Paternity Test Ban Upheld in France (1 Viewer)

[Real Korimyr #9]

Agreed to raise the child? Was there a written contract some where?

Do you really, seriously not believe that giving a child your family name and raising that child within your home does not create a moral obligation to continue raising that child?

If a man wants to raise a child that isn't his, he can adopt one. Very simple. If he doesn't he doesn't. There is no blood bond between a man and the child of another man. Not that mans' responsability, but of the genuine father and the mother.

Blood does not make a family and a paternity test does not make a man a "genuine" father.

 

[Rainman05]

Blood does not make a family and a paternity test does not make a man a "genuine" father.

Blood does make one family, but it doesn't make one a family. That is true.

But there is a bigger chance that the father will stick around and take care of the kid if it is his, then if it isn't.

 

[Helix]

Why not? It is not like getting a paternity test will force the father to pay for the kid or even be around it. Only a court order can do that ... well at least pay.

because if infidelity is suspected, the parent should be able to gather evidence without a court order.

 

[Camlon]

I would guess that you have to automatically pay child support if a girl living with you get pregnant. If that is not the case, what about if you are married and then get divorced because you believe she cheated on you?

So if that happens you are not allowed to get a DNA test to make sure you are the father and should pay child support the next 18 years. You just have to pay for a child that is not even yours?

If that is the case, another stupid law from France.

 

[jamesrage]

Wth? It is how they do it everywhere. If someone accuses someone of something, then it is the first person that has to prove it. Now she cant get a paternity test without a court order, but so what... she cant get jack**** without a court getting involved anyways. Or is it standard practice in the US, that when a woman makes a claim then she is believed always and does not have to prove anything?

It is really how they do it everywhere or are you just guessing?

Nice try... deflecting to avoid embarresment. What the hell are you babbling about? If a father wants to DNA test his off spring but does not have custody, then he needs to go through a court sanctioned processed. Like it or not, it is fine that you in the US can do home DNA tests, but they still do not stand up in court. So like it or not, if a father wants to prove that the kid is his, then he has to go through the courts in France... what is the big deal about that? If a mother wants to prove that a man is the father and hence is obligated by law to provide child support... then she has to go through the courts to get a DNA test and a judgement in her favour. Or are you of that belief that all people work this kind of thing out in private with fairies and daffodils?

You are accusing us of hating France as the real reason for our dislike of this law.It is you who is deflecting.

Horse****.. it does not hold up in court. And in the end of the day you can refuse and take it to court and then yes the court can require a paternity test. The woman can put Jesus Christ as the father... she still wont get a dime from him as long as it has not gone through the legal system.

So not only do you claim to know how laws all over Europe work regarding child support and legal responsibility of children, now claim to know how laws in the US work.

Lets make it clear once and for all. This law does not ban paternity tests in France.

No one said it banned paternity tests.

It bans private paternity tests where one side is not in agreement or even knows.

Why should you need the permission of the person who is not getting tested?

Again it is how it done everywhere... it is the basics of the legal system. The accuser has to prove the accusation.... and the only way she can and make it legal is by going to court, where a paternity test can be ordered to sort out the mess.

You do not know how its done everywhere.

What? Listen.. this law is to prevent that anyone takes your DNA for testing without your consent. Like it or not, your DNA is ... yours, it is private. Having a woman steal your DNA and then testing it without your consent to confirm that you are the father.. is.. For one, how on earth can we trust the test if it is done in secret?

.

The law from what I understands prevents DNA testing if both parties do not agree.

It is exactly the same thing but you refuse to see it because of your hatred towards the French. A parents legal right is only binding IF you are the parent and can prove it. If there is a dispute the only binding resolution is found via a court of law and here the court can order a DNA test

You are deflecting.This law is stupid regardless what country has this law.A father should not need the mother's permission to get a paternity test on the child.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

We do differentiate between a biological father and a father-figure . . . you know. They really seem to think we don't (I guess) - because obviously they don't get it.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

I would guess that you have to automatically pay child support if a girl living with you get pregnant. If that is not the case, what about if you are married and then get divorced because you believe she cheated on you?

Without a paternity test, how can they compel you? That's why they're allowable only with a court order.

Of course, I don't think a man should be forced to accept paternity of a child any more than a woman is forced to bear one.

 

[Camlon]

Without a paternity test, how can they compel you? That's why they're allowable only with a court order.

Of course, I don't think a man should be forced to accept paternity of a child any more than a woman is forced to bear one.

In America if you are married and get divorced, then you will automatically pay child support if no evidence suggest otherwise.

In America he can get some DNA from his child and himself and get a paternity test. In France he has to get a court order (very difficult). Also, there are cases when the mother denies that you are the father. In America you can get some DNA and prove it. In France you have to get a court order which is very difficult in France. There is a reason only 1500 had paternity test, and my guess is that at least half of them were voluntary.

The laws results in men paying child support for kids that aren't theirs, and dads who are unable to see their kids.

 

[PeteEU]

It is really how they do it everywhere or are you just guessing?

Trying to bait me into an infraction wont work.

You are accusing us of hating France as the real reason for our dislike of this law.It is you who is deflecting.

Because there is no logic in your arguments. You have not made your case what so ever to dislike the law... which has been in place for a long time btw. It does not prevent paternity tests.. so what is the problem?

So not only do you claim to know how laws all over Europe work regarding child support and legal responsibility of children, now claim to know how laws in the US work.

Come on.. stop baiting.

No one said it banned paternity tests.

Err the OP title says it!

Why should you need the permission of the person who is not getting tested?

Why are you deflecting? Are you even reading what I am writing?

You do not know how its done everywhere.

Everywhere on the planet? Nope, but I know how it is done in Denmark, Spain and France.. and they are pretty much the same and I suspect that the US is the same, unless you have some sort of weird system where women can accuse men of anything and not have to prove anything... guess that must mean you have a 100% rape conviction rate in the US right?

Let me ask you this... Say a man suspects that the kid he is paying for is not his, but on the birth certificate it states it is his. So he does a DNA test and finds out it is not his... can he stop paying for the kid? Of course not, he would still have to go through the court system, because the birth certificate states it is his. And in going through the court system, the woman's lawyer would surely want a new DNA test because the man can not be trusted nor can his DNA test. Hence the court system orders a new DNA test and then we are at the same point as the French system.... so what is the freaking problem?

Or do you have stock in some of those home DNA test companies and fear that their market will go away?

The law from what I understands prevents DNA testing if both parties do not agree.

Yes you are correct... unless it is court mandated! That is the whole freaking point. If person A wants a DNA test and person B does not, then person A needs to go to the courts to get the DNA test done... how hard is it to understand this? It is no different in the US on pretty much everything. If someone does not consent to a test or procedure or agreement, then you have to take them to arbitration or court.. it is basic contract law for peak sake.

You are deflecting.This law is stupid regardless what country has this law.A father should not need the mother's permission to get a paternity test on the child.

And your anti-French attitude shines through yet again.. congrats. A father should follow the law of the land right? If he has his suspicions then he should take the mother to court if the mother does not agree to the DNA test. If he is suspicious then he most likely already has other issues with the mother no? Or is it standard practice for American men to doubt their women and do secret DNA tests on their offspring to make sure that their property.. er woman is not sleeping around?

 

[PeteEU]

In America if you are married and get divorced, then you will automatically pay child support if no evidence suggest otherwise.

In America he can get some DNA from his child and himself and get a paternity test.

Yes but it is not legally binding. He will still have to go through the court system, who most likely will demand a new impartial DNA test... and only then will he be "left off the hook" so to say.

In France he has to get a court order (very difficult).

It is not difficult.. time consuming maybe, but not difficult.

Also, there are cases when the mother denies that you are the father. In America you can get some DNA and prove it.

And again no. You can get a DNA test but there is no legal binding in said test. You still have to go through the legal system, a system where lawyers most likely will demand another DNA test mandated by the court.

In France you have to get a court order which is very difficult in France. There is a reason only 1500 had paternity test, and my guess is that at least half of them were voluntary.

It is not very difficult.. just because there are few, does not mean it is difficult. There are so many other factors involved. Ever think that most families just work it out? France is not the US when it comes to suing each other over trivial ****.

The laws results in men paying child support for kids that aren't theirs, and dads who are unable to see their kids.

Horse****...where on earth is that in any way proven?

 

[jamesrage]

Trying to bait me into an infraction wont work.



Because there is no logic in your arguments. You have not made your case what so ever to dislike the law... which has been in place for a long time btw. It does not prevent paternity tests.. so what is the problem?



Come on.. stop baiting.



Err the OP title says it!



Why are you deflecting? Are you even reading what I am writing?



Everywhere on the planet? Nope, but I know how it is done in Denmark, Spain and France.. and they are pretty much the same and I suspect that the US is the same, unless you have some sort of weird system where women can accuse men of anything and not have to prove anything... guess that must mean you have a 100% rape conviction rate in the US right?

Let me ask you this... Say a man suspects that the kid he is paying for is not his, but on the birth certificate it states it is his. So he does a DNA test and finds out it is not his... can he stop paying for the kid? Of course not, he would still have to go through the court system, because the birth certificate states it is his. And in going through the court system, the woman's lawyer would surely want a new DNA test because the man can not be trusted nor can his DNA test. Hence the court system orders a new DNA test and then we are at the same point as the French system.... so what is the freaking problem?

Or do you have stock in some of those home DNA test companies and fear that their market will go away?



Yes you are correct... unless it is court mandated! That is the whole freaking point. If person A wants a DNA test and person B does not, then person A needs to go to the courts to get the DNA test done... how hard is it to understand this? It is no different in the US on pretty much everything. If someone does not consent to a test or procedure or agreement, then you have to take them to arbitration or court.. it is basic contract law for peak sake.



And your anti-French attitude shines through yet again.. congrats. A father should follow the law of the land right? If he has his suspicions then he should take the mother to court if the mother does not agree to the DNA test. If he is suspicious then he most likely already has other issues with the mother no? Or is it standard practice for American men to doubt their women and do secret DNA tests on their offspring to make sure that their property.. er woman is not sleeping around?

You can't win so you have to resort to accusing others of hating a particular country and then you have the nerve to accuse me of deflecting. The fact is the father should not need the mother's permission to have his and his alleged child's dna tested. You are not a citizen of every country in the world so you don't know squat about how laws work in every single country. It has nothing to do with hating the french because the french law is stupid regardless of what country has it. I will not waste any more of my time with you.

 

[ChrisL]

This has to be one of the most stupid things I've ever heard. Since when is it okay to force someone to care for a child that may not be his? It's like, as a woman you can go out and have affairs and get pregnant by anyone, but your husband is going to remain financially and otherwise responsible for the resultant child, even if it isn't his child, and he doesn't even have the opportunity to prove it? And what if the husband KNOWS the wife has cheated and the child is most likely not his, then what? He is still "responsible" for it? It's really quite sick IMO.

What if this worked the other way, and the husband went out and impregnated some woman who then didn't want to care for the child, so the husband brings this child home to his wife and says it's your responsibility to raise and care for this child that isn't yours and that I had with some other woman?!!?!

That is MESSED up!

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

The laws results in men paying child support for kids that aren't theirs, and dads who are unable to see their kids.

No, it results in fathers not being able to abandon their children for their mothers' sins and adulterers not having the right to steal children out from under the fathers that raised them.

 

[Rainman05]

No, it results in fathers not being able to abandon their children for their mothers' sins and adulterers not having the right to steal children out from under the fathers that raised them.

If you are not the biological parent of a child, you aren't really his "father" per se. So you can't abandon him as his "father". You are nothing more and nothing less than his (unknowing) adoptive parent. And moreover, if a man wants to adopt a child that isn't his, he should have the right to do so. But it should be his choice. Not have that decision made for him in secret by a deceitful **** who slept around and got knocked up.

 

[PeteEU]

You can't win so you have to resort to accusing others of hating a particular country and then you have the nerve to accuse me of deflecting. The fact is the father should not need the mother's permission to have his and his alleged child's dna tested. You are not a citizen of every country in the world so you don't know squat about how laws work in every single country. It has nothing to do with hating the french because the french law is stupid regardless of what country has it. I will not waste any more of my time with you.

So you realize that you are wrong and hence resort to personal attacks and refuse to admit your failure.. so instead you double down on your opinion like any bad conservative and hope that it one day will become fact...

Fact is the father can get a paternity test by going through the court system or having the woman involved agree to the test. Fact, even if he could do a paternity test outside the court system like in the US and without the consent of the woman involved (aka in secret), that paternity test would mean absolutely nothing in legal terms, because... drum-roll... it was not done in conjunction with a legal process. He could not claim any rights to the child, nor could he stop paying if the test proved he was not the father. Only by going through the legal system could he do any of those and in doing so a new paternity test would most likely be ordered.

Now I may not know all the laws of all countries, but if you knew even a little about the law, then you would know that most basic laws in the western industrialized world are the same and often based on basic logic.

The fact that you and Jamesrage still dodge the basic facts on this issue only shows that the motivation has to be more than a disagreement with the law it self, and the only thing that comes to mind is the fact that it happens in France.. because as everyone knows.. Americans have high animosity towards France and the French. What do I base this on? Oh maybe that Germany has the exact same rules and has had them for years, and yet some how that is not a problem?

Face it, what this is about is a ban on secret paternity tests... without the consent of both parties involved. And you and jamesrage have yet to even comment why this is wrong and have instead used have arsed attempted to justify your views by claiming it is the right of the father to know if the kid is his... and this law some how forces men to pay for kids that are not his... without you guys providing proof of course of such a state..

 

[jamesrage]

So you realize that you are wrong and hence resort to personal attacks and refuse to admit your failure.. so instead you double down on your opinion like any bad conservative and hope that it one day will become fact...

Fact is the father can get a paternity test by going through the court system or having the woman involved agree to the test. Fact, even if he could do a paternity test outside the court system like in the US and without the consent of the woman involved (aka in secret), that paternity test would mean absolutely nothing in legal terms, because... drum-roll... it was not done in conjunction with a legal process. He could not claim any rights to the child, nor could he stop paying if the test proved he was not the father. Only by going through the legal system could he do any of those and in doing so a new paternity test would most likely be ordered.

Now I may not know all the laws of all countries, but if you knew even a little about the law, then you would know that most basic laws in the western industrialized world are the same and often based on basic logic.

The fact that you and Jamesrage still dodge the basic facts on this issue only shows that the motivation has to be more than a disagreement with the law it self, and the only thing that comes to mind is the fact that it happens in France.. because as everyone knows.. Americans have high animosity towards France and the French. What do I base this on? Oh maybe that Germany has the exact same rules and has had them for years, and yet some how that is not a problem?

Face it, what this is about is a ban on secret paternity tests... without the consent of both parties involved. And you and jamesrage have yet to even comment why this is wrong and have instead used have arsed attempted to justify your views by claiming it is the right of the father to know if the kid is his... and this law some how forces men to pay for kids that are not his... without you guys providing proof of course of such a state..

You are the one is a failure and who is resorting to personal attacks.People disagree with this idiotic law therefore you resort to accusing those of us who disagree with the law of hating french people, then you pretend to know the law in every country.

 

[PeteEU]

You are the one is a failure and who is resorting to personal attacks.People disagree with this idiotic law therefore you resort to accusing those of us who disagree with the law of hating french people, then you pretend to know the law in every country.

Then explain why you think it is idiotic......

 

[Northern Light]

Not sure I understand the reasoning behind it. Yes, I agree that parenthood is societal and not biological, and that works great if the child is raised by a willing step-parent. But what happens if you are a single parent and need to prove parenthood to get that additional support? France is basically saying that children aren't entitled to support by virtue of biology, but rather sheer parental committment. So what's to stop a current parent from walking out and saying "I'm not a parent anymore"? Not that I have a problem with that, but children need to at least be financially supported if nothing else. Seems like a lot of kids might get shafted by this law.

And anyway, now that biology isn't a factor, a lot of single parents are just going to lie and claim that someone committed support to their children when they didn't. At least the biological route has accuracy and verifiability. Without that, it can only be based on people's say so. France is just shifting it from one standard of evidence to another, and the one they've shifted it to is folly.

As I understand it, the ban only in place if both parties do not agree. So if the woman wants a paternity test then she has to get the permission of the man and visa versa.. what is wrong with that? Privacy is involved after all.

Last time I checked it's not legal to test a person's DNA sample without them knowing, so their permission was already needed in the first place.

I don't see what's wrong with letting individuals decide if they want to use this technology or not. France is unnecessarily removing people's freedom to choose.

 

[PeteEU]

Last time I checked it's not legal to test a person's DNA sample without them knowing, so their permission was already needed in the first place.

Oh? But it is legal in the US.. you can get DNA test kits at your local drug store.

I don't see what's wrong with letting individuals decide if they want to use this technology or not. France is unnecessarily removing people's freedom to choose.

And no on is preventing them from doing a DNA test if they both agree. What the law is preventing, just like the German law, is that one party unilaterally without the consent and knowledge of the other party.. goes out and gets a DNA test.

DNA tests are not banned if all involved agree or a court orders them.... but that fact seems to blow past the anti-French crowd here..

 

[Northern Light]

DNA tests are not banned if all involved agree or a court orders them.... but that fact seems to blow past the anti-French crowd here..

Thanks for the clarification. I actually agree with this law.

I do hope that the court reserves the right to order paternity testing though in the case of deliquent parents.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- And no on is preventing them from doing a DNA test if they both agree. What the law is preventing, just like the German law, is that one party unilaterally without the consent and knowledge of the other party.. goes out and gets a DNA test --

Didn't realise this law was already in the UK (from 2006) and Australia was (in 2009) considering following up.

I'm not sure about it - I know in the UK if you've been paying CSA and discover that a child is not yours that you get all your money back but how much of this and other similar measures in the UK are more about making sure someone pays the child benefit and child support bill than about privacy and doing things without the knowledge of the father.

 

[jamesrage]

Then explain why you think it is idiotic......

I already explained why it is idiotic.A man should not the mother's permission to test his own DNA with the child that is allegedly his to see if he actually the father.There shouldn't be a need for a court order to do so.It is not a violation of the mother's privacy.