Patriotism

[bub]

If you are a citizen of a country, if you were born in Belgium and/or own a Belgian citizenship, you can be proud of your country's achievements.

For example, if not for Belgium, Americans wouldn't have something to eat their giant cheeseburgers with.

I find it a bit stupid to be proud of someone else's achievements

 

[Apocalypse]

I find it a bit stupid to be proud of someone else's achievements

So you wouldn't be proud if your father was titled the best chef in the world, or if your friend has invented the cure to AIDS.

 

[bub]

So you wouldn't be proud if your father was titled the best chef in the world, or if your friend has invented the cure to AIDS.

If it was a member of my family or a close friend, probably, but it should not be beyond that

 

[Apocalypse]

If it was a member of my family or a close friend, probably, but it should not be beyond that

What marks the limit for pride?

 

[WI Crippler]

We're all parts of different groups, our identity is multiple. I'm not just a citizen of a country, I'm also a male, a student, from the middle class etc...

So I should also be proud of being a male, and show everyone this pride by singing a macho song and waving a macho flag?

People show pride in their schools, particularly at the college level. Waving flags and singing fight songs, etc....You can be proud of everything good that you are a part of.

 

[bub]

What marks the limit for pride?

IMO, it should be something like your close family and close friends

 

[bub]

People show pride in their schools, particularly at the college level. Waving flags and singing fight songs, etc....You can be proud of everything good that you are a part of.

And what's the point of doing that? I'm not a member of a community because I sing a fight song, I'm a member because I have common values.

 

[Apocalypse]

IMO, it should be something like your close family and close friends

Anything that you can put a 'my' before saying is worthy of your pride.

Just look at sports, people always go about how "my team has beaten up your team" and stuff like that.
Yet, most of them have no relatives or friends in that team, so how come?

 

[WI Crippler]

And what's the point of doing that? I'm not a member of a community because I sing a fight song, I'm a member because I have common values.

Flags/songs are external representations of those common values.

 

[bub]

Flags/songs are external representations of those common values.

But like I said, I'm culturally closer to a Frenchman who lives in Roubaix or Lilles than with a Belgian who lives in Hasselt.

Just like I have more in common with an Italian student than with a Belgian jobless, or with a French liberal than with a Belgian socialist.

 

[windovervocalcords]

but there is no achievement in being citizen of a country. Everyone is born somewhere!

Right. I should be proud of being born in Brooklyn? There is nothing to be pround of. It's just a place. Now that said, am I fortunate to be born in a country with democracy and religious freedom? Yes.

I have the fortune but it's nothing to be proud of. I did nothing to earn it.

 

[Apocalypse]

But like I said, I'm culturally closer to a Frenchman who lives in Roubaix or Lilles than with a Belgian who lives in Hasselt.

Just like I have more in common with an Italian student than with a Belgian jobless, or with a French liberal than with a Belgian socialist.

So basically you have no appreciation for your homeland?

You two do not get along?

 

[bub]

Anything that you can put a 'my' before saying is worthy of your pride.

Just look at sports, people always go about how "my team has beaten up your team" and stuff like that.
Yet, most of them have no relatives or friends in that team, so how come?

I think that it is stupid.

But maybe it's because I'm reading Chomsky's books lol

Now there are other media too whose basic social role is quite different: it's diversion. There's the real mass media-the kinds that are aimed at, you know, Joe Six Pack -- that kind. The purpose of those media is just to dull people's brains.

This is an oversimplification, but for the eighty percent or whatever they are, the main thing is to divert them. To get them to watch National Football League. And to worry about "Mother With Child With Six Heads," or whatever you pick up on the supermarket stands and so on. Or look at astrology. Or get involved in fundamentalist stuff or something or other. Just get them away. Get them away from things that matter. And for that it's important to reduce their capacity to think.

Take, say, sports -- that's another crucial example of the indoctrination system, in my view. For one thing because it -- you know, it offers people something to pay attention to that's of no importance. [audience laughs] That keeps them from worrying about -- [applause] keeps them from worrying about things that matter to their lives that they might have some idea of doing something about. And in fact it's striking to see the intelligence that's used by ordinary people in [discussions of] sports [as opposed to political and social issues]. I mean, you listen to radio stations where people call in -- they have the most exotic information [more laughter] and understanding about all kind of arcane issues. And the press undoubtedly does a lot with this.

You know, I remember in high school, already I was pretty old. I suddenly asked myself at one point, why do I care if my high school team wins the football game? [laughter] I mean, I don't know anybody on the team, you know? [audience roars] I mean, they have nothing to do with me, I mean, why I am cheering for my team? It doesn't mean any -- it doesn't make sense. But the point is, it does make sense: it's a way of building up irrational attitudes of submission to authority, and group cohesion behind leadership elements -- in fact, it's training in irrational jingoism. That's also a feature of competitive sports. I think if you look closely at these things, I think, typically, they do have functions, and that's why energy is devoted to supporting them and creating a basis for them and advertisers are willing to pay for them and so on.

Excerpts from Manufacturing Consent, Noam Chomsky interviewed by various interviewers

 

[windovervocalcords]

So basically you have no appreciation for your homeland?

You two do not get along?

Appreciation for the fortune of being born in a free country and patriotism are two different things.

 

[WI Crippler]

But like I said, I'm culturally closer to a Frenchman who lives in Roubaix or Lilles than with a Belgian who lives in Hasselt.

Just like I have more in common with an Italian student than with a Belgian jobless, or with a French liberal than with a Belgian socialist.

Are there not Belgians with whom you do share common values? Or are you just focused on negative portrayals of your own society?

 

[bub]

So basically you have no appreciation for your homeland?

You two do not get along?

I don't dislike my country, but nothing should prevent me from being critical and as lucid as possible.

The problem is that "patriots" tend to see only the positive things in their country. Proud Americans will say that USA is the country of freedom, democracy etc... while Americans have commited war crimes, have bombed civilians, have long been racist and segregationists...and it's the same for every country.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

I'm proud of living in and contributing to a country founded on ideals of liberty, justice, and equality, where people can choose their own destinies and where the black child of a single mom can grow up to be president.

 

[WI Crippler]

I don't dislike my country, but nothing should prevent me from being critical and as lucid as possible.

The problem is that "patriots" tend to see only the positive things in their country. Proud Americans will say that USA is the country of freedom, democracy etc... while Americans have commited war crimes, have bombed civilians, have long been racist and segregationists...and it's the same for every country.

Those aren't the things patriots are proud of bub.

 

[Apocalypse]

I think that it is stupid.

But maybe it's because I'm reading Chomsky's books lol

Chomsky is a conspiracy theorist, a far-leftist radical and a nutjob, so yes it might be because of that. :2razz:

 

[bub]

Are there not Belgians with whom you do share common values?

There is no Belgian value or Belgian culture. If there is something that most Belgian believe in (like Democracy or equality of men and women), it is also shared by Frenchmen and Germans.

Or are you just focused on negative portrayals of your own society?

I try to be neutral

 

[Apocalypse]

Appreciation for the fortune of being born in a free country and patriotism are two different things.

Patriotism is the love devotion to one's country.
It is being proud of your country when it is successful and being sad with your country when it is sad.
That is to summarize the term.

So yes, I was speaking on patriotism.

 

[bub]

I'm proud of living in and contributing to a country founded on ideals of liberty, justice, and equality, where people can choose their own destinies and where the black child of a single mom can grow up to be president.

But those things are possible in the entire western world. Justice, liberty and equality are not American values, they are values shared by the entire European continent too.

 

[Apocalypse]

I don't dislike my country, but nothing should prevent me from being critical and as lucid as possible.

The problem is that "patriots" tend to see only the positive things in their country. Proud Americans will say that USA is the country of freedom, democracy etc... while Americans have commited war crimes, have bombed civilians, have long been racist and segregationists...and it's the same for every country.

Are you saying that it is wrong for them to point out at the positive (and stronger) side of their country?

 

[Catz Part Deux]

There is no Belgian value or Belgian culture. If there is something that most Belgian believe in (like Democracy or equality of men and women), it is also shared by Frenchmen and Germans.

Can't you be proud of your excellent beer and chocolate?

 

[Catz Part Deux]

But those things are possible in the entire western world. Justice, liberty and equality are not American values, they are values shared by the entire European continent too.

Really. How many black men have been elected president in other western countries? Those values may be shared, but we fought for them. Perhaps we are more proud of them because we realize the price to be paid for them, whereas many Europeans accept them as givens.