Parts, Prices and Planned Parenthood's Logic Loop

[minnie616]

Thank you Minnie, that is what I've been saying.
The money paid for the abortion, NOT for the culling of the "products".

The "products" that are harvested, since they were not specifically sought, will be random as well as a cost-free byproduct of the abortion.

So why are they priced differently when sold?

The tissue is not sold . It is recovery of costs for handling of the tissue.
In fact PP cost recovery is about $30 to $100 a specimen.
By the way specimen means any or all tissue from each fetus.

The prices you saw on the price sheet in the videos were what the Stem Express or the ABR reps received .

 

[Brooks]

The tissue is not sold . It is recovery of costs for handling of the tissue.
In fact PP cost recovery is about $30 to $100 a specimen.
By the way specimen means any or all tissue from each fetus.

The prices you saw on the price sheet in the videos were what the Stem Express or the ABR reps received .

Now we get to the original point.
Why do some specimens cost more than three times what other specimens cost?

 

[minnie616]

Now we get to the original point.
Why do some specimens cost more than three times what other specimens cost?

A specimen is the entire contents of each abortion case.
I imagine the later the gestation the more valuable the specimen is to the research lab.

Perhaps you mean why are certain organs more valuable to research labs ?

 

[MMC]

Here is some more of their logic loop.....Comes with the 9th Video put out by CMP. This time they follow the money.




The latest video exposing Planned Parenthood hits at the “heart” of the abortion business – by following the money. The Center for Medical Progress (CMP) released a ninth investigative video September 1 revealing the “relationship” between Advanced Bioscience Resources, Inc. (ABR) and Planned Parenthood in harvesting aborted baby parts. Among three conversations caught on camera, ABR’s Perrin Larton highlighted a “really weird” loophole that let the government to buy aborted baby parts – and discussed how, during abortion, babies sometimes “just fell out.” According to CMP, ABR, as a tissue procurement company, has partnered with Planned Parenthood in obtaining aborted baby parts “longer than any other entity.” Founded in 1989 by CEO Linda Tracy, ABR has worked with “multiple” Planned Parenthood affiliates for 26 years.

The video showed undercover conversations with three different executives: Dr. Katharine Sheehan, former medical director of Planned Parenthood of the Pacific Southwest (PPPS), Perrin Larton, Procurement Manager for ABR, and Cate Dyer, CEO of rival tissue company StemExpress. In the footage, Sheehan detailed PPPS’s “relationship” with ABR to actors posing as tissue buyers. “We’ve been using them for over 10 years” and “just kind of renegotiated the contract,” she said. “They’re doing… the big collection for government-level collections and things like that.” When an actor advertised, “We return a portion of our fees to the clinics,” Sheehan affirmed, “Right, get a toe in and make it, make a pro – alright.” In conversations with ABR’s Larton, an actor asked about the history on tissue research tissue. “And you know what the really weird thing is? Embryonic [tissue], there’s still a lot of controversy about that,” Larton said. “But then, fetal [tissue] kind of got lost in the mix.”

According to Dyer, CMP said, ABR would pay an “advisor fee” to a clinic executive in order to maintain an “exclusive right” to obtain aborted baby parts at a given location. “There’s like, well enough known,” said Dyer in the video, that “for a long time there were some certain clinics that because they had paid advisors that were sitting on boards for these clinics, that were also an advisor to ABR, you were just never going to go anywhere with them, you know what I mean?” The video, following last week’s footage of Dyer laughing over shipping baby heads, is part of CMP’s years-long investigative study into Planned Parenthood, “Human Capital.”.....snip~

NewsBusters: Ninth Planned Parenthood Video: ‘Really Weird’ Loophole Let Government Buy ‘Fetal Tissue’
Latest Posts | NewsBusters...

 

[Brooks]

A specimen is the entire contents of each abortion case.
I imagine the later the gestation the more valuable the specimen is to the research lab.

Perhaps you mean why are certain organs more valuable to research labs ?

Exactly!! You nailed it!!

You are talking about the economic rule of supply and demand, and you describe it perfectly.
However, PP is not supposed to make any money on the "products".
The way you (or was it "year2late) described it to me was that the money they get is only to cover their costs for handling.

So, how is it then that they get more money for "products" that are more valuable to the research lab?

 

[Removable Mind]

Exactly!! You nailed it!!

You are talking about the economic rule of supply and demand, and you describe it perfectly.
However, PP is not supposed to make any money on the "products".
The way you (or was it "year2late) described it to me was that the money they get is only to cover their costs for handling.

So, how is it then that they get more money for "products" that are more valuable to the research lab?

I can tell you don't watch many info commercials, Mr. Brooks. If you have - then you know that it goes something like, "JUST PLACE YOUR ORDER NOW AND RECEIVE YOUR FREE PRODUCT (as you like to refer to body parts) and only pay "Shipping and Handling".

Isn't this kind of what's gong on?

If there happens to be a 24 week old fetus available - "intact" - wouldn't it stand to reason that it might take more skilled efforts and handling to ensure that body organs are properly removed "without out damage" and it might possibly cost a bit for transporting such body parts to research companies.

So far all I see is $30 bucks here...$50 bucks there...and sometimes even a whopping $100 bucks that's been established "handling" type fees. And apparently it's been a long time practice.

But on a more serious note, Mr Brooks: Is PP making money your only objection? Or is there a moral or ethical issue being weighed that you find particularly disturbing?

I guess I might be referring to some believing that PP is actually more like a body parts factory - that encourages women to get abortions so that they can procure more body parts. And some believe that live fetuses are taken from the womb and while they're still living - have body parts removed and quickly transported to high paying research facilities.

There's not a nonprofit in existence that doesn't make money. In fact, some types of nonprofits "can legally make profits" under IRS rules. Those profits still are subject specific regulations, but non-the-less, they can be made. Now I don't personally know if PP qualifies, but who knows? It might be possible.

If PP is acting within the law - then :shrug: .... If they aren't then there will probably consequences, but not necessarily impacting all operations or in every state.

How would you handle this issue if you were CEO of Planned Parenthood? Well, meaning how would you handle the policy end of PP that relate to fetal tissue disposal or making it available to research companies?

 

[minnie616]

Exactly!! You nailed it!!

You are talking about the economic rule of supply and demand, and you describe it perfectly.
However, PP is not supposed to make any money on the "products".
The way you (or was it "year2late) described it to me was that the money they get is only to cover their costs for handling.

So, how is it then that they get more money for "products" that are more valuable to the research lab?

And Planned Parenhood is only recovering costs per specimen. It is the fetal tissue reps who are paid different prices for each organ.
Why? Because the tissue reps ( the stem Express employees and the ABR employees ) are the paid employees not Planned Parenthood.

 

[sangha]

Exactly!! You nailed it!!

No, she asked a question, and a question is not an answer. You are playing word games as if catching someone with pedantry somehow changes the facts.

The difference in costs. For example, if the tissue procurement company had a representative on site, then PP would charge them the costs associated with the space at the clinic dovoted to that rep, but no transport or shipping fees because the rep would handle that. If there was no rep, then PP would have to do the processing, storing and shipping and would charge to cover those costs. In addition, depending on where the tissue was shipped to, transportation costs would vary because, as anyone with half a brain knows, it costs more to ship things the farther away they are going.

Also, different tissues require different handling, resulting in differing costs to PP.

All of this was made clear in CMP's tapes. The PP representatives discuss this several times. If you want to talk about what actually happened, I suggest you first learn what actually happened.

 

[Removable Mind]

According to the law, an abortion procedure cannot be altered for any reason except to customize it to the client’s specific clinical needs.

The “products” that result from the procedure, which must be inadvertent and random, will then be chilled and shipped on ice.

So why do some abortion procedure “products” cost considerably more than others?

Mr. Brooks, the follow is a list of procedures for medical abortions.

But for reading them, I do have to ask you: "According to who's law (or what statutory jurisdiction), which demands that abortion procedures can't be altered for any reason "EXCEPT" to customize it to the client's specific clinical needs?" It this a federal law of some kind that overrides a state's jurisdiction?

I would have to believe that each state include in their respective abortion statutes that it's a physician's decision as to what a client's specific clinical needs are? Yes? No? So that's a legal liability on the doc. What motive would there be for PP doctors to engage in a body parts - when there's no evidence of personal gain. It cost what, maybe 300K to 400K to become a doctor?

What would be the true payoff for these doctors? It'd have to be a hell of a lot to jeopardize one's medical license over what's claimed to be only $30 to $100 per fetal tissue transaction. Yes? No?

The types of abortion procedures performed during the first trimester are:

Methotrexate & Misoprostol (MTX): a medical abortion procedure used up to the first seven weeks of pregnancy. This medication combination is not as commonly used in the U.S. with the availability of mifepristone, which works more effectively for this use.

Mifepristone and Misoprostol: a medical abortion procedure used up to the first seven to nine weeks of pregnancy. It can also be referred to as RU-486, the abortion pill, and mifeprex.

Manual Vacuum Aspiration (MVA): a procedure used as early as 3 -12 weeks since the last period. Considered less invasive with only a local anesthesia being used on the cervix.

Aspiration: a surgical abortion procedure used to terminate pregnancy up to 16 weeks from the last period. It can also be referred to as suction curettage, dilation and curettage (D & C) or vacuum aspiration.

What abortion procedures are used during the second trimester?

*** Medication-based abortion procedures are not an option during the second trimester.

The types of abortion procedures performed during the second trimester are:

Dilation & Curettage (D & C): a surgical abortion procedure used to terminate a pregnancy up to 16 weeks gestation. It is also referred to as suction curettage or vacuum aspiration.

Dilation & Evacuation (D & E): a surgical abortion procedure used to terminate a pregnancy after 16 weeks gestation.

Induction Abortion: a rarely performed surgical procedure where salt water, urea, or potassium chloride is injected into the amniotic sac; prostaglandins are inserted into the vagina, and pitocin is injected intravenously.

What abortion procedures are used during the third trimester?

Third trimester or late term abortions are not legal in a number of states except in certain medical situations. The time frame referred to as late term is often based on when a baby is considered “viable” (able to survive outside the womb). However, the point of “viability” is a grey area in many medical communities.

Most medical communities establish 24 weeks gestation, the later part of the second trimester, as the earliest time of viability. Therefore, the availability of any procedure used in the third trimester is based on the laws of that state.


The procedures that can be done in the third trimester include:

Induction Abortion: a rarely done surgical procedure where salt water, urea, or potassium chloride is injected into the amniotic sac; prostaglandins are inserted into the vagina and pitocin is injected intravenously.

Dilation and Extraction: a surgical abortion procedure used to terminate a pregnancy after 21 weeks of gestation. This procedure is also known as D & X, Intact D & X, Intrauterine Cranial Decompression and Partial Birth Abortion.

Last Updated: 5/2015


Abortion Procedures During First, Second and Third Trimester

 

[MMC]

With what was said in the 9th video. In following the money. Some are mentioning how Rico Laws would apply. What do you think?




The Racketeering Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act is a group of federal laws passed by the United States Congress in 1970 to deal with organized racketeering activity. RICO law is specifically directed at individuals or organizations involved in systematic, long-term illegal activities. It increases criminal penalties and allows civil claims to be pursued by injured parties against individuals, businesses or groups for actions taken as part of a criminal organization. An individual can be charged with racketeering under RICO statutes if, within a 10-year time frame as part of a criminal enterprise, he or she commits two crimes from a list of 35 detailed in the act.

Of the 35 crimes that form the body of RICO law, eight are state crimes and 27 are federal. Bribery, gambling, murder, arson, extortion, prostitution, counterfeiting, drug dealing, acts of terrorism and kidnapping are among the 35 crimes. It also is possible to prosecute white-collar crimes under RICO law. Embezzlement and obstruction of justice appear on the list, as do mail, wire, bankruptcy and securities fraud.

The RICO Act originally was legislated to prosecute the Mafia and others involved in organized crime, but over time, the definition of what constitutes racketeering activity has expanded. Consequently, the application of RICO law has broadened to include a variety of individuals, organizations and activities. Among other enterprises, RICO law has been applied to drug cartels, street gangs, corrupt police departments, political parties, protest groups, terrorist organizations, corporations, managed care companies, bankers and insurance and securities firms.....snip~

What is Rico Law? (with pictures)





https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-96

 

[Brooks]

If there happens to be a 24 week old fetus available - "intact" - wouldn't it stand to reason that it might take more skilled efforts and handling to ensure that body organs are properly removed "without out damage" and it might possibly cost a bit for transporting such body parts to research companies.

First, thank you for responding.
Everything you have said is completely true, but the problem is that the abortion itself is already paid for. Any extra cost for a more ginger removal IS NOT part of the cost of the "handling" of the parts. THAT cost was covered by the abortion payment.
Therefore, the only "handling" costs would be once the "products" have been completely removed from the body.
Why are kidneys $30.00 and an intact specimen more than three times more expensive?
The difference in "handling" would consist of the doctor being more careful and maybe a somewhat larger container. There is no way that would be more than 3 times more expensive.
That has been my point all along.
The difference in price has to do with supply and demand which CANNOT be part of this - by law.

But on a more serious note, Mr Brooks: Is PP making money your only objection? Or is there a moral or ethical issue being weighed that you find particularly disturbing?

I admit to an anti-abortion bias but even without that bias I am objectively bothered that they are breaking the law.

I guess I might be referring to some believing that PP is actually more like a body parts factory - that encourages women to get abortions so that they can procure more body parts. And some believe that live fetuses are taken from the womb and while they're still living - have body parts removed and quickly transported to high paying research facilities.

I don't subscribe to that.

There's not a nonprofit in existence that doesn't make money. In fact, some types of nonprofits "can legally make profits" under IRS rules. Those profits still are subject specific regulations, but non-the-less, they can be made. Now I don't personally know if PP qualifies, but who knows? It might be possible.

I'm so glad you said this. A not-for-profit only means that a donor can write off a donation, they qualify for tax dollars and they are performing one of seven specific categories of service.
I have NO problem with ANY non-profit making a profit, all non-profits do. In reality, if anyone is drawing a salary, they are making a profit.

If PP is acting within the law - then :shrug: .... If they aren't then there will probably consequences, but not necessarily impacting all operations or in every state.

We probably disagree a little bit here. They are breaking the law but that doesn't mean there will be consequences. No, transgression and punishment are not necessarily linked.

How would you handle this issue if you were CEO of Planned Parenthood? Well, meaning how would you handle the policy end of PP that relate to fetal tissue disposal or making it available to research companies?

Wow, I wasn't expecting that question.
I would be more careful about the law that Minnie quoted. If these parts are iced and then picked up, there are practically no handling costs no I would charge a commensurate fee - practically nothing.

 

[Brooks]

And Planned Parenhood is only recovering costs per specimen. It is the fetal tissue reps who are paid different prices for each organ.
Why? Because the tissue reps ( the stem Express employees and the ABR employees ) are the paid employees not Planned Parenthood.

This is what you said in a prior post:
"In fact PP cost recovery is about $30 to $100 a specimen."
Define the "recovery" process.

I don't want to re-write my prior post so please read it if you don't mind.
Why is there such a big difference in their handling costs?

 

[Brooks]

No, she asked a question, and a question is not an answer. You are playing word games as if catching someone with pedantry somehow changes the facts.

The difference in costs. For example, if the tissue procurement company had a representative on site, then PP would charge them the costs associated with the space at the clinic dovoted to that rep, but no transport or shipping fees because the rep would handle that. If there was no rep, then PP would have to do the processing, storing and shipping and would charge to cover those costs. In addition, depending on where the tissue was shipped to, transportation costs would vary because, as anyone with half a brain knows, it costs more to ship things the farther away they are going.

Also, different tissues require different handling, resulting in differing costs to PP.

All of this was made clear in CMP's tapes. The PP representatives discuss this several times. If you want to talk about what actually happened, I suggest you first learn what actually happened.

FIRST, things get ugly when someone takes a tone. It's so unnecessary. Phrases like "as anyone with half a brain knows" will start a fight or get you on ignore.
Look how your 2 kindred spirits on this thread respond.

Your above argument is based on specific scenarios (the presence or non-presence of a rep). Is there anything we can reference about that so we can discuss it?

 

[Brooks]

Mr. Brooks, the follow is a list of procedures for medical abortions.

But for reading them, I do have to ask you: "According to who's law (or what statutory jurisdiction), which demands that abortion procedures can't be altered for any reason "EXCEPT" to customize it to the client's specific clinical needs?" It this a federal law of some kind that overrides a state's jurisdiction?

PUBLIC LAW 103-43; JUNE 10, 1993
NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH REVITALIZATION ACT OF 1993
TITLE I - GENERAL PROVISIONS REGARDING TITLE IV
of PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE ACT
Subtitle A - Research Freedom
PART II - RESEARCH ON TRANSPLANTATION OF FETAL TISSUE
SEC. 111. ESTABLISHMENT OF AUTHORITIES.
Hat tip to Minnie.

I would have to believe that each state include in their respective abortion statutes that it's a physician's decision as to what a client's specific clinical needs are? Yes? No? So that's a legal liability on the doc. What motive would there be for PP doctors to engage in a body parts - when there's no evidence of personal gain. It cost what, maybe 300K to 400K to become a doctor?

There seems to be an overriding federal authority.
Also, PP getting this income would be more of a corporate transgression than a doctor getting "personal gain".

What would be the true payoff for these doctors? It'd have to be a hell of a lot to jeopardize one's medical license over what's claimed to be only $30 to $100 per fetal tissue transaction. Yes? No?

I don't think the monetary gain goes directly to the doctor.
The motivation is what everyone's motivation is in corporate America - an attaboy and promotion.
Also, the employee probably isn't setting the price.

 

[sangha]

FIRST, things get ugly when someone takes a tone. It's so unnecessary. Phrases like "as anyone with half a brain knows" will start a fight or get you on ignore.
Look how your 2 kindred spirits on this thread respond.

Your above argument is based on specific scenarios (the presence or non-presence of a rep). Is there anything we can reference about that so we can discuss it?

Yes, the actual tapes!!!

All of this was discussed on the CMP tapes. The people from PP go into detail about the various costs (above the costs of the abortion itself) involved in processing, storing, and shipping the tissues.

You can lecture me all you want about tone, but I wasn't the one who is accussing others of commiting crimes while demonstrating a vast lack of knowledge of the actual facts. It is the height of hypocrisy for you to lecture anyone about tone after the reprehensible and unfounded claims you've made.

In addition, if you want to have respectful discussion, you have to listen to what others say. You seem to be ignoring or failing to understand about half of what is said to you. For example, you just said "Your above argument is based on specific scenarios (the presence or non-presence of a rep)" even though that was just one of several factors that affect PP's costs. I also mentioned that, if there isn't a rep onsite at PP, then PP's costs will also be affected by how far they have to ship the tissues.

If you are finding the discussion less than respectful, you should consider the possibility that it is you who is being disrespectful.

Or you can figuratively run away by putting me on ignore. Either way, I will continue to rebut you when you make such outlandish claims. The only difference is you won't be able to respond (or even see) to my posts. All you gain is the false comfort of thinking you haven't been rebutted and you save the effort of taking the time to actually educate yourself as to the facts by watching the tapes.

 

[Brooks]

Yes, the actual tapes!!!All of this was discussed on the CMP tapes. The people from PP go into detail about the various costs (above the costs of the abortion itself) involved in processing, storing, and shipping the tissues.

Here is the transcript of the conversation with Doctor Mary Gatter, utterer of the infamous "Lamborghini" comment, former president of the Planned Parenthood Medical Directors’ Council until 2014 and now works in a leadership and advisory capacity at the local and national level of the organization.
In this transcript they openly discuss 3 different prices for "products" with no mention of the presence of reps or other factors altering the price.

Buyer: What would you expect for intact tissue? What sort of compensation?
Gatter: Well why don’t you start by telling me what you’re used to paying.
Buyer: Okay. I don’t think so. I’d like to hear, I would like to know, what would make you happy. What would work for you?
Gatter: Well, you know in negotiations the person who throws out the figure first is at a loss, right? So [laughs]
Buyer: No, I don’t look at it that way. I know, you want to play that game, I get it.
Gatter: I don’t want to play games, I just don’t want to lowball, because I’m used to low things from—
Buyer: You know what? If you lowball, I’ll act pleasantly surprised and you’ll know it’s a lowball. What I want to know is, what would work for you.
Don’t lowball it, tell me what you really—
Gatter: Okay. $75 a specimen.
Buyer: Oh. That’s way too low.
Gatter: Okay.
Buyer: And that’s, really, that’s way too low. I don’t, I want to keep you happy.
Gatter: I was going to say $50, because I know places that did $50, too. But see we don’t, we’re not in it for the money, and we don’t want to be in a position of being accused of selling tissue, and stuff like that.
On the other hand, there are costs associated with the use of our space, and that kind of stuff, so what were you thinking about?
Buyer: Exactly. Way higher than that.
Gatter: Mhm.
Buyer: So I’d like to start at around $100.
Gatter: Okay. Now this is for tissue that you actually take, not just tissue that the person volunteers but you can’t find anything, right?
Buyer: Exactly. What is, what we can use, what is intact. So that’s why I’m saying no, don’t lowball, I want you to be happy and—

Doctor Gatter uses the word "negotiation". If this were merely about "processing, storing, and shipping the tissues", Doctor Gatter would have walked in and said "Hello, this will cost $37.87. Let's order lunch.
Instead, she NEGOTIATES the price.

Clearly, this is not solely about handling costs.
That is against the law

 

[year2late]

So in the real world, are shipping and handling prices negotiated?

In the real word are you paying exactly what handling costs the company?

Real world example.

I order a 2 pound item that fits exactly into a box and pay $14.95 shipping and handling.

I order a fragile 2 pound item from the same place and pay $14.95 shipping and handling. They had to encase the fragile item in a much larger box, wrap with bubble wrap and encase with peanuts.

Why did they both cost the same?

There seems to be some thought that Planned Parenthood should know the exact cost to the company for each and every specimen. When that is not a real world expectation.

And again, it is not "profit" - Planned Parenthood is a non profit and the money would go to fund its many endeavors - prevention of abortion through birth control, cancer screening, pre-cancer treatments, STD screens and treatment, counselling. There are no investors getting rich.

 

[RamFel]

Bb

This is the law from your post:
(ii) no alteration of the timing, method, or procedures used to terminate the pregnancy was made solely for the purposes of obtaining the tissue

This means that NOTHING about the way the procedure was administered should have been done for the sake of obtaining a desired "product".
Therefore, there should be no higher costs associated with a more complicated removal of "products".

The words "inadvertent" and "random" were my own to describe how "products" would be successfully obtained if the procedure is done legally.
There can be NO intentional procedural adjustments for the sake of specific procurement.
Therefore, there should be no higher costs associated with a more complicated removal of "products".

This is all crazy talk. Instead of talking about this dumb law, you should all discuss the termination of abortion! You all sound like clucking chicken Hitlers!

SHAME ON YOU ALL

 

[sangha]

Here is the transcript of the conversation with Doctor Mary Gatter, utterer of the infamous "Lamborghini" comment, former president of the Planned Parenthood Medical Directors’ Council until 2014 and now works in a leadership and advisory capacity at the local and national level of the organization.
In this transcript they openly discuss 3 different prices for "products" with no mention of the presence of reps or other factors altering the price.

Buyer: What would you expect for intact tissue? What sort of compensation?
Gatter: Well why don’t you start by telling me what you’re used to paying.
Buyer: Okay. I don’t think so. I’d like to hear, I would like to know, what would make you happy. What would work for you?
Gatter: Well, you know in negotiations the person who throws out the figure first is at a loss, right? So [laughs]
Buyer: No, I don’t look at it that way. I know, you want to play that game, I get it.
Gatter: I don’t want to play games, I just don’t want to lowball, because I’m used to low things from—
Buyer: You know what? If you lowball, I’ll act pleasantly surprised and you’ll know it’s a lowball. What I want to know is, what would work for you.
Don’t lowball it, tell me what you really—
Gatter: Okay. $75 a specimen.
Buyer: Oh. That’s way too low.
Gatter: Okay.
Buyer: And that’s, really, that’s way too low. I don’t, I want to keep you happy.
Gatter: I was going to say $50, because I know places that did $50, too. But see we don’t, we’re not in it for the money, and we don’t want to be in a position of being accused of selling tissue, and stuff like that.
On the other hand, there are costs associated with the use of our space, and that kind of stuff, so what were you thinking about?
Buyer: Exactly. Way higher than that.
Gatter: Mhm.
Buyer: So I’d like to start at around $100.
Gatter: Okay. Now this is for tissue that you actually take, not just tissue that the person volunteers but you can’t find anything, right?
Buyer: Exactly. What is, what we can use, what is intact. So that’s why I’m saying no, don’t lowball, I want you to be happy and—

Doctor Gatter uses the word "negotiation". If this were merely about "processing, storing, and shipping the tissues", Doctor Gatter would have walked in and said "Hello, this will cost $37.87. Let's order lunch.
Instead, she NEGOTIATES the price.

If you want to have a respectful discussion, you should avoid making up daffynitions for words. The word "negotiation" does not mean what you seem to think it means

Negotiation | Definition of negotiation by Merriam-Webster

a formal discussion between people who are trying to reach an agreement : an act of negotiating

Nowhere does the real definition of the word require the discussion to be about a for-profit sale of goods. They were trying to reach an agreement, so the word "negotiation" perfectly describes what was going on and does not, in any way, imply that tissues were being sold.

Also, you completely ignored part of what Gatter said

I was going to say $50, because I know places that did $50, too. But see we don’t, we’re not in it for the money, and we don’t want to be in a position of being accused of selling tissue, and stuff like that.
On the other hand, there are costs associated with the use of our space, and that kind of stuff, so what were you thinking about?

You were asking about evidence about whether things like the use of space results in PP incurring costs to process the tissues was discussed and then you completely ignored the PROOF that such things were discussed. If you feel this discussion has been less than respectful, you should consider the possibility that you are somewhat to blame for that by not respectfully considering all the evidence - including evidence that contradicts your own opinions. You can't just ignore what has been said (which is disrespectful) and then expect others to treat you with respect

Clearly, this is not solely about handling costs.
That is against the law

Again, please stop ignoring half of what is said and making stuff up. It is extremely rude of you to do so.

Nowhere did I say it was solely about handling costs. I clearly and explicitly stated that there were several issues relating to PP's costs, including processing the tissue, storing the tissue, etc. So why did you ignore that and then make up some fiction about how this is "solely about handling costs"? Is that your idea of being respectful?

 

[Brooks]

So in the real world, are shipping and handling prices negotiated?
In the real word are you paying exactly what handling costs the company?

What you say is true, however, in this case there is a law and a claim saying you cover costs. Period.
If the "handling" of a fixed item is negotiated (and in their discussion they weren't talking about multiple options of items) that means the higher price is MORE than you actually needed to cover costs.
That is against the law.

And again, it is not "profit" - Planned Parenthood is a non profit and the money would go to fund its many endeavors - prevention of abortion through birth control, cancer screening, pre-cancer treatments, STD screens and treatment, counselling. There are no investors getting rich.

In this case, if they are actually charging more than the handling costs them it is, by definition, profit.
Also, "non-profit" is a governmental phrase describing rules for categorization. If the organization pays salaries, they are making money.
Even one of your kindred spirits on this thread isn't bothered by acknowledging that.
It's not a criticism of Planned Parenthood, it's just a rule that every NFP company works within.

 

[Brooks]

Bb

This is all crazy talk. Instead of talking about this dumb law, you should all discuss the termination of abortion! You all sound like clucking chicken Hitlers!

SHAME ON YOU ALL

I'm here because I'm enjoying this discussion with these people.
What's weird is that you're not enjoying it and are here anyway.

 

[Brooks]

If you want to have a respectful discussion, you should avoid making up daffynitions for words. The word "negotiation" does not mean what you seem to think it means
Nowhere does the real definition of the word require the discussion to be about a for-profit sale of goods. They were trying to reach an agreement, so the word "negotiation" perfectly describes what was going on

If what I wrote went that far over your head I blame myself for not being clearer.
I don't see where I posited a definition of negotiate. I used the word because Doctor Gatter used it.

and does not, in any way, imply that tissues were being sold.

No, Doctor Gatter going back and forth on the price implied that tissue was being sold.
Actually, it showed that.

Also, you completely ignored part of what Gatter said

The other things she said make a stronger case against her.
She doesn't say she doesn't want to sell tissue, she says she doesn't "want to be in a position of being accused" of selling tissue

You were asking about evidence about whether things like the use of space results in PP incurring costs to process the tissues was discussed and then you completely ignored the PROOF that such things were discussed.

Here's the problem with that - in that discussion, in which three different prices were quoted, they weren't talking about different options of items.
She didn't say "okay, fifty dollars is good, but if you also want to use our space it will be seventy-five, and for the extra that-kind-of stuff it will be an even hundred".
If she had said that your point would be a good one.
However, they were talking about ONE particular item and the price fluctuated between fifty and one hundred dollars. Therefore, the difference in price was based on haggling and NOT better services.

If you feel this discussion has been less than respectful, you should consider the possibility that you are somewhat to blame for that by not respectfully considering all the evidence - including evidence that contradicts your own opinions. You can't just ignore what has been said (which is disrespectful) and then expect others to treat you with respect
Again, please stop ignoring half of what is said and making stuff up. It is extremely rude of you to do so.

Show me specifically where I have done any of this and I will take care of any unanswered questions. I apologize in advance in anticipation of the flood of examples.

Nowhere did I say it was solely about handling costs. I clearly and explicitly stated that there were several issues relating to PP's costs, including processing the tissue, storing the tissue, etc. So why did you ignore that and then make up some fiction about how this is "solely about handling costs"? Is that your idea of being respectful?

Not that this probably matters, but I think those are all components of handling.
I mean, they'd better be because I think that's all PP says they charge for, handling costs.
So if you think any of these things DON'T fit the "handling" category, you are accusing them of charging for something they are not admitting to.

I have attempted to address everything in your post. I would appreciate if you employ similar effort.

 

[Brooks]

The people from PP go into detail about the various costs (above the costs of the abortion itself) involved in processing, storing, and shipping the tissues.

This might not matter in the overall discussion, but the "products" might be personally picked by representatives of the receiving company.
I don't think they "ship" these parts.

 

[minnie616]

This is what you said in a prior post:
"In fact PP cost recovery is about $30 to $100 a specimen."
Define the "recovery" process.

I don't want to re-write my prior post so please read it if you don't mind.
Why is there such a big difference in their handling costs?

I said recover some of the costs.

From Fact check:

Sawyer, July 20:In reality, $30-100 probably constitutes a loss for [Planned Parenthood]. [The costs associated with collection, processing, storage, and inventory and records management for specimens are very high. Most hospitals will provide tissue blocks from surgical procedures (ones no longer needed for clinical purposes, and without identity) for research, and cost recover for their time and effort in the range of $100-500 per case/block. In the realm of tissues for research $30-100 is completely reasonable and normal fee.

...
Jim Vaught, president of the International Society for Biological and Environmental Repositories and formerly the deputy director of the National Cancer Institute’s Office of Biorepositories and Biospecimen Research, told us in an email that “$30 to $100 per sample is a reasonable charge for clinical operations to recover their costs for providing tissue.” In fact, he said, the costs to a clinic are often much higher, but most operations that provide this kind of tissue have “no intention of fully recovering [their] costs, much less making a profit.”

Unspinning the Planned Parenthood Video

 

[year2late]

What you say is true, however, in this case there is a law and a claim saying you cover costs. Period.
If the "handling" of a fixed item is negotiated (and in their discussion they weren't talking about multiple options of items) that means the higher price is MORE than you actually needed to cover costs.
That is against the law.


In this case, if they are actually charging more than the handling costs them it is, by definition, profit.
Also, "non-profit" is a governmental phrase describing rules for categorization. If the organization pays salaries, they are making money.
Even one of your kindred spirits on this thread isn't bothered by acknowledging that.
It's not a criticism of Planned Parenthood, it's just a rule that every NFP company works within.

Actually, I do not think you are interpreting the law correctly. I think someone posted on an earlier thread that there clearly no need to cover the exact cost. The fee just has to be reasonable. Perhaps YOU do not think the costs are reasonable. I clearly do not want to know what an employee of PP has to do with the specimen and what facility cost they incur. Is there a company person there taking up office space? Are they using business facilities? I have no clue. But I believe the law says "reasonable" cost. It has never been an expectation of any business that I have ever dealt with that they cover the costs exactly. Why apply a different standard to Planned Parenthood. It is just plain hypocritical