'Palestinian' ? (1 Viewer)

[Wessexman]

The Pals cannot get their land back? Was never their land to begin with. Land doesn't have nationalities. Land has things like titles and deeds. No title, no land. So simple.

Do you have anything constructive to add?

 

[Marc39]

Do you have anything constructive to add?

Yes, please open up a history book, so, you'll have a grasp on the subject matter.

 

[Wessexman]

Do you have anything constructive to add?

 

[Marc39]

Do you have anything constructive to add?

Yes, in addition to seriously in need of a basic education in Middle East affairs, do learn basic real estate law. People do not own land by osmosis. They come to own land through legal title. Pals who do not have legal title to land, do not own it. You also were unaware of the long history between Judea and Samaria and its Jewish population, so, nothing with you surpirses me. Do your homework!

 

[Wessexman]

Do you have anything constructive to add?

 

[Thorgasm]

Moderator's Warning:

Let's cut the trolling out. Everyone!

 

[Real Talk]

Actually, we are not that far apart in our visions.
We both want a Two state solution... we are talking at most a few percent of land

lul i agree..
Its just good cop bad cop.

 

[Real Talk]

You didn't answer the questions. What does your way offer the Palestinians positively at least in the medium term?

citizenship in the land their people are from.
If they play there cards right.

 

[Wessexman]

citizenship in the land their people are from.
If they play there cards right.

I know you said this. But you did not make show how it can be realistically be achieved.

 

[Real Talk]

I know you said this. But you did not make show how it can be realistically be achieved.

First u show that the palestinian arabs deserve to be able to migrate into israel proper. Through non violent disobediance to things like the security wall (in a non violently threatening manner).

You send women and children to scale the wall, and film it. And when they start shooting them, and arresting them u just keep it going. DOnt stop. Absorb the suffering.

Then, once youve done that you push for citizenship rights (surely also with proposals of constitutional reform guranteeing all religious freedom and equality before the law of all).

You follow the tradition of Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandella and the likes, untill the concience of Israel and the world can no longer justify the idea these people are forced to live in ghetto's next to their former homes.

Whats hapening to palestine is like if America tried to make antive Americans stay in the reservation.




But I dont know. Im only saying all this to be asking. To be honest, I dont have easy answers. No one does. Having easy answers would involve finding a way to convince 2 unreaosnable parties to act reasonably. All I know is violence on either side alone is extremely unlikely to achieve this. Non violent resistance si the way foward for the Palestinians.

But NOT capitulation to the status quo. The status quo is unaceptable.

 

[Wessexman]

First u show that the palestinian arabs deserve to be able to migrate into israel proper. Through non violent disobediance to things like the security wall (in a non violently threatening manner).

You send women and children to scale the wall, and film it. And when they start shooting them, and arresting them u just keep it going. DOnt stop. Absorb the suffering.

Then, once youve done that you push for citizenship rights (surely also with proposals of constitutional reform guranteeing all religious freedom and equality before the law of all).

You follow the tradition of Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandella and the likes, untill the concience of Israel and the world can no longer justify the idea these people are forced to live in ghetto's next to their former homes.

Whats hapening to palestine is like if America tried to make antive Americans stay in the reservation.




But I dont know. Im only saying all this to be asking. To be honest, I dont have easy answers. No one does. Having easy answers would involve finding a way to convince 2 unreaosnable parties to act reasonably. All I know is violence on either side alone is extremely unlikely to achieve this. Non violent resistance si the way foward for the Palestinians.

But NOT capitulation to the status quo. The status quo is unaceptable.

This is completely unrealistic, it also ignores the fact many don't want to share citizenship in an Israeli state but want their own. By pushing for it you ignore a more realistic outcome and do tend to reinforce the status quo by stopping movement in a realistic forward direction.

 

[Real Talk]

don't want to share citizenship in an Israeli state

It wouldnt be an Israelis tate anymore. The colonists would be the minority. Thats why u need the constitution, to make sure the minority dont get butraped.

 

[Wessexman]

It wouldnt be an Israelis tate anymore. The colonists would be the minority. Thats why u need the constitution, to make sure the minority dont get butraped.

Well aside from the obvious danger that would leave the Israeli in, at least based on current Arab feeling towards them, it still seems very unrealistic. Far better to try for something a little more realisable and not to prolong the status quo, if not make thing worth, waiting on dreams.

 

[Real Talk]

This is completely unrealistic, it also ignores the fact many don't want to share citizenship in an Israeli state but want their own. By pushing for it you ignore a more realistic outcome and do tend to reinforce the status quo by stopping movement in a realistic forward direction.

Your proposals are completely unrealistic and ignore the fact that the status quo is unaceptable to most palestinians. By pushing for the status quo, u merely reinforce the idea that justice can not be achieved through negotiation.

At least I admit I dont know how to make 2 groups of unreasonable people act reasonably.
But I know it will take something exceptional, and imo, probably something non violent.
So I look for non violent tactics that have been used in the past to help liberate opressed people against overwhelming odds. And they ALWAYS looked 'unrealistic'. But theyve worked.

 

[Real Talk]

at least based on current Arab feeling towards them

I think long term non violence could really alter this perception.

I mean when youve been kicking the **** out of someone for a decade, and they havnt hit back the whole time, u still gona be afraid to let him mvoe in next door and have a vote?

When apartheid in south africa was the norm, people thought if it were overturned that the whites would wake up with their throats slit. Theyd lose all their property etc. People were generally afraid of this. Even decent people. Afraid enough for many of these decent people to support apartheid, aggainst their ideals.

This perception was changed.
If someone told u before it was done that this could be achieved, they would be called 'unrealistic'. But it was, none the less, done.

Non violent resistance. Constitutional reform. Peace and reconciliation.
We are all people after all. We should be able to elarn to lvie side by side as grown ups. Instead of beefing as tribes.

 

[Wessexman]

Your proposals are completely unrealistic and ignore the fact that the status quo is unaceptable to most palestinians. By pushing for the status quo, u merely reinforce the idea that justice can not be achieved through negotiation.

At least I admit I dont know how to make 2 groups of unreasonable people act reasonably.
But I know it will take something exceptional, and imo, probably something non violent.
So I look for non violent tactics that have been used in the past to help liberate opressed people against overwhelming odds. And they ALWAYS looked 'unrealistic'. But theyve worked.

I don't push for the status quo, I push for the two state solution. It seems far more realistic. It doesn't rely on making the Israeli share their state and such but builds on what many in the international community have already called for and on the land the Palestinians already have. It is not a completely long term pipe-dream that ignores the current realities.

But anyway I think we have exhaustively argued about this. I think we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Real Talk]

I don't push for the status quo, I push for the two state solution. It seems far more realistic. It doesn't rely on making the Israeli share their state and such but builds on what many in the international community have already called for and on the land the Palestinians already have. It is not a completely long term pipe-dream that ignores the current realities.

But anyway I think we have exhaustively argued about this. I think we will have to agree to disagree.

The thing about the "2 state solution " is it doesnt adress any of Palestines real
needs. It is justa reinforcement of the status quo.
Israel legitimates its occupation in the international comunity. Palestine is elft with 2 ghetto's, and remains TOTALY vulnerable to Israeli agression, with no real military power counterweight.

What exactly changes?

 

[Apocalypse]

The thing about the "2 state solution " is it doesnt adress any of Palestines real
needs.

coughstatecough. :2razz:

 

[Real Talk]

coughstatecough. :2razz:

what does a state get them?
Whats to stop the Israelis besieging there prime ministers building and continuing to relly on the power discrepancy to dictate terms?

 

[Apocalypse]

what does a state get them?
Whats to stop the Israelis besieging there prime ministers building and continuing to relly on the power discrepancy to dictate terms?

A state would give them sovereignty. A state would give them everything they ever oh-so-desired for.
Wasn't it a state that the Palestinians always wanted?
If it wasn't a state, then what was it really?

 

[Mira]

The whole problem stems from the fact that the Arabs felt humiliated throughout the decades which led to the creation of Israel.

Call them as you wish, Arabs, Palestinians, Filistins, tribes, Danish or orangutans, it doesn't matter. I prefer to call them people.

The whole area of the Levant has been a scene of invasions and bloodshed throughout the centuries. There was a point when the maps were drawn, the other countries of the Levant got their independence and the area of Palestine was to be divided into two states in order to create Israel.

Nobody asked the Arabs if they agreed, nobody took their oppositon into consideration and when they resisted, they lost. Some still blame them for having resisted.Who wouldn't have ? Think about that for a second.

Things have become very ugly since then and I honestly don't see a way out of the conflict. I try to be optimstic sometimes, but the gaps have widened to an extend that I don't even think that the two people are able to even live side by side.

Israel is here now and it should stay. I cannot bring myself to call for a new genocide in order to repair the damage. But that doesn't change the fact that nobody listened to the people who were already there.

Call me a romantic, but this poem by Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwich is what best describes the Arab pride and weather we like it or not, Arabs identify themselves with this kind of literature.



Write Down,
I am an Arab,
My card number is 50,000,
I have eight children,
The ninth will come next summer,
Are you angry ?

Write Down,
I am an Arab,
I cut stone with comrade labourers,
I squeeze the rock,
To get a loaf,
To get a loaf,
To get a book,
For my eight children.
But I do not plead charity,
And I do not cringe
Under your sway.
Are you angry ?

Write down,
I am an Arab,
I am a name without a title,
Steadfast in a frenzied world.

My roots sink deep
Beyond my ages,
Beyond time.

I am a son of the plough.
Of humble peasant stock.
I live in a hut
Of reed and stalk.
The hair: Jet black.
The eyes: Brown.
My Arab headdress
Scratches intruding hands,
And I prefer a drip of oil and thyme.

And please write down
On top of all,
I hate nobody,
But when I starve
I eat the flesh of my marauders
Beware,
Beware my hunger,
Beware my wrath.

 

[Apocalypse]

The whole problem stems from the fact that the Arabs felt humiliated throughout the decades which led to the creation of Israel.

So Arab humiliation has led to the creation of Israel? How nice of you to say so. :roll:

Nobody asked the Arabs if they agreed

It wasn't their decision to make.
They didn't control Palestine and they weren't the only citizens of Palestine.
The ones who made the call are the British, and they decided to part the Mandate Palestine area into two Arab nations and one Jewish nation.

when they resisted, they lost

You mean, when they opened a war, they lost to the defenders.

Some still blame them for having resisted.Who wouldn't have ? Think about that for a second.

*Thinking about that for a second*... Nope, still blames them for starting a war.

Call me a romantic, but this poem by Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwich is what best describes the Arab pride and weather we like it or not, Arabs identify themselves with this kind of literature.

Yes, I know quite well of Darwich and his poems.

 

[Mira]

So Arab humiliation led to the creation of Israel? How nice of you to say so. :roll:
It wasn't their decision to make.
They didn't control Palestine and they weren't the only citizens of Palestine.
The ones who made the call are the British, and they decided to part the Mandate Palestine area to two Arab nations and one Jewish nation.
You mean, when they opened a war, they lost to the defenders.
*Thinking about that for a second*... Nope, still blames them for starting a war.
Yes, I know quite of Darwich and his poems.

No, the fact that Israel was created without ever taking into consideration the Arab opinion is humiliating.

You can deny the existence of a Palestinian people alltogether but the truth is that there were people living there and they considered themselves to be Arabs.

When Israel was created, or when Jewish immigrants began to pour in, did they not imagine that there will be a resistence by the people who inhabited that land? How were they planning to deal with it ?

 

[Real Talk]

A state would give them sovereignty. A state would give them everything they ever oh-so-desired for.
Wasn't it a state that the Palestinians always wanted?
If it wasn't a state, then what was it really?

Peace land respect and dignity.
Is what id want.
Sovereignty doesnt mean a lot in the face of Israeli force.

Im really done with you apocalypse
im sorry.

 

[Apocalypse]

No, the fact that Israel was created without ever taking into consideration the Arab opinion is humiliating.

You can deny the existence of a Palestinian people alltogether but the truth is that there were people living there and they considered themselves to be Arabs.

When Israel was created, or when Jewish immigrants began to pour in, did they not imagine that there will be a resistence by the people who inhabited that land? How were they planning to deal with it ?

There was no war declared by the Jews when the Arabs poured in with immigration. So why would there be any from the Arabs? Aren't we all equal?

And it's quite disappointing you refer to the Arabs as the "people who inhabited the land" as if the Jews weren't even there.