Paris and the Fall of Rome

Jack Hays · Nov 20, 2015

Here is a provocative thesis presented by one of our most interesting historians. Is the Paris terrorist attack indicative of the coming Fall of Europe?

Paris and the Fall of Rome
Niall Ferguson, Boston Globe

I am not going to repeat what you have already read or heard. I am not going to say that what happened in Paris on Friday night was unprecedented horror, for it was not. I am not going to say that the world stands with France, for it is a hollow phrase. Nor am I going to applaud President Hollande’s pledge of “pitiless” vengeance, for I do not believe it. I am, instead, going to tell you that this is exactly how civilizations fall.

Here is how Edward Gibbon described the Goths’ sack of Rome in August 410 AD:
“In the hour of savage license, when every passion was inflamed, and every restraint was removed . . . a cruel slaughter was made of the Romans; and . . . the streets of the city were filled with dead bodies . . . Whenever the Barbarians were provoked by opposition, they extended the promiscuous massacre to the feeble, the innocent, and the helpless . . .”

Now, does that not describe the scenes we witnessed in Paris on Friday night?. . . .

Ancient Herald · Nov 20, 2015

What caused the fall of Rome was internal fighting over money and power and corruption by that.

this is an external attack.

if France and Europe get their act together and stop putting their head in the sand then they can fight this attack off.

But people are to concerned with bs to fight.

so more than likely they will fall to Islam.

Gardener · Nov 20, 2015

Jack Hays said:
Here is a provocative thesis presented by one of our most interesting historians. Is the Paris terrorist attack indicative of the coming Fall of Europe?

Paris and the Fall of Rome
Niall Ferguson, Boston Globe

I am not going to repeat what you have already read or heard. I am not going to say that what happened in Paris on Friday night was unprecedented horror, for it was not. I am not going to say that the world stands with France, for it is a hollow phrase. Nor am I going to applaud President Hollande’s pledge of “pitiless” vengeance, for I do not believe it. I am, instead, going to tell you that this is exactly how civilizations fall.

Here is how Edward Gibbon described the Goths’ sack of Rome in August 410 AD:
“In the hour of savage license, when every passion was inflamed, and every restraint was removed . . . a cruel slaughter was made of the Romans; and . . . the streets of the city were filled with dead bodies . . . Whenever the Barbarians were provoked by opposition, they extended the promiscuous massacre to the feeble, the innocent, and the helpless . . .”

Now, does that not describe the scenes we witnessed in Paris on Friday night?. . . .

My favorite quote on the subject is Toynbee's famous statement that cultures don't die by murder, but by suicide.

Considering that standing up for one's own culture is now considered racist while defending those who wish to destroy it is p.c., I'd say that suicide simply cannot come quickly enough for many people.

brothern · Nov 20, 2015

Jack Hays said:
Now, does that not describe the scenes we witnessed in Paris on Friday night?. . . .

The sack of a city that presumably took an army of 40,000 and resulted in probably 20,000 deaths and three days of looting and pillaging ...
Is the equivalent of 7 terrorists that got their hands on guns/explosives and were confronted by police within hours.

WTF?

No, that does not describe the scenes in Paris.

nota bene · Nov 20, 2015

Jack Hays said:
Here is a provocative thesis presented by one of our most interesting historians. Is the Paris terrorist attack indicative of the coming Fall of Europe?

Paris and the Fall of Rome
Niall Ferguson, Boston Globe

I am not going to repeat what you have already read or heard. I am not going to say that what happened in Paris on Friday night was unprecedented horror, for it was not. I am not going to say that the world stands with France, for it is a hollow phrase. Nor am I going to applaud President Hollande’s pledge of “pitiless” vengeance, for I do not believe it. I am, instead, going to tell you that this is exactly how civilizations fall.

Here is how Edward Gibbon described the Goths’ sack of Rome in August 410 AD:
“In the hour of savage license, when every passion was inflamed, and every restraint was removed . . . a cruel slaughter was made of the Romans; and . . . the streets of the city were filled with dead bodies . . . Whenever the Barbarians were provoked by opposition, they extended the promiscuous massacre to the feeble, the innocent, and the helpless . . .”

Now, does that not describe the scenes we witnessed in Paris on Friday night?. . . .

Thanks for posting this, Jack. Now I have only four more free articles at the Globe this month, but the read was worth it.

For those unfamiliar with Ferguson, here's the Wiki link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_Ferguson

joG · Nov 20, 2015

Jack Hays said:
Here is a provocative thesis presented by one of our most interesting historians. Is the Paris terrorist attack indicative of the coming Fall of Europe?

Paris and the Fall of Rome
Niall Ferguson, Boston Globe

I am not going to repeat what you have already read or heard. I am not going to say that what happened in Paris on Friday night was unprecedented horror, for it was not. I am not going to say that the world stands with France, for it is a hollow phrase. Nor am I going to applaud President Hollande’s pledge of “pitiless” vengeance, for I do not believe it. I am, instead, going to tell you that this is exactly how civilizations fall.

Here is how Edward Gibbon described the Goths’ sack of Rome in August 410 AD:
“In the hour of savage license, when every passion was inflamed, and every restraint was removed . . . a cruel slaughter was made of the Romans; and . . . the streets of the city were filled with dead bodies . . . Whenever the Barbarians were provoked by opposition, they extended the promiscuous massacre to the feeble, the innocent, and the helpless . . .”

Now, does that not describe the scenes we witnessed in Paris on Friday night?. . . .

I am more worried about the way their actions might affect our all lives.

Jack Hays · Nov 20, 2015

brothern said:
The sack of a city that presumably took an army of 40,000 and resulted in probably 20,000 deaths and three days of looting and pillaging ...
Is the equivalent of 7 terrorists that got their hands on guns/explosives and were confronted by police within hours.

WTF?

No, that does not describe the scenes in Paris.

". . . Let us be clear about what is happening. Like the Roman Empire in the early fifth century, Europe has allowed its defenses to crumble. As its wealth has grown, so its military prowess has shrunk, along with its self-belief. It has grown decadent in its shopping malls and sports stadiums. At the same time, it has opened its gates to outsiders who have coveted its wealth without renouncing their ancestral faith.

The distant shock to this weakened edifice has been the Syrian civil war, though it has been a catalyst as much as a direct cause for the great Völkerwanderung of 2015. As before, they have come from all over the imperial periphery — from North Africa, from the Levant, from South Asia — but this time they have come in their millions. . . . "

Higgins86 · Nov 20, 2015

Jack Hays said:
Here is a provocative thesis presented by one of our most interesting historians. Is the Paris terrorist attack indicative of the coming Fall of Europe?

Paris and the Fall of Rome
Niall Ferguson, Boston Globe

I am not going to repeat what you have already read or heard. I am not going to say that what happened in Paris on Friday night was unprecedented horror, for it was not. I am not going to say that the world stands with France, for it is a hollow phrase. Nor am I going to applaud President Hollande’s pledge of “pitiless” vengeance, for I do not believe it. I am, instead, going to tell you that this is exactly how civilizations fall.

Here is how Edward Gibbon described the Goths’ sack of Rome in August 410 AD:
“In the hour of savage license, when every passion was inflamed, and every restraint was removed . . . a cruel slaughter was made of the Romans; and . . . the streets of the city were filled with dead bodies . . . Whenever the Barbarians were provoked by opposition, they extended the promiscuous massacre to the feeble, the innocent, and the helpless . . .”

Now, does that not describe the scenes we witnessed in Paris on Friday night?. . . .

It wasn't unprecedented, a similar style attack took place in Mumbai.

gunner · Nov 20, 2015

nota bene said:
Thanks for posting this, Jack. Now I have only four more free articles at the Globe this month, but the read was worth it.

For those unfamiliar with Ferguson, here's the Wiki link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_Ferguson

I prefer the brains of the outfit, Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Jack Hays · Nov 20, 2015

Higgins86 said:
It wasn't unprecedented, a similar style attack took place in Mumbai.

There was no claim that it was unprecedented.

Higgins86 · Nov 20, 2015

Jack Hays said:
There was no claim that it was unprecedented.

yeh first line of the article

tosca1 · Nov 20, 2015

Gardener said:
My favorite quote on the subject is Toynbee's famous statement that cultures don't die by murder, but by suicide.

Considering that standing up for one's own culture is now considered racist while defending those who wish to destroy it is p.c., I'd say that suicide simply cannot come quickly enough for many people.

Add to that the dismal birth rate in comparison to another group's robust birth rate - indeed, suicide!

Higgins86 · Nov 20, 2015

Jack Hays said:
There was no claim that it was unprecedented.

apologies just re-read it

Riveroaks · Nov 20, 2015

Jack Hays said:
Here is a provocative thesis presented by one of our most interesting historians. Is the Paris terrorist attack indicative of the coming Fall of Europe?

Paris and the Fall of Rome
Niall Ferguson, Boston Globe

I am not going to repeat what you have already read or heard. I am not going to say that what happened in Paris on Friday night was unprecedented horror, for it was not. I am not going to say that the world stands with France, for it is a hollow phrase. Nor am I going to applaud President Hollande’s pledge of “pitiless” vengeance, for I do not believe it. I am, instead, going to tell you that this is exactly how civilizations fall.

Here is how Edward Gibbon described the Goths’ sack of Rome in August 410 AD:
“In the hour of savage license, when every passion was inflamed, and every restraint was removed . . . a cruel slaughter was made of the Romans; and . . . the streets of the city were filled with dead bodies . . . Whenever the Barbarians were provoked by opposition, they extended the promiscuous massacre to the feeble, the innocent, and the helpless . . .”

Now, does that not describe the scenes we witnessed in Paris on Friday night?. . . .

That was a short article. Not much went into the thinking about that.

I thought he was going to say that a thronging army of refugees is like an invasion of barbarians.

Europe is vulnerable again, no doubt, by the way.

But it was also vulnerable to Adolf and to the Kaiser and to Napoleon before. This is nothing new.

Jack Hays · Nov 20, 2015

Higgins86 said:
yeh first line of the article

Sorry, but the author says it was not unprecedented.

Jack Hays · Nov 20, 2015

Riveroaks said:
That was a short article. Not much went into the thinking about that.

I thought he was going to say that a thronging army of refugees is like an invasion of barbarians.

Europe is vulnerable again, no doubt, by the way.

But it was also vulnerable to Adolf and to the Kaiser and to Napoleon before. This is nothing new.

". . . The distant shock to this weakened edifice has been the Syrian civil war, though it has been a catalyst as much as a direct cause for the great Völkerwanderung of 2015. As before, they have come from all over the imperial periphery — from North Africa, from the Levant, from South Asia — but this time they have come in their millions. . . ."

gunner · Nov 20, 2015

This is pretty spot on:

"But it is also true that the majority of Muslims in Europe hold views that are not easily reconciled with the principles of our modern liberal democracies, including those novel notions we have about equality between the sexes and tolerance not merely of religious diversity but of nearly all sexual proclivities. And it is thus remarkably easy for a violent minority to acquire their weapons and prepare their assaults on civilization within these avowedly peace-loving communities."

Gardener · Nov 20, 2015

gunner said:
This is pretty spot on:

"But it is also true that the majority of Muslims in Europe hold views that are not easily reconciled with the principles of our modern liberal democracies, including those novel notions we have about equality between the sexes and tolerance not merely of religious diversity but of nearly all sexual proclivities. And it is thus remarkably easy for a violent minority to acquire their weapons and prepare their assaults on civilization within these avowedly peace-loving communities."

....and all the while with a good portion of that civilization believing in a perverse sort of moral relativism that refuses to distinguish between the two.

Chagos · Nov 20, 2015

Jack Hays said:
Here is a provocative thesis presented by one of our most interesting historians. Is the Paris terrorist attack indicative of the coming Fall of Europe?

Paris and the Fall of Rome
Niall Ferguson, Boston Globe

I am not going to repeat what you have already read or heard. I am not going to say that what happened in Paris on Friday night was unprecedented horror, for it was not. I am not going to say that the world stands with France, for it is a hollow phrase. Nor am I going to applaud President Hollande’s pledge of “pitiless” vengeance, for I do not believe it. I am, instead, going to tell you that this is exactly how civilizations fall.

Here is how Edward Gibbon described the Goths’ sack of Rome in August 410 AD:
“In the hour of savage license, when every passion was inflamed, and every restraint was removed . . . a cruel slaughter was made of the Romans; and . . . the streets of the city were filled with dead bodies . . . Whenever the Barbarians were provoked by opposition, they extended the promiscuous massacre to the feeble, the innocent, and the helpless . . .”

Now, does that not describe the scenes we witnessed in Paris on Friday night?. . . .

No, not at all. I returned from Paris two days ago and saw nothing of the sort.

Gibbons was an idiot anyway, he rarely got anything right.

That's not to say the sack of Rome by the Goths wasn't traumatic, it was simply standard procedure.

Higgins86 · Nov 20, 2015

gunner said:
This is pretty spot on:

"But it is also true that the majority of Muslims in Europe hold views that are not easily reconciled with the principles of our modern liberal democracies, including those novel notions we have about equality between the sexes and tolerance not merely of religious diversity but of nearly all sexual proclivities. And it is thus remarkably easy for a violent minority to acquire their weapons and prepare their assaults on civilization within these avowedly peace-loving communities."

We could be on the verge of an extremely violent era in Europe. The rise of ISIS and the success they are having with online recruitment completely changes the game for me and we are just not ready for it. Our governments, security and most importantly our populations have yet to see this threat. I don't know about you gunner but most of the TV, news, social media etc this week has been in support of Islam rather than the condemnation of Radical Islam. How many guardian articles have you seen this week asking the question " what is radicalizing the youth?". When the IRA did it we condemned it but now we condemn the wrong people.

Jack Hays · Nov 20, 2015

Chagos said:
No, not at all. I returned from Paris two days ago and saw nothing of the sort.

Gibbons was an idiot anyway, he rarely got anything right.

That's not to say the sack of Rome by the Goths wasn't traumatic, it was simply standard procedure.

". . . “Romans before the fall,” wrote Ward-Perkins in his “Fall of Rome,” “were as certain as we are today that their world would continue for ever substantially unchanged. They were wrong. We would be wise not to repeat their complacency.”

Poor, poor Paris. Killed by complacency."

Chagos · Nov 20, 2015

Jack Hays said:
". . . Let us be clear about what is happening. Like the Roman Empire in the early fifth century, Europe has allowed its defenses to crumble. As its wealth has grown, so its military prowess has shrunk, along with its self-belief. It has grown decadent in its shopping malls and sports stadiums. At the same time, it has opened its gates to outsiders who have coveted its wealth without renouncing their ancestral faith.

The distant shock to this weakened edifice has been the Syrian civil war, though it has been a catalyst as much as a direct cause for the great Völkerwanderung of 2015. As before, they have come from all over the imperial periphery — from North Africa, from the Levant, from South Asia — but this time they have come in their millions. . . . "

brandishing arms, the whole bloody lot of them and raping, pillaging and murdering ever since they crossed the Limes.

Ooops, sorry.

wrong century.

Chagos · Nov 20, 2015

Jack Hays said:
". . . “Romans before the fall,” wrote Ward-Perkins in his “Fall of Rome,” “were as certain as we are today that their world would continue for ever substantially unchanged. They were wrong.

I can assure you that Parisians, at least those I spoke to and they were many, think nothing of the sort.

We would be wise not to repeat their complacency.”

Poor, poor Paris. Killed by complacency."

criminal thugs whose delusional but impressionable minds weren't trapped by scientology in time.

Jack Hays · Nov 20, 2015

Chagos said:
I can assure you that Parisians, at least those I spoke to and they were many, think nothing of the sort. criminal thugs whose delusional but impressionable minds weren't trapped by scientology in time.

The essay is intended to be provocative.

Chagos · Nov 20, 2015

Jack Hays said:
The essay is intended to be provocative.

Aaaahhh.

:mrgreen:

Paris and the Fall of Rome

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