again, we are looking for positive value here. There are thousands of college dropouts, every year. There are thousands more who never attend, even though they would do well in a collegiate atmosphere. I'm not suggesting handing them a degree without them putting the work in to back it up, but you shouldn't have to work 80 hours a week and take 18 credit hours to even have a shot at making it through college.



And I believe that we, as a society, must step back and realize that we will always need people to cook our meals and stock our shelves at Wal-Mart. This society, built as it is, will always have unskilled jobs that need to be filled. The fact that an individual accepts one of these jobs should not condemn him to begging for table scraps.

You want to get rid of food stamps, medicaid, housing assistance? Fine. Tell the corporate interests that run America's economy to pay a wage to the workers that will eliminate the need for taxpayers subsidizing the cost of low wages and poor benefits. Just because people end up working for Wal-Mart or McDonalds or any of the other low-wage companies on that link does not mean that they don't deserve the respect that we should afford to all human beings - that basic needs, like shelter, food, clothing should not impose an undue financial burden. Should the individual be required to pick up the majority of that tab? Sure, but it's also incumbent upon corporate America to pay wages that make all of these things affordable.

Hmmm.

I haven't walked a micro inch in your shoes, so it's not for me to be too critical. However, you've described what millions of people have gone through in their lives, as they pursued their dreams and perhaps destiny. There should never be equality on this journey. Any attempt flies in the face of how we as human beings have grown throughout our history here.

Yes, it's tough, and at times it sucks. And that is how it should be.

It seems to me, you're proving that success hasn't been handed to people, they have had to work for it. Congrats on this discovery. Too bad what was reasonable to past generations seems to be too much work to some of the latest ones.

As to the rest of your story, I'm sorry, but I don't have much compassion towards it. There are many factors at play, and following instructions to blame Corporate America for ones own plight is really avoiding the true culprit, the one in the mirror.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Hmmm.

I haven't walked a micro inch in your shoes, so it's not for me to be too critical. However, you've described what millions of people have gone through in their lives, as they pursued their dreams and perhaps destiny. There should never be equality on this journey. Any attempt flies in the face of how we as human beings have grown throughout our history here.

Yes, it's tough, and at times it sucks. And that is how it should be.

It seems to me, you're proving that success hasn't been handed to people, they have had to work for it. Congrats on this discovery. Too bad what was reasonable to past generations seems to be too much work to some of the latest ones.

As to the rest of your story, I'm sorry, but I don't have much compassion towards it. There are many factors at play, and following instructions to blame Corporate America for ones own plight is really avoiding the true culprit, the one in the mirror.

I once thought it was solely the responsibility of the 'one in the mirror', but at the risk of sounding like a hard core liberal, something few would accuse me of, my real life experience has reached a somewhat different conclusion. I think we also have to blame a society that no longer promotes old fashioned traditional values like self reliance, personal integrity, personal initiative, personal responsibility, and pride in being self sufficient and supporting one's family. Now the norm is to promote a victim mentality, an entitlement mentality, a class envy mentality, an anger and blame mentality, and a mentality that sees itself as downtrodden, oppressed, and disadvantaged and due reparations for that. Those raised in such a culture may indeed have no instinct for anything different.

I had the privilege of mentoring two highly intelligent young women who were refugees from New Orleans when they were driven from their homes by Katrina's flooding. Neither had ever known a culture other than that in which they were raised--that victim, depressed, oppressed environment described in the preceding paragraph. Neither had any idea that the whole world didn't think as they thought. Once they were out on their own, had opportunity for the shackles on their minds to fall away, and saw what options and opportunities existed, they chose not to return to New Orleans. They are both now living and working in Denver and were doing great when I last heard from them.

Too many, however, are not as bright as those two are. And they just don't get it that their disadvantaged and oppressed and life is stacked against them mentality is holding them back far more than any other syndrome out there.

 

[polgara]

I once thought it was solely the responsibility of the 'one in the mirror', but at the risk of sounding like a hard core liberal, something few would accuse me of, my real life experience has reached a somewhat different conclusion. I think we also have to blame a society that no longer promotes old fashioned traditional values like self reliance, personal integrity, personal initiative, personal responsibility, and pride in being self sufficient and supporting one's family. Now the norm is to promote a victim mentality, an entitlement mentality, a class envy mentality, an anger and blame mentality, and a mentality that sees itself as downtrodden, oppressed, and disadvantaged and due reparations for that. Those raised in such a culture may indeed have no instinct for anything different.

I had the privilege of mentoring two highly intelligent young women who were refugees from New Orleans when they were driven from their homes by Katrina's flooding. Neither had ever known a culture other than that in which they were raised--that victim, depressed, oppressed environment described in the preceding paragraph. Neither had any idea that the whole world didn't think as they thought. Once they were out on their own, had opportunity for the shackles on their minds to fall away, and saw what options and opportunities existed, they chose not to return to New Orleans. They are both now living and working in Denver and were doing great when I last heard from them.

Too many, however, are not as bright as those two are. And they just don't get it that their disadvantaged and oppressed and life is stacked against them mentality is holding them back far more than any other syndrome out there.

:agree: Very well stated post! :thumbs:

Greetings, AlbuOwl. :2wave:

 

[Linc]

After Paul Ryan's Father died at a young age, his family had no problem taking government benefits all the way through Ryan's college years.
Then he went right to work for the government.
Ryan will receive government bennies from cradle to grave and has the nerve to trash others for what he did/is doing .

 

[ocean515]

I once thought it was solely the responsibility of the 'one in the mirror', but at the risk of sounding like a hard core liberal, something few would accuse me of, my real life experience has reached a somewhat different conclusion. I think we also have to blame a society that no longer promotes old fashioned traditional values like self reliance, personal integrity, personal initiative, personal responsibility, and pride in being self sufficient and supporting one's family. Now the norm is to promote a victim mentality, an entitlement mentality, a class envy mentality, an anger and blame mentality, and a mentality that sees itself as downtrodden, oppressed, and disadvantaged and due reparations for that. Those raised in such a culture may indeed have no instinct for anything different.

I had the privilege of mentoring two highly intelligent young women who were refugees from New Orleans when they were driven from their homes by Katrina's flooding. Neither had ever known a culture other than that in which they were raised--that victim, depressed, oppressed environment described in the preceding paragraph. Neither had any idea that the whole world didn't think as they thought. Once they were out on their own, had opportunity for the shackles on their minds to fall away, and saw what options and opportunities existed, they chose not to return to New Orleans. They are both now living and working in Denver and were doing great when I last heard from them.

Too many, however, are not as bright as those two are. And they just don't get it that their disadvantaged and oppressed and life is stacked against them mentality is holding them back far more than any other syndrome out there.

I wouldn't change a word of what you wrote. When I write of "look in the mirror" I should include the bigger picture, as you've added.

I think we have done a great disservice to younger generations by allowing this sense of entitlement to grow.

Perhaps we provided too much, or we were trying too hard to be different from the clearly more strict upbringing we likely experienced as we grew up. Perhaps we weren't paying attention as the "entitlement crusaders" got into their classrooms and into the places they go, and the things they watch. Whatever the cause, the result is a problem.

Unfortunately for them, the wheat and the chaff are quickly separating, with the chaff, those who think the are owed something, being left behind in the dust.

What an avoidable shame.

 

[iliveonramen]

"irrevocable harm" is not "suffering".

I have heard of splitting hairs in the name of ego but that takes the top prize!

No need to reply, we know where this is going.

And, of course, the poverty pimps NEVER cite anything to back their bull****, just opinions.

Is the first sentence suppose to end with a question mark or are you agreeing with me that irrevocable harm (which I wrote) is not the same as suffering?

What's really crazy about your last sentence is YOUR POST CITED NOTHING! IT WAS ENTIRELY OPINION! It was basically a two paragraph personal attack. Only in your own mind does your opinions require cited facts to refute.

 

[iliveonramen]

It's unfortunate the debate over this issue always boils down to one side claiming the other side wants people to starve. Frankly, at that point, there is no longer any reason to continue the discussion because its such a pejorative claim.

Help me understand. If helping people via SNAP and other safety nets create a culture of dependence then how do you not create dependence? If the issue is people lose the incentive to work when they have the basics then....when you take away the benefits what are the incentives you're creating to work?

In my opinion, the essence of a persons self worth resides in their desire and drive to better themselves through their own effort. When the underlying incentive is eliminated, many chose to live down to the expectations defined for them.

We currently have a system based on need. If you don't make enough money using the poverty line as a metric you'll receive SNAP, Housing assistance, and Medical care.

The argument is that the current system of basing it on need is creating a culture of dependence. What should the system be based on? If using a conservative system someone has crossed some threshold into cultural dependence if they still are in need of assistance will they still receive it? Is it based on need, because if not that would by definition mean people in need may not be receive assistance.

It would go a long way if instead of vague terms there's actually an answer to what a system to create self worth looks like.

 

[ocean515]

Help me understand. If helping people via SNAP and other safety nets create a culture of dependence then how do you not create dependence? If the issue is people lose the incentive to work when they have the basics then....when you take away the benefits what are the incentives you're creating to work?



We currently have a system based on need. If you don't make enough money using the poverty line as a metric you'll receive SNAP, Housing assistance, and Medical care.

The argument is that the current system of basing it on need is creating a culture of dependence. What should the system be based on? If using a conservative system someone has crossed some threshold into cultural dependence if they still are in need of assistance will they still receive it? Is it based on need, because if not that would by definition mean people in need may not be receive assistance.

It would go a long way if instead of vague terms there's actually an answer to what a system to create self worth looks like.

What would you do if you were worried about your next meal?

What would you do if you weren't sure if you would have shelter tonight?

What would you do if the worry about the first two question was removed, forever?

Before you can consider anything else, you need to consider the answer to these three questions.

 

[iliveonramen]

What would you do if you were worried about your next meal?

What would you do if you weren't sure if you would have shelter tonight?

What would you do if the worry about the first two question was removed, forever?

Before you can consider anything else, you need to consider the answer to these three questions.

Well technically those two things are removed for everyone in this country. If you need SNAP you can get it. If you need housing assistance you can get it. These programs are available for all based on need. They are removed for everyone in this country yet 81% of people from the age of 25 to 54 work (Civilian labor force participation rates by age, sex, race, and ethnicity)

 

[Linc]

Too many, however, are not as bright as those two are. And they just don't get it that their disadvantaged and oppressed and life is stacked against them mentality is holding them back far more than any other syndrome out there.

I like you Albuquerque.
I thought of you last weekend when I was in Okla city for the Wresling Nationals.
Severe drought in four corners of NM, CO, OK, TX.
I'll get back to you on this important topic.

As well as in the topic of this thread.
In just this paragraph I quoted, I didn't see this mentality holding back my students for 33 years up to 2009.
Nor do I see it now with those I'm still involved in with sports and tutoring.
I do see severe family problems holding students back, not the mental aspect of said lives.
It's pretty hard to rise above a parent in jail and the other having major problems.
But they are, with the help available to them .

 

[AlbqOwl]

Help me understand. If helping people via SNAP and other safety nets create a culture of dependence then how do you not create dependence? If the issue is people lose the incentive to work when they have the basics then....when you take away the benefits what are the incentives you're creating to work?

We currently have a system based on need. If you don't make enough money using the poverty line as a metric you'll receive SNAP, Housing assistance, and Medical care.

The argument is that the current system of basing it on need is creating a culture of dependence. What should the system be based on? If using a conservative system someone has crossed some threshold into cultural dependence if they still are in need of assistance will they still receive it? Is it based on need, because if not that would by definition mean people in need may not be receive assistance.

It would go a long way if instead of vague terms there's actually an answer to what a system to create self worth looks like.

The point being made, however, is the point that programs like SNAP, housing assistance, Medicaid, and other such programs, administered on a one-size-fits-all federal level, encourage far more dependency and underachievement than they actually help those who must have help. A moral society does indeed take care of the truly helpless, but that does not have to be, in fact should not be, from the federal level.

But when people begin to see such programs as their right to have by virtue of them being born, when they are trained to feel a sense of loss should they no longer qualify for such programs instead of a sense of pride when they no longer need them, we are teaching people not to look to themselves for what they need and want, but to look for others to provide that to them as their birthright. We encourage them to be dependent instead of instilling self pride and self worth that makes people ashamed to need charity and proud that they don't.

When we make people comfortable in poverty, we create whole generations who see no purpose or reason to do what is necessary to escape it. None of us want to see anybody go hungry or without other essentials of life. But neither do we want people to prefer poverty because it gets them respect and freebies and is just too costly or takes too much effort to escape it.

 

[ocean515]

Well technically those two things are removed for everyone in this country. If you need SNAP you can get it. If you need housing assistance you can get it. These programs are available for all based on need. They are removed for everyone in this country yet 81% of people from the age of 25 to 54 work (Civilian labor force participation rates by age, sex, race, and ethnicity)

You're not getting the point.

If there were no SNAP, what would you do? If there was no Section 8 housing or other form of shelter assistance, what would you do?

If in turn, you never had to worry about either again, for the rest of your life, what would do?

 

[cabse5]

And how exactly would like them to do that? Federal control over business? More government workers? I thought those were two things that conservatives were pretty staunchly against? What do you think a president (not congress, but a president with no legislative power) ought to do to solve this problem?

I laugh every time a liberal (or conservative) attempts to translate the thinking of the direct opposite in political thought... It's what has made our political system so ugly and fruitless.

 

[iliveonramen]

The point being made, however, is the point that programs like SNAP, housing assistance, Medicaid, and other such programs, administered on a one-size-fits-all federal level, encourage far more dependency and underachievement than they actually help those who must have help. A moral society does indeed take care of the truly helpless, but that does not have to be, in fact should not be, from the federal level.

There are a lot of programs where I promote the use of block grants. Who can train someone better for a job in a specific city or state other than the people from that city or state? I agree with that. I agree that a lot of program that generally are meant to get people to work or improve their lives should be done at the local level.

I just don't agree for basic transfer payments. It makes no sense. It creates multiple administrative units just passing along checks. These transfer payments are based on the idea that if you need it you can get it. What changes would be made to the system to validate the need for making it a block grant?

When we make people comfortable in poverty, we create whole generations who see no purpose or reason to do what is necessary to escape it. None of us want to see anybody go hungry or without other essentials of life. But neither do we want people to prefer poverty because it gets them respect and freebies and is just too costly or takes too much effort to escape it.

That's the rub...what do you do? Do you base it on need or base it on some other way of determining if people qualify? If it's some other way does that mean people that need it may not get it? Right now it errors on the side of making sure everybody has access to basics. It's not perfect...but neither is any other system that may result in people in need of help not getting it. At least in our current imperfect system we know everybody with a need has it. I'm not happy either about people that think that's the end game...live off assistance.

 

[iliveonramen]

You're not getting the point.

If there were no SNAP, what would you do? If there was no Section 8 housing or other form of shelter assistance, what would you do?

If in turn, you never had to worry about either again, for the rest of your life, what would do?

Probably the same thing I do now. I've never used Section 8 housing or SNAP. It exists in case I ever need it but I don't and prefer my current home/salary/living standard.

I guess you're asking if I grew up in a family using those two systems would I be different? Maybe...but heck our current Gov in Florida grew up in Section 8 with a family in need of SNAP. It's not like people never leave it and it automatically creates some culture of dependence. Does a culture of dependence exist for some? I have no doubt. At the same time a lot of people that work have need of SNAP.

 

[ocean515]

Probably the same thing I do now. I've never used Section 8 housing or SNAP. It exists in case I ever need it but I don't and prefer my current home/salary/living standard.

I guess you're asking if I grew up in a family using those two systems would I be different? Maybe...but heck our current Gov in Florida grew up in Section 8 with a family in need of SNAP. It's not like people never leave it and it automatically creates some culture of dependence. Does a culture of dependence exist for some? I have no doubt. At the same time a lot of people that work have need of SNAP.

I have yet to see anyone suggest these programs be ended completely. The question is how to stop adding generations of the same families to the program. Short term is one thing, lifelong is another.

 

[darkrecess]

Hmmm.

I haven't walked a micro inch in your shoes, so it's not for me to be too critical. However, you've described what millions of people have gone through in their lives, as they pursued their dreams and perhaps destiny. There should never be equality on this journey. Any attempt flies in the face of how we as human beings have grown throughout our history here.

I think I will agree with you, here, although maybe for not the reasons you think. As I mentioned in my previous post, there will always be a need for people on the lower rungs - people to stock shelves and flip our burgers. So no, equality won't be achieved, and in some respects I don't think it ever should be. But at the same time, denying that all people deserve the equality of respect just by nature of their human status is, on face, a symptom of an immoral society.

Yes, it's tough, and at times it sucks. And that is how it should be.

I am not saying that challenges don't help provide a sense of achievement. More on this in a moment.

It seems to me, you're proving that success hasn't been handed to people, they have had to work for it.

There is a difference between success and subsistence. What I am saying is that subsistence should not be too much to ask for in a moral society. Like I said before, should the individual have to put in an effort here? Hell yes. But the economic situation right now in this country is such that there are barriers to even subsistence which make it categorically impossible to achieve success. Low wages, poor benefits and a subsidization of corporate cost-cutting leave no room for the federal or state governments to act on helping people find subsistence so that, with the proper amount of work, success becomes possible.

Congrats on this discovery. Too bad what was reasonable to past generations seems to be too much work to some of the latest ones.

You know, past generations have had the benefits of different legislations. As an example, soldiers returning home from World War II had the GI Bill to assist them. That GI Bill offered a range of benefits, including low-cost mortgages (shelter), cash payments for tuition and living expenses (food) while the former GI attended school (be it vocational, college, or, in some cases, finishing high school). As a result, 2.2 million people went to college or university, and an additional 6.6 million used the benefits to attend some kind of training program. As a result, we entered one of the greatest periods of economic prosperity this country ever enjoyed, leading the world in just about every major scientific, medical or technological breakthrough for the next 50 years. Imagine if we reincarnated this kind of program for at-risk youth and young adults. Can you imagine it? The government, stepping in and saying, look, if you step up to the plate and do what you need to do to get some kind of paperwork (be it a vocational degree, or an actual college degree) and help offset the cost by working a reasonable amount, we will help fund the rest. If you can take care of the details to work towards success, we will provide for subsistence so that this country can lead the way for the next 50 years.

As to the rest of your story, I'm sorry, but I don't have much compassion towards it. There are many factors at play, and following instructions to blame Corporate America for ones own plight is really avoiding the true culprit, the one in the mirror.

The one in the mirror? Are you ****ing for real? I've busted my balls every day since I graduated high school just to put food on the table. I sleep 3 hours a day because I work seven days a week, making 10.55 an hour, and take a full load of college classes on top of it. I am mortgaging my health every day so that I can secure my future. I have a partial tear in my rotator cuff, yet every day I go to work, slinging 30, 40, 50 pound boxes around a room that measures at 0 degrees fahrenheit just to be able to keep a roof over my head and food in my belly. The best thing that has happened to me recently is qualifying for the Medicaid expansion in Ohio, yet because of the late time table in which Ohio approved it, I had already enrolled in my employer's health insurance to avoid the tax penalty, and now I am stuck paying 50$ a week for health insurance for the next year that I will never use. The only saving grace I have is my divorce coming through this summer, which will enable me to drop my health insurance through my employer (because of open enrollment rules).

And, as you so graciously mention, there is an entire generation of people in situation similar to mine. Can you ****ing imagine the impact it would have on the next 50 years if the government and corporate America would step up and say okay, let's pay a little bit better wages and offer a little bit better benefits, and if you continue working hard, here is a subsidy to help you find subsistence so that you can work for success?

So no, dude. Have I made some mistakes in my life? Oh hell yes, and at this point I've more than atoned for them. But to say that I am doomed to exist in a cycle of poverty because of those mistakes, and that it is all my fault? Go **** yourself, and have a nice day.

 

[AlbqOwl]

You're not getting the point.

If there were no SNAP, what would you do? If there was no Section 8 housing or other form of shelter assistance, what would you do?

If in turn, you never had to worry about either again, for the rest of your life, what would do?

We would do the same as we did long before there was a SNAP program or Section 8 housing or any other federal programs to 'help the poor'. There were some state programs and local communities pooled resources, the charities and churches helped as they could to get somebody back on their feet and earning their own way again. Federal programs now are targeted to gain approval and votes for those in Congress, with almost no emphasis on getting anybody back on their feet and earning their own way. And when you also take away pride and self respect in being self supporting, and make it respectable, even a point of pride in being dependent, the problem is magnified.

 

[iliveonramen]

I have yet to see anyone suggest these programs be ended completely. The question is how to stop adding generations of the same families to the program. Short term is one thing, lifelong is another.

I'm not saying you or Ryan are advocating the complete ending of the programs.

I'm saying that it's based on need and it's claimed that basing it on need has the potential to create a culture of dependence.

Therefore we need to change how it's distributed to another method...correct?

Does that method result in people that need the assistance not getting it?

Let's say there is a cap on the amount of time you get SNAP....so what happens if say a single mother reaches that cap? Does she no longer receive assistance?

 

[ocean515]

I think I will agree with you, here, although maybe for not the reasons you think. As I mentioned in my previous post, there will always be a need for people on the lower rungs - people to stock shelves and flip our burgers. So no, equality won't be achieved, and in some respects I don't think it ever should be. But at the same time, denying that all people deserve the equality of respect just by nature of their human status is, on face, a symptom of an immoral society.



I am not saying that challenges don't help provide a sense of achievement. More on this in a moment.



There is a difference between success and subsistence. What I am saying is that subsistence should not be too much to ask for in a moral society. Like I said before, should the individual have to put in an effort here? Hell yes. But the economic situation right now in this country is such that there are barriers to even subsistence which make it categorically impossible to achieve success. Low wages, poor benefits and a subsidization of corporate cost-cutting leave no room for the federal or state governments to act on helping people find subsistence so that, with the proper amount of work, success becomes possible.



You know, past generations have had the benefits of different legislations. As an example, soldiers returning home from World War II had the GI Bill to assist them. That GI Bill offered a range of benefits, including low-cost mortgages (shelter), cash payments for tuition and living expenses (food) while the former GI attended school (be it vocational, college, or, in some cases, finishing high school). As a result, 2.2 million people went to college or university, and an additional 6.6 million used the benefits to attend some kind of training program. As a result, we entered one of the greatest periods of economic prosperity this country ever enjoyed, leading the world in just about every major scientific, medical or technological breakthrough for the next 50 years. Imagine if we reincarnated this kind of program for at-risk youth and young adults. Can you imagine it? The government, stepping in and saying, look, if you step up to the plate and do what you need to do to get some kind of paperwork (be it a vocational degree, or an actual college degree) and help offset the cost by working a reasonable amount, we will help fund the rest. If you can take care of the details to work towards success, we will provide for subsistence so that this country can lead the way for the next 50 years.



The one in the mirror? Are you ****ing for real? I've busted my balls every day since I graduated high school just to put food on the table. I sleep 3 hours a day because I work seven days a week, making 10.55 an hour, and take a full load of college classes on top of it. I am mortgaging my health every day so that I can secure my future. I have a partial tear in my rotator cuff, yet every day I go to work, slinging 30, 40, 50 pound boxes around a room that measures at 0 degrees fahrenheit just to be able to keep a roof over my head and food in my belly. The best thing that has happened to me recently is qualifying for the Medicaid expansion in Ohio, yet because of the late time table in which Ohio approved it, I had already enrolled in my employer's health insurance to avoid the tax penalty, and now I am stuck paying 50$ a week for health insurance for the next year that I will never use. The only saving grace I have is my divorce coming through this summer, which will enable me to drop my health insurance through my employer (because of open enrollment rules).

And, as you so graciously mention, there is an entire generation of people in situation similar to mine. Can you ****ing imagine the impact it would have on the next 50 years if the government and corporate America would step up and say okay, let's pay a little bit better wages and offer a little bit better benefits, and if you continue working hard, here is a subsidy to help you find subsistence so that you can work for success?

So no, dude. Have I made some mistakes in my life? Oh hell yes, and at this point I've more than atoned for them. But to say that I am doomed to exist in a cycle of poverty because of those mistakes, and that it is all my fault? Go **** yourself, and have a nice day.

Go F myself? Really?

Have you walked a micro inch in my shoes? Do you know what I've gone through to get where I am? You think you're special because you're working hard and going to school?

When I was in College full time I had 5 roommates to help cover the rent. In addition to my day job, I cleaned office buildings at night. That's right mopped floors and scrubbed toilets. I had one partial day off. I did that for the best part of 6 years because I also went to graduate school.

So, why don't you stop thinking about me F'ng myself, and start thinking about removing your head from your ass so you stop psycho screwing yourself.

Suck it up buttercup. It gets better if you shut your mouth and your mind long enough to let it.