Palestinian poll: Support in Hamas drops

[gree0232]

okeSM:
Let me guess, you're out for a rise again?

How about something logical? How about instead of trying to stir something up, you try to solve something? oke

 

[Southern Man]

okeSM:
Let me guess, you're out for a rise again?

How about something logical? How about instead of trying to stir something up, you try to solve something? oke

The best way to solve the Palestinian issue is to have a war. Kill all the Hamas leaders and those who shoot at the IDF doing its job. *shrug*

 

[Radical Ron]

RR:
1. Hamas is not the only terrorist group in the world.

:agree

2. Violence may not be the best way to handle Hamas.

What is the alternative? Every time Israel uses diplomacy HAMAS turns around and shoots rockets at them (or they blow themselves up.)

How many Hamas members has Israel assassinated?

Not enough apparently

In the previous three years Israel has overtly been at war with Hamas twice. If the measure of this policy is the realtive strength of Hamas, then by all measures this policy is a failure.

Yes, it is a failure because HAMAS is still there.

a. A slight drop in polling approval at the cost of 1300 lives? That is definitely not worth the cost.

If Israel did not have to kill these people it would not. I mean they opened the borders during the bombing to let innocent people escape.

b. The assassinations have given all of Israel, the Palestinians, and indeed the larger world the impression that Hamas has tremendous strength and that Israel is about to be pushed into the ocean. That is clearly not the case.

Ummm..... right. That is not the case.

c. The harder Israel presses Hamas, the more ingrained they appear to be. Either the Palestinian people have legitimate grievances or they are brainwashed and like having Israeli soldiers trapsing through their fields and shooting at them (and it would take quite a bit of brainwashing to enjoy being shot at).

I'm not saying they have don't have legitimate grievances, but if they don't like Israeli soldiers ruining their fields and shooting at them maybe they should "elect" more inteligent leaders who won't throw them under the bus.

d. The embargo has crushed Gaza's economy. Now, Palestinians either work with or through Hamas, or they have no jobs and no way to support their families. This policy has only strengthened Hamas hand, and allowed it to ganer that strength without violence or confrontation.

Like I said, these people need to break of the shackles of their Islamofacist rulers.

So, lets take violence to its logical extreme. We have clearly not used enough violence to remove Hamas. As their battle plan clearly demonstrated in the last battle, it was to draw Israeli soldiers into the cities and fight an insurgency. This in turn would have lead to high-intensity clearing operations of Gazan cities and horrific loss of life for the Palestinians and not a few for Israel. After the clearence operations you must then work with a severely alienated Palestinian public, and the remnants of Hamas would continue to ambush and IED your forces, along with reinforcements from throughout the Arab world, for the next 10-15 years. This assumes you would be successful and that is be no means guaranteed.

This could be solved with regime change and expulsion of these agressors.

Hamas, would then be destroyed. As soon as Israel left, would there not just be another radical group that took its place? Hamas V2.0? Would the Palestinians have given up their desires for a Palestinian homeland?

Not if there was enough strength given to the new pro-Palestinian peace movement.

Are you willing to fight that war? To commit your economy to the expense and economic drain of a continuous counter-insurgency campaign. Are you willing to visit the homes of the familes of those whose sons would be lost in the fight? Are you ready for a concerted terror drive aimed at Israel, ebbing and flowing while you fight for the next 10-15 years?

Yes. Because it will make the world safer for our children. Jew and Muslim.

That is what you are advocating.

I know.

An interesting note, the current Hamas PM was once a moderate Palestinian. His brother died at the hands of Israeli soldiers, and shortly thereafter he joined Hamas. It would seem that killing all those years ago bred Israel a much larger problem today (a lesson worth noting). Instead of killing, and regardless of fault, Israel could try apologizing for the death and express regret that an honorable man died.

Why? Did they do the same for the Israelis who were killed?

An apology costs nothing and results in no blood shed. It acknowledges the pain and loss that too many Palestinians know all to intimately. It treats the Palestinians as human beings with feelings as opposed to emotionless targets.

Sure it does, but your making it seem like the Israelis have had nothing bad ever happen to them.

Will our pride drive us to kill, or will our minds and a little empathy drive us to other solutions? Disagreements can be solved without killing, but only if you actually try talking before you start shooting.

You should give this message to the Palestinians as well, if you really believe it.

 

[gree0232]

So, what you are really saying is you want to fight? We just tried that, guess what? It didn't work. We tried that a few times before that, it didn't work then. We tried assassinations, that made Hamas even stronger. Try it some more. Shall we repeat the Lebanon experience? Would that be good for Israel?

When a policy is clearly not only failing, but equally clearly counter-productive then it is time to try something different. :2brickwal

Israel has not tried seriously negotiating with Hamas. In fact, it has publically stated that it will not talk to Hamas. So, there is a rather large white elephant sitting directly across from your claim that 'negotiation has been tried.'

Of note, unilateral withdrawl is not negotiation.

Foreign governments outside the control of Israel are subject to voting solely on Israeli security requirements. The Hamas destruction clause that all the 'kill 'em all' types site in Hamas has no chance of suceeding. Why though is Israel's declaration to 'destroy' Hamas not a threat, as that one is backed by a rather powerful military?

However, to Palestinians existing under a government that is corrupt and littered with nepotism, what did Hamas look like?

They were known as honest and capable, and concerned for the Palestinian people. They talked tough to Israel, which is fine as most Palestinians don't like Israel. Oh, that destruction clause, Hamas has zero chance of effecting that, so why would the average Palestinian give one rip about it? It's nothing more than obvious propoganda to the Palestinians, so why should the Palestinians accord it the same dire ramifications that Western supporters looking for an excuse to murder someone give it? :notlook:

They voted their pocket book rather than Israeli security concerns. Now, "maybe they should "elect" more inteligent leaders.." Such as? the other guy Israel hasn't talked too in years? The moderate Abbas? They did that too. Israel didn't deal with him much either.

So, thus far all the punishment handed out, and the death that has been dealt hasn't worked and after each step Hamas comes out stronger with greater international support while Israel's slips. And you want MORE of this?

You honestly cannot think how to solve the situation except through violence? Dialoge? How about you take concrete steps toward creating a Palestinian state (the lack of which is at the heart of the conflict)? Didn't Hamas already state publically that they would give up their claims to detsroy Israel if concrete steps toward the creation of Palestinian state were taken? Isn't that EXACTLY what you want? :beam:

Or do you just want to fight somebody? Just want to beat them until they never dare disagree with you ever again? Destroy them totally?

Trust me, there are other ways to solve a dispute about land. :kissy:

 

[Southern Man]

So, what you are really saying is you want to fight? We just tried that, guess what? It didn't work. We tried that a few times before that, it didn't work then. We tried assassinations, that made Hamas even stronger. Try it some more. Shall we repeat the Lebanon experience? Would that be good for Israel?

When a policy is clearly not only failing, but equally clearly counter-productive then it is time to try something different. :2brickwal

Israel has not tried seriously negotiating with Hamas. In fact, it has publically stated that it will not talk to Hamas. So, there is a rather large white elephant sitting directly across from your claim that 'negotiation has been tried.'

Of note, unilateral withdrawl is not negotiation.

Foreign governments outside the control of Israel are subject to voting solely on Israeli security requirements. The Hamas destruction clause that all the 'kill 'em all' types site in Hamas has no chance of suceeding. Why though is Israel's declaration to 'destroy' Hamas not a threat, as that one is backed by a rather powerful military?

However, to Palestinians existing under a government that is corrupt and littered with nepotism, what did Hamas look like?

They were known as honest and capable, and concerned for the Palestinian people. They talked tough to Israel, which is fine as most Palestinians don't like Israel. Oh, that destruction clause, Hamas has zero chance of effecting that, so why would the average Palestinian give one rip about it? It's nothing more than obvious propoganda to the Palestinians, so why should the Palestinians accord it the same dire ramifications that Western supporters looking for an excuse to murder someone give it? :notlook:

They voted their pocket book rather than Israeli security concerns. Now, "maybe they should "elect" more inteligent leaders.." Such as? the other guy Israel hasn't talked too in years? The moderate Abbas? They did that too. Israel didn't deal with him much either.

So, thus far all the punishment handed out, and the death that has been dealt hasn't worked and after each step Hamas comes out stronger with greater international support while Israel's slips. And you want MORE of this?

You honestly cannot think how to solve the situation except through violence? Dialoge? How about you take concrete steps toward creating a Palestinian state (the lack of which is at the heart of the conflict)? Didn't Hamas already state publically that they would give up their claims to detsroy Israel if concrete steps toward the creation of Palestinian state were taken? Isn't that EXACTLY what you want? :beam:

Or do you just want to fight somebody? Just want to beat them until they never dare disagree with you ever again? Destroy them totally?

Trust me, there are other ways to solve a dispute about land. :kissy:

Again, the IDF has never been allowed to do its job and fully let loose on Hamas. The Israeli politicians always bow down to the UN and submit to a cease fire. This just gives Hamas time to regroup and get more weapons from Iran and Syria. Its a war by proxy, and the Palestinians willing victims.

 

[Radical Ron]

So, what you are really saying is you want to fight? We just tried that, guess what? It didn't work. We tried that a few times before that, it didn't work then. We tried assassinations, that made Hamas even stronger. Try it some more. Shall we repeat the Lebanon experience? Would that be good for Israel?

What I am really saying is that I am not afraid to fight to protect myself and my people. It didn't work because of a corrupt administration by Kadima and that coward Olmert. I'm not saying go out and start fighting for no reason. And Lebanon was perpetrated by this idiot Olmert, I don't support him. I support Israel.

When a policy is clearly not only failing, but equally clearly counter-productive then it is time to try something different. :2brickwal

but I think we have different ideas on what plan is correct.

Israel has not tried seriously negotiating with Hamas. In fact, it has publically stated that it will not talk to Hamas. So, there is a rather large white elephant sitting directly across from your claim that 'negotiation has been tried.'

Of note, unilateral withdrawl is not negotiation.

Because the Gaza pullout was not negotiation at all? Because the people of Gaza wanted Israeli troops there?

Foreign governments outside the control of Israel are subject to voting solely on Israeli security requirements. The Hamas destruction clause that all the 'kill 'em all' types site in Hamas has no chance of suceeding. Why though is Israel's declaration to 'destroy' Hamas not a threat, as that one is backed by a rather powerful military?

However, to Palestinians existing under a government that is corrupt and littered with nepotism, what did Hamas look like? [/QUOTE]

Because they are supporting the "kill'em all" types. There needs to be a solution for the Palestinian people, but not at the cost of Israeli lives.

They were known as honest and capable, and concerned for the Palestinian people. They talked tough to Israel, which is fine as most Palestinians don't like Israel. Oh, that destruction clause, Hamas has zero chance of effecting that, so why would the average Palestinian give one rip about it? It's nothing more than obvious propoganda to the Palestinians, so why should the Palestinians accord it the same dire ramifications that Western supporters looking for an excuse to murder someone give it? :notlook:

Because people blow themselves up and shoot rockets at innocent people because of it. That is just not moral. As much bad sh*t that happens to these people, it does not excuse this behavior.

They voted their pocket book rather than Israeli security concerns. Now, "maybe they should "elect" more inteligent leaders.." Such as? the other guy Israel hasn't talked too in years? The moderate Abbas? They did that too.

Fatah and HAMAS are not the only parties that represent the Palestinian people. They just have the sway.

So, thus far all the punishment handed out, and the death that has been dealt hasn't worked and after each step Hamas comes out stronger with greater international supoprt while Israel's slips. And you want MORE of this?

I want to defeat people who kill not only Israelis but their own people.

You honestly cannot think how to solve the situation except through violence? Dialoge? How about you take concrete steps toward creating a Palestinian state (the lack of which is at the heart of the conflict)? Didn't Hamas already state publically that they would give up their claims to detsroy Israel if concrete steps toward the creation of Palestinian state were taken? Isn't that EXACTLY what you want? :beam

Or do you just want to fight somebody? Just want to beat them until they never dare disagree with you ever again? Destroy them totally?

Trust me, there are other ways to solve a dispute about land. :kissy:

I don't have a problem with a Palestinian State. I have a problem with people being killed by these Islamofacists. I don't want to start fights, I want security for all people. Especially Israelis.
And for you to infer anything else is not really based on fact. I believe that Palestinians have a right to exist, I just want the same from them.

 

[gree0232]

"Because people blow themselves up and shoot rockets at innocent people because of it. That is just not moral. As much bad sh*t that happens to these people, it does not excuse this behavior."

There are no suicide bombers and the rockets are silent. You have EVERYTHING you are asking for, and you are still advocating violence. Why? :boxer

 

[Radical Ron]

"Because people blow themselves up and shoot rockets at innocent people because of it. That is just not moral. As much bad sh*t that happens to these people, it does not excuse this behavior."

There are no suicide bombers and the rockets are silent. You have EVERYTHING you are asking for, and you are still advocating violence. Why? :boxer

My point isn't to advocate violence, but to promote defence. I do honestly hope there can be peace, but not at the cost of laying down arms indefinately. The security of all of these people (Jew, Muslim, Christian, Non-Religious, etc.) is what is paramount.

 

[gree0232]

RR:
No, you are not advocating defense. You are advocating offense. You are advocating the elimination of Hamas. You are advocating that Palestinians vote for some other party that Hamas or Fatah, and that failure to do so provides the excuse to use force to compel that decision.

Is this about correct for you? It’s OK for Israel to elect Olmert who you hate and whose failing policies you lay squarely at his feet. It’s OK for Israel to elect bad leaders who use unnecessary violence. When the Palestinians do this? Well, Fatah and Hamas are not the only parties, and they should have been smarter. So when Israel elects a bad leader, America should roll out the stealth bombers and make Israel ‘smarter’? When YOUR logic is applied to Israel, does it make any sense whatsoever?

Many people are very uncomfortable with Netanyahu’s right wing government’s failure to address basic issues to the current conflict. US stealth bombers are now fully justified? :beam:

You admit where things are failing and then simply demand more violence? You demand the same policy Olmert, with even greater strength, to follow the exact same policy that lead to disaster in Lebanon. The IDF was not the right tool for that job, but somehow it is for this one?

And if you doubt this, well, here is my favorite quote from you, “Do you remember the Bush Administration?” Only to go on to agree with, “the leaders of radical Islam have to be rounded up and turned into fertilizer.” Sound an awful lot like Bush? :sword:

You know that a full scale invasion of Iraq blasted its way to success, and then suddenly lurched left into a full counter-insurgency fight? You know that more than 42 times as many soldiers were killed in the counter-insurgency operations in Iraq as in the high intensity invasion? Somehow, you want the same policy to remove Hamas (only without applying any of the lessons we learned in Iraq and Afghanistan then eventually slowed the flow of blood?) Is this really what you advocate? :fueltofir

You pitter-patter around the points you make and you think that ignoring the consequences of your policy recommendations is smart?

Kiddo, I have seen a few battles, and I don’t think any of us who have seen a real war want to fight another counter-insurgency over the pride of a young man who isn’t yet honest enough to admit to the implications of his reasoning. Remember, you were asked specifically about the lack of suicide bombers and rockets. YOU have everything you want in your policy aims. Yet still you through the security card out like it solves everything and justifies everything. It doesn’t. :thumbdown

When you get around to acknowledging that you want to fight, we’ll talk about how you intend to pay for it, how you intend to seal of Israel from the terror push back from around the world without sealing off your economy and choking the flow of funds to your war effort.

We’ll talk about the Israel soldiers who will die as a result of YOUR policy decisions and that you have thus far avoided by shouting “Hamas”.

We’ll talk about the brutality and what it will do to Israel’s American life line.

We’ll talk about the fights in and among people and the terrible way you and your friends will have to kill innocent people to get at the bad guys that always seem to multiply.

We’ll talk about the nightmares and the suicides those killings will induce in your own people.

And then we’ll talk about what happens when your blood lust has run its course and you sit down and talk to your once upon a time enemies like we did in Iraq and are now doing in Afghanistan.

You cannot kill your way to a solution. :respekt:

 

[Southern Man]

RR:
No, you are not advocating defense. You are advocating offense. ...

The best defense is a good offense. Better to go to their place and break their stuff instead of letting them come to your house and break yours. *shrug*

 

[gree0232]

SM:
The whole point of that post was to show that offense in this case leads to a protracted counter insurgency, not canned Zen Buddhism. :roll:

Do you have a logical COA that you can support with evidence? Can you provide reasoning that 'offense' leading to a 10-15 year long brutal insurgency is a good idea?

I didn't think so. :waiting:

If you are going to provide bits of Confucian wisdom rather than logic, could you at least stick to your own religion?

Seek peace, and pursue it. (Proverbs 34:14) :angel?:

 

[Southern Man]

SM:
The whole point of that post was to show that offense in this case leads to a protracted counter insurgency, not canned Zen Buddhism. :roll:

Do you have a logical COA that you can support with evidence? Can you provide reasoning that 'offense' leading to a 10-15 year long brutal insurgency is a good idea?

I didn't think so. :waiting:

If you are going to provide bits of Confucian wisdom rather than logic, could you at least stick to your own religion?

Seek peace, and pursue it. (Proverbs 34:14) :angel?:

My argument all along is that the offense has to be total war, just like we did with Germany and Japan. The IDF has not been given the authority to do that, so of course the insurgency has been protracted.

 

[gree0232]

SM:
What would you call three weeks of unrestricted bombing, artillery, mortars, tanks, and infantry Brigades moving through Gaza? A warm up?:darthgunny

It was when the Israeli's realized they were being drawn into the cities where their fire power was nuetralized that the Israeli Generals said, "Uh, no." Do you hear any Israeli Generals screaming in the press that they were robbed? Or is the sudden addmission from Olmert regarding the 1967 borders being the solution based on something else? A magic epiphany perhaps? :slapme:

BTW, there have been several full out wars regarding the situation, and I believe that, even after these wars, we don't have a solution, we have Hamas.

So, exactly how did those wars solve that problem, and how will another one do anything other than kill a lot of people? Isn't killing for no real purpose murder?

Tell me again, what makes you an expert of conflict resolution through war? And who exactly do YOU want to fight this war? Will YOUR taxes pay for it?

Reason and logic will always get the better of pilthy sayings. :hitsfan:

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace. - I Corinthians 14:33

I don't suppose a good Christian man like yourself can point me to the portion of the Good Book that preaches conflict resolution through F-16's and machine guns. I'll be darned if I can find it?

 

[Radical Ron]

RR:
No, you are not advocating defense. You are advocating offense. You are advocating the elimination of Hamas. You are advocating that Palestinians vote for some other party that Hamas or Fatah, and that failure to do so provides the excuse to use force to compel that decision.

Rockets being shot into Israel and retaliating = defense.

I don't recall ever posting that they should vote for other parties. I just said that there are other parties. If you are going to criticize at least sound like you know what you're talking about please.

Is this about correct for you? It’s OK for Israel to elect Olmert who you hate and whose failing policies you lay squarely at his feet. It’s OK for Israel to elect bad leaders who use unnecessary violence. When the Palestinians do this? Well, Fatah and Hamas are not the only parties, and they should have been smarter. So when Israel elects a bad leader, America should roll out the stealth bombers and make Israel ‘smarter’? When YOUR logic is applied to Israel, does it make any sense whatsoever?

I don't have to defend my position if you are not going to argue it with facts. You have not proved me wrong by any means. Getting huffy-puffy and claiming I have a double standard seems pretty ironic for someone who's message is 'When Israels defend themselves it's a war crime, but when Palestinians shoot rockets into Israel it's freedom fighting'? And when the hell did I say we should roll out the stealth bombers on the Palestinians? Don't put words in my mouth to cover up your lack of an arguement! I DO NOT SUPPORT THE USE OF AMERICAN FORCES IN ISRAEL, BECAUSE THEY DON'T NEED US TO PROTECT THEMSELVES.

Many people are very uncomfortable with Netanyahu’s right wing government’s failure to address basic issues to the current conflict...

Not Israelis, and the last time I checked Israeli's ran their own government.

You admit where things are failing and then simply demand more violence? You demand the same policy Olmert, with even greater strength, to follow the exact same policy that lead to disaster in Lebanon. The IDF was not the right tool for that job, but somehow it is for this one?

If someone blew up a family member/friend/lover/co-worker of yours I bet you'd be saying STOP THE VIOLENCE! To say I support Olmert (or his cowardly mismanagement of the nation) is to insult the inteligence of anyone who has ever read anything I have written, and to think I supported his war in Lebanon is really beyond ignorant.

And if you doubt this, well, here is my favorite quote from you, “Do you remember the Bush Administration?” Only to go on to agree with, “the leaders of radical Islam have to be rounded up and turned into fertilizer.” Sound an awful lot like Bush?...

Did Iraq attack the United States? No.
Did HAMAS attack Israel? Yes.
hmmm....... Seems like a big difference to me.

You know that a full scale invasion of Iraq blasted its way to success, and then suddenly lurched left into a full counter-insurgency fight? You know that more than 42 times as many soldiers were killed in the counter-insurgency operations in Iraq as in the high intensity invasion? Somehow, you want the same policy to remove Hamas (only without applying any of the lessons we learned in Iraq and Afghanistan then eventually slowed the flow of blood?) Is this really what you advocate?...

Again I am of the belief that Israel is more than capable of taking care of themselves, and futhermore why would American military history have any pertainance to an Israeli-Palestinian conflict? I don't advocate the same policy. I advocate a more thorough and effective policy.

You pitter-patter around the points you make and you think that ignoring the consequences of your policy recommendations is smart?

What consequences do I ignore? Are there going to be Israelis dead? Yes! Many dead! Are their going to be Palestinian's dead? Yes! Many dead! It's called war! I don't make it out like..."oh if we just kill them, it'll all be over and we can go enjoy happytime." This is the real world.

Kiddo, I have seen a few battles, and I don’t think any of us who have seen a real war want to fight another counter-insurgency over the pride of a young man who isn’t yet honest enough to admit to the implications of his reasoning. Remember, you were asked specifically about the lack of suicide bombers and rockets. YOU have everything you want in your policy aims. Yet still you through the security card out like it solves everything and justifies everything. It doesn’t. :thumbdown

U.S. Marine Corps 2003-2007. I was in Iraq. Please don't patronize me with this....nonsense.

You say "lack" when ABSENSE is the only acceptable condition.

I would rather be secure than vulnerable to attack.

When you get around to acknowledging that you want to fight, we’ll talk about how you intend to pay for it, how you intend to seal of Israel from the terror push back from around the world without sealing off your economy and choking the flow of funds to your war effort.

I don't want Israel to be sealed off. I don't want to stop trade. I want there to be a partner to trade with in Israel, I want the Israeli people to be safe, and I am not afraid to fight for that. I'm sorry if you think it's wrong to protect yourself, but I don't.

We’ll talk about the Israel soldiers who will die as a result of YOUR policy decisions and that you have thus far avoided by shouting “Hamas”.

Unlike America, most Israelis I know view their government as weak and inneffectibe against these Islamofacists. Many of my friends in the IDF are more commited to their fight than we are ours. Give them a little credit, huh?

We’ll talk about the brutality and what it will do to Israel’s American life line.

In all fairness, America seems to be a little more sensible than you.

We’ll talk about the fights in and among people and the terrible way you and your friends will have to kill innocent people to get at the bad guys that always seem to multiply.

Have you ever killed someone? If not please show some respect please.

We’ll talk about the nightmares and the suicides those killings will induce in your own people.

Like now?

And then we’ll talk about what happens when your blood lust has run its course and you sit down and talk to your once upon a time enemies like we did in Iraq and are now doing in Afghanistan.

So protecting myself is bloodlust? I never said there can be no peace! There must be peace. But not at the cost of the Israeli people who are punished because they are the superior force.

You cannot kill your way to a solution. :respekt:

But Palestinians can I guess, huh?:roll:

 

[gree0232]

"Rockets being shot into Israel and retaliating = defense."

well, other than watching you go off the deep end, claiming direct quotes from earlier posts don't say what they said, and now claiming I have said thing that were clearly not said.

So, lets get to the main point. THERE ARE NO ROCKETS BEING FIRED AT ISRAEL. THERE ARE NO SUICIDE DETONATIONS IN ISREAL. :roll:

This is what you want? You HAVE what you want! Now what? Maybe talk to Hamas as they have stopped shooting? You do realize at some point you have to live next door to these people?

Are you advocating this as a way for people to live next to their neighbors? While pointing a gun at your neighbor, "You with the groceries and the infant, you'd best get yerself inside as quick as possible now. And don't even think about throwing a rock at me, 'cause I will kill ya'."

BTW, kiddo, do the words Ranger, paratrooper, infantryman mean anything to you? One of my best friends was a Mechanized Company Commnder in Falluhja attached to a Marine BN. The Marine Battalion Commander refused to let the tanks lead the way into Fallujha because he wanted Marines without armor to 'lead the way' rather than the US Army. 8 Marines from that BN died on the first day of battle.

I know the Marines quite well, kiddo, and I have lead boys like you into battle. If you think throwing your uniform in my face somehow pardons the innocent people that would die on the one side and the Israeli soldiers who would die on the other, well, it doesn't work that way. Your service does not excuse someone else's death, particularly when those deaths are needless. I would hate to think that you are trying to intimidate me with tough talk and a uniform you no longer wear? You can scream all you want, but that doesn't change what is. :shock:

ISRAEL IS CURRENTLY NOT TAKING ROCKET FIRE, AND THERE ARE CURRENTLY NO SUICIDE BOMBERS in ISRAEL. :doh

So, instead falsely claiming that anyone other than you has said that Hams should kill anything, maybe we can move on and address the Palestinian grievances?

Like the lack of a Palestinian Homeland, which you have yet to address. :2wave:

I am not sure what you are debating kiddo, but it is clearly no longer facts or anything realiting to policy decisions.

 

[gree0232]

"Have you ever killed someone? If not please show some respect please."

Have you? You do know that 90% of the IED's going off in Iraq explode on Iraqi civilians? Have you ever seen what an IED meant to destroy an UAH or a MRAP does to Hyundai with a family in it? Have you seen that? You want MORE of this to happen for no particular reason?

Let me see if these places mean anything to you? Fallujha, Ramadi, Mosul, Baqubah, Baghdad.

Does that answer your question kiddo?

A Marine you MAY have been, but there are plenty of people who claim that mantel who were nothing more than paralegals. I have yet to take troops into battle (particularly a nasty counter-insurgency fight) who would advocate going back into such a fight (much less provoking one) when there were viable alternatives. So what is up with you? Why are YOU so different then all the guys I fought with?

I assume you know about the Abu Risha tribe, about how & what they did to AQI? I assume you know about the co-option of JAM? I assume you want to talk about tactics that worked and how we can apply them to Hamas in a similiar COIN environment? Or do you just want people to bow down like the lesser people that everyone must be to you? Do you just want to claim that everyone who disagrees, however grounded in logic those disagreements are, must be a coward?

Thus far, all I have seen you do is talk about fighting without talking about what that fighting means. Semper Fi is NOT a response to consequences.

You watch it kiddo. You throw the banner of service out with flippant disregard and some of us WILL pick it up. If you are a combat vet, then you know how we feel about killing. You would be the first I have seen throw that in anyone's face. :shock:

 

[Vader]

"Rockets being shot into Israel and retaliating = defense."

well, other than watching you go off the deep end, claiming direct quotes from earlier posts don't say what they said, and now claiming I have said thing that were clearly not said.

So, lets get to the main point. THERE ARE NO ROCKETS BEING FIRED AT ISRAEL. THERE ARE NO SUICIDE DETONATIONS IN ISREAL. :roll:

This is what you want? You HAVE what you want! Now what? Maybe talk to Hamas as they have stopped shooting? You do realize at some point you have to live next door to these people?

Are you advocating this as a way for people to live next to their neighbors? While pointing a gun at your neighbor, "You with the groceries and the infant, you'd best get yerself inside as quick as possible now. And don't even think about throwing a rock at me, 'cause I will kill ya'."

BTW, kiddo, do the words Ranger, paratrooper, infantryman mean anything to you? One of my best friends was a Mechanized Company Commnder in Falluhja attached to a Marine BN. The Marine Battalion Commander refused to let the tanks lead the way into Fallujha because he wanted Marines without armor to 'lead the way' rather than the US Army. 8 Marines from that BN died on the first day of battle.

I know the Marines quite well, kiddo, and I have lead boys like you into battle. If you think throwing your uniform in my face somehow pardons the innocent people that would die on the one side and the Israeli soldiers who would die on the other, well, it doesn't work that way. Your service does not excuse someone else's death, particularly when those deaths are needless. I would hate to think that you are trying to intimidate me with tough talk and a uniform you no longer wear? You can scream all you want, but that doesn't change what is. :shock:

ISRAEL IS CURRENTLY NOT TAKING ROCKET FIRE, AND THERE ARE CURRENTLY NO SUICIDE BOMBERS in ISRAEL. :doh

So, instead falsely claiming that anyone other than you has said that Hams should kill anything, maybe we can move on and address the Palestinian grievances?

Like the lack of a Palestinian Homeland, which you have yet to address. :2wave:

I am not sure what you are debating kiddo, but it is clearly no longer facts or anything realiting to policy decisions.

WRONG.

You fail.

The following is a list of some of the Hamas Rocket attacks for February 2009:


[edit] 10 February 2009

"A Kassam rocket struck the western Negev" during the day of the 2009 Israeli legislative election.[301]. Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip fired the rocket just half an hour before the polls were to close[302].
Amnesty International group on Tuesday accused Hamas of carrying out a "deadly campaign" against its Palestinian opponents and critics in the Gaza Strip. "At least two dozen [Palestinian] men have been shot dead by Hamas gunmen and scores of others have been kneecapped, beaten or otherwise tortured or ill-treated," according to the report.[303]

[edit] 11 February 2009

Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip fired four mortar shells at the western Negev [some versions indicate only two mortar shells] during the course of the day Wednesday[304]. Israeli warplanes on late Wednesday night struck a Hamas post in the southern Gaza Strip town of Khan Younis. An Israel Defense Forces spokesman said that the strike came in response to mortar fire on the western Negev. There were no reports of casualties in the attack.[305]

[edit] 12 February 2009

On Thursday night, an Israel Defense Forces unit operating in the West Bank town of Qabatiyeh, near Jenin, found a five kilogram explosive device and a smaller pipe bomb. Border Police sappers safely detonated the explosives[306].



[edit] 13 February 2009

Two Qassam rockets and a mortar shell fired by Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip exploded in the western Negev, causing no casualties or damages. One of the rockets struck an open field in the Eshkol Regional Council and about an hour later another hit near the city of Sderot. An Israeli warplane bombed a target in the Gaza Strip town of Khan Younis Friday, killing one militant and critically wounding another. IDF spokesman said the strike hit two Islamic Jihad militants who were planning a terrorist attack within Israel and that the strike was the result of a joint operation of the IDF and the Shin Bet Security Services. Later, Israeli aircraft carried out six strikes on smuggling tunnels along the border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt. There were no reports of casualties, Hamas security officials and local residents said [307].
Israeli soldiers shot and killed a Palestinian teenager who was throwing stones in the West Bank city of Hebron.[308]The IDF reported that dozens of Palestinians hurled rocks at a military guard tower next to an Israeli settlement in Hebron and a soldier shot the ringleader, a 14-year-old Palestinian[309]

[edit] 14 February 2009

On Saturday, a device was detonated near an IDF patrol next to the border, no injuries or damages were reported[310].

[edit] 15 February 2009

Israel Defense Forces soldiers on Sunday neutralized an explosive device on the border near the Kissufim crossing on the border of the Gaza Strip. The device was presumably to be used in an attack against IDF troops patrolling the area.[311]

[edit] 16 February 2009

Palestinian rockets hit Israel Monday morning. Two rockets fired from Gaza one hitting an open area in the Sha'ar Hanegev region and the other hitting inside a kibbutz in the Sdot Negev region. No injuries were reported in either incident, but some property sustained damage. IAF jets bombed the Philadelphi route, an area of smuggling tunnels near Gaza's border with Egypt in response to the rocket fire[312].

[edit] 17 February 2009

The Israel Defense Forces said Tuesday that Hamas has commandeered a large cache of unexploded weapons fired by Israel into the Gaza Strip during its offensive last month. The cache had disappeared while under guard by Hamas officials. UN officials said that they were urgently seeking out the location of the weapons and calling for their return. They said some of the unexploded devices were extremely volatile and could easily be set off by accident[313].

[edit] 18 February 2009

On Wednesday, a Qassam rocket hit the western Negev. The rocket exploded in a field in the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council, causing no casualties or damages[314].


19 February 2009

Five Qassam rockets where fired from Gaza Strip into the western Negev's. Two in the morning hitting the Eshkol region and three in the evening, one hitting near Sderot and the other two near Netivot. The rocket attacks caused neither casualties nor damage. Shortly afterwards the morning atack, the Israel Defense Forces hit a Palestinian militant attempting to plant a bomb on the Israel-Gaza border, lightly wounding him. The militant, who was hurt near the Keren Shalom border crossing, was later taken to a hospital in Israel for treatment. Israel Air Force warplanes bombed six smuggling tunnels along the Gaza-Egypt border in response to the morning rocket fire. The attack caused secondary blasts, according to the IDF, which showed that explosives were hit in the airstrike. There were no reports of casualties[315].

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2009#19_February_2009


Hamas is still attacking Israel .. despite the cease fire.

You can now admit you're wrong and apologize for the massive error you made in your last post.

 

[Degreez]

Hamas is still attacking Israel .. despite the cease fire.

You can now admit you're wrong and apologize for the massive error you made in your last post.

Not once in those rocket attacks you listed does it say Hamas fired them. Where do you make that inference from, IF IT DOESN'T EVEN SAY IT IN WHAT YOU'RE QUOTING?

Actually, in one of the attacks it says the IDF responded to the launch location and killed two members of the group Islamic Jihad.

So kindly, prove that it was Hamas who fired these rockets after they agreed to a cease fire.

Oh wait... YOU CAN'T :roll: :doh

Queue terrorist support lines.... NOW

 

[Radical Ron]

"Rockets being shot into Israel and retaliating = defense."

well, other than watching you go off the deep end, claiming direct quotes from earlier posts don't say what they said, and now claiming I have said thing that were clearly not said.

So, lets get to the main point. THERE ARE NO ROCKETS BEING FIRED AT ISRAEL. THERE ARE NO SUICIDE DETONATIONS IN ISREAL. :roll:

That's what sparked this war in the first place, IF there are no rockets or suicide detonations in Israel now it is because the IDF did their job. (although I find that hard to beleive. In fact why don't you give me some proof of your arguement?) That doesn't take away the threat. People can just flip through the post to read what we have each posted again, I am not putting words in your mouth. Hence quoting.

This is what you want? You HAVE what you want! Now what? Maybe talk to Hamas as they have stopped shooting? You do realize at some point you have to live next door to these people?

You really think that I want to just kill people for the sake of killing don't you? I am not afraid to kill someone if they threaten me or my people, but that does not in any way imply that I just want to kill people. If we can come to a diplomatic solution then let us praise G-d for a true miracle of peace, but that does not mean I have to be an unarmed target for those who still desire to kill me and my people.

Are you advocating this as a way for people to live next to their neighbors? While pointing a gun at your neighbor, "You with the groceries and the infant, you'd best get yerself inside as quick as possible now. And don't even think about throwing a rock at me, 'cause I will kill ya'."

No. I would expect a little more discipline.

BTW, kiddo, do the words Ranger, paratrooper, infantryman mean anything to you? One of my best friends was a Mechanized Company Commnder in Falluhja attached to a Marine BN. The Marine Battalion Commander refused to let the tanks lead the way into Fallujha because he wanted Marines without armor to 'lead the way' rather than the US Army. 8 Marines from that BN died on the first day of battle.

I know the Marines quite well, kiddo, and I have lead boys like you into battle. If you think throwing your uniform in my face somehow pardons the innocent people that would die on the one side and the Israeli soldiers who would die on the other, well, it doesn't work that way. Your service does not excuse someone else's death, particularly when those deaths are needless. I would hate to think that you are trying to intimidate me with tough talk and a uniform you no longer wear? You can scream all you want, but that doesn't change what is. :shock:

Where do/did you serve sir?

...So, instead falsely claiming that anyone other than you has said that Hams should kill anything, maybe we can move on and address the Palestinian grievances?

Like the lack of a Palestinian Homeland, which you have yet to address. :2wave:

? Well I didn't say that diplomacy was out of the question. So Israel and Palestine will come to whatever agreement they come too. I will except the decision of Netanyahu, because unlike Olmert, I have respect for him and his decisions. I don't think that this will be the end of the peace process by any stretch and although I appreciate your passion, please be assured that peace is my goal. But whatever peace equation comes forth I will not just support it because it is a peace agreement, I will only support a sensible agreement that not only benefits the Palestinian people, but also the Israelis (who are my people). My continuing stance on fighting has not been to kill all of Israel's enemies, but to defend the people of Israel from something like this in the future.

Off the quotes let me ask you and everyone else who happens to be paying attention, do you think that Israel has a right to defend itself?

 

[Radical Ron]

Not once in those rocket attacks you listed does it say Hamas fired them. Where do you make that inference from, IF IT DOESN'T EVEN SAY IT IN WHAT YOU'RE QUOTING?

Actually, in one of the attacks it says the IDF responded to the launch location and killed two members of the group Islamic Jihad.

So kindly, prove that it was Hamas who fired these rockets after they agreed to a cease fire.

Oh wait... YOU CAN'T :roll: :doh

Queue terrorist support lines.... NOW

The point is still valid. They may not have been "HAMAS" but they are certainly provoking yet another response from Israel. Do these people have no concern over their neighbors and relatives? If so, WHY would they try to provoke a nation much more powerful than them?

 

[gree0232]

Hamas is still attacking Israel .. despite the cease fire.

Hmmm, well I was beaten to the punch. However, last time I checked the fundamental issue had not been addressed: The lack of a Palestinian State.

IF, and in your case that is a very BIG IF, you follow counter-insurgency doctrine, you'll understand that addressing the grievences that feed a dispute must be applied with force or even in lieu of force. Ergo, clamoring about rockets while ignoring the grievances would be bad counter-insurgency. But heh, that's just want the manual (and common sense) says.

Israel hits gunmen in Gaza, kills youth in West Bank - Worldnews.com

So, you see here that Israel is now having to kill people in the West Bank as well as Gaza. Are you beginning to see how violently repressing Hamas might also be destabillizing the moderates in the West Bank and quite possibly lead to the deterioration of Israeli Security ... which was pretty calm on the West Bank.

Also, so we are clear while you jump up for an apology, maybe you should figure out what it is I was saying before you go beserk (again!). If RR is correct in his logic, I have blood on my hands and you do not. Ergo, according to RR, everything I say is correct, and everything you say is wrong. The logic behind your statements is irrelevant. I rather strongly disagree with that statement, hence the strongly worded reply. I believe that even people who have not seen combat are entitled to opinions and have valid thoughts and ideas.

You want me to apologize for that? Are you SURE you want me to apologize for thinking that ideas are either good or bad based on their merits rather than MY combat experience?

There is a ganglion mass between your ears Vader, please at least TRY to use it?

 

[Radical Ron]

"Have you ever killed someone? If not please show some respect please."

Have you? You do know that 90% of the IED's going off in Iraq explode on Iraqi civilians? Have you ever seen what an IED meant to destroy an UAH or a MRAP does to Hyundai with a family in it? Have you seen that? You want MORE of this to happen for no particular reason?

I will not dishonor myself by answering that question. I would hope that it could have been implied by my previous statements.

Let me see if these places mean anything to you? Fallujha, Ramadi, Mosul, Baqubah, Baghdad.

Have you seen any of those places with your own eyes? I was in Fallujha! Does that answer the kill question?

Does that answer your question kiddo?

Does it answer yours?

A Marine you MAY have been, but there are plenty of people who claim that mantel who were nothing more than paralegals. I have yet to take troops into battle (particularly a nasty counter-insurgency fight) who would advocate going back into such a fight (much less provoking one) when there were viable alternatives. So what is up with you? Why are YOU so different then all the guys I fought with?

I assume you know about the Abu Risha tribe, about how & what they did to AQI? I assume you know about the co-option of JAM? I assume you want to talk about tactics that worked and how we can apply them to Hamas in a similiar COIN environment? Or do you just want people to bow down like the lesser people that everyone must be to you? Do you just want to claim that everyone who disagrees, however grounded in logic those disagreements are, must be a coward?

Thus far, all I have seen you do is talk about fighting without talking about what that fighting means. Semper Fi is NOT a response to consequences.

You watch it kiddo. You throw the banner of service out with flippant disregard and some of us WILL pick it up. If you are a combat vet, then you know how we feel about killing. You would be the first I have seen throw that in anyone's face. :shock:

Just because you disagree with my opinion does not give you the slightest hint of a right to dishonor the service I performed for my country. You don't know me. I laugh because you would never insult me like that to my face so why do it here? Don't throw around your service like it's superior to mine, because I have shown you the same respect. SEMPER FI!

 

[gree0232]

The point is still valid. They may not have been "HAMAS" but they are certainly provoking yet another response from Israel. Do these people have no concern over their neighbors and relatives? If so, WHY would they try to provoke a nation much more powerful than them?

Agh, Hamas has recently had its entire C2 (that would be command and control for all you no-military types) organization attacked and largely destroyed, yet they are now responsible for the entire Gaza security apparatus including splinter groups.

And your policy of applying force is meant to drive Hamas from power (and with no power they cannot control the situation) and allow one of these splinter groups to take over? :Oopsie

I'm thinking that would be kind of a bad idea in terms of security actually?

 

[Degreez]

The point is still valid. They may not have been "HAMAS" but they are certainly provoking yet another response from Israel. Do these people have no concern over their neighbors and relatives? If so, WHY would they try to provoke a nation much more powerful than them?

Of course they don't have concern for their neighbors and relatives. They're militants who are hell-bent on causing destruction or violence. But Israel has denied Hamas legitimacy in the PA parliament in elections that Israel pushed for that Hamas ended up winning the majority. Now they are saying any and all attacks are there responsibility without giving Hamas there own legitimacy to determine that for themselves and denounce the attacks. Top it off with the other militant groups in the area which have already claimed a lot of the attacks. This is why most of the news articles say "Palestinian militants fired...", instead of outright saying who it was.

Look at Lebanon. 3 rockets were fired today from Lebanon (2 landed in Lebanese territory) with 1 katyashu hitting Israel and injuring people with glass. You claim these terrorists openly want to destroy Israel, so why not take the responsibility from these attacks?

 

[gree0232]

"I will not dishonor myself by answering that question. I would hope that it could have been implied by my previous statements."

But you will demand I answer it, and show you respect for it?

Guess what stud, I've been in Fallujha myself. And all those other palces listed. Plus a few more. Like Ka'la (every heard of it or know what happened there?)

If you want to debate, so be it. If you throw your uniform around as the sole justification for your opinion again, I will remind you once again that you are far from being the only combat veteran.

I will continue to remind you what the price of combat is for BOTH sides.

You were well out of line.