Palestinian family kills 15-yr-old son

[CaptainCourtesy]

Once again we will have to agree to disagree, I just don't see this case in the same way as you do.

Then we will have to, since I do not see the situation as you do.

Killing a child is a much worst crime than recruiting one for spying, I agreed with bub on that point, I also agreed with Tashah that this whole case is based on assumptions, but I still maintain my intitial idea, using another example away from this case, that if you bribe a child to do something bad and the child gets caught and punished, you are also responsible for getting the child into an unlawful position.

This analogy does not fit, since, in this case, the "bribery" would not be against the law in Israel. You are dealing with two different jurisdictions.

 

[Tashah]

what a moral dilemma
i cannot imagine the family killing the family member without having been absolutely convinced that he had actually conspired against them with the enemy
this is a 15 year old kid who has grown up in the environment knowing the fate of those found to have turned against their own people
so he undertook the treason knowing the consequences
knowing the shame and trauma it would bring upon his family
and apparently he turned traitor, anyway
what other alternative did the family have?
and be assured, this result will chill any other young men (and women) who would consider selling out their people to the enemy
a 15 year old who would do that to his family deserved the fate he suffered
i am only thankful that i will never be placed in that father's position

I would suggest you read the entire thread.

According to all information thus far, no collaboration transpired.

This apparently is a case of domestic murder.

 

[Apocalypse]

First of all I have spent most of my adult life in the West and very proud of my Middle Eastern origin.
Second, if you scroll up a few posts, you will see that I agreed to what bub said, that murdering a child is a much more immoral act than hiring a spy.

If you scroll up just one post, you will understand what I'm talking about as far as responsibilty is concerned.

Then I guess I'm blind, because I quoted this post:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/50165-palestinian-family-kills-15-yr-old-son-14.html#post1058080139
Which is post #133, while you agreed with bub at post #124.

 

[justabubba]

I would suggest you read the entire thread.

According to all information thus far, no collaboration transpired.

This apparently is a case of domestic murder.

so, you think the family killed the kid without being convinced of his guilt

not a chance

 

[Tashah]

so, you think the family killed the kid without being convinced of his guilt

not a chance

The "family" did not kill the boy. An uncle with mental problems confessed.

Read the thread before jumping to erroneous conclusions.

 

[Apocalypse]

so, you think the family killed the kid without being convinced of his guilt

not a chance

Because we're all European peace loving folks who live in our peaceful European countries with our peaceful European neighbors, and our greatest European concern that bothers us all day long is what tomorrow's European weather would be like.

 

[Real Talk]

If this was fundamentally true, then hundreds of Palestinian kids should have already been executed by the Palestinian authorities or militia.

Cite me where even one Palestinian child has been executed for collaborating.

I'll wait.

Check the OP
Regardless, u said competant inteligence services. Im sure the U.S. would listen if a kid told them where a weapons cache was. Thats informing. What do u think theyd do?
"nah sorry your information is not good we're competant and ur a kid". Yeah right.

 

[kaya'08]

ALL I'M TRYING TO SAY IS THAT IF A MINOR IS USED FOR SPYING KNOWING THAT A SPY IS PUNISHED BY DEATH, THE RECRUITER IS AS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RESULT AS THE ONE WHO KILLED THE MINOR .

I understand your moral approach to this, it makes sense. Unfortunately the blame of the barbarianism of the state can only be shared by one set of people and not two, and thats the government. The intent was not to get caught and im sure the Israeli Secret Services do all they can to make sure a collaborator is not caught, so you cant really point the finger at the SS unless of course you can prove there negligence. Im not saying the 15 yo child was even a collaborator. As far as we know the agenda of the Father was totally unrelated to Israel, and just wanted to get away with it so pinned the blame on Israel saying he suspected collaboration, got a pat on the back by the state and no one looks twice. Now IF this child was a collaborator, then the Israeli SS isnt to blame for the outcome, but the fact there sick enough, and clearly deprived of information enough, to turn to a child.

 

[jallman]

The article does not say hindreds of Palestinian KIDS

Oh well that makes it all better. :roll:

 

[hiswoman]

That poor kid. How incredibly sad and utterly inexcusable.

 

[justabubba]

The "family" did not kill the boy. An uncle with mental problems confessed.

Read the thread before jumping to erroneous conclusions.

take your own advice and read the article in the OP:

... The Palestinian Authority security forces announced that they have arrested a number of the boy's family members in connection with the killing.

The suspects confessed, saying they decided to kill Sawalha because of his alleged connections with the Israeli authorities, PA security sources said. ...

 

[Real Talk]

Oh well that makes it all better. :roll:

it makes your train of thought nonsense.
Not once has i excused the action, and the comment was leveled at me.
So whats this about making it better?
Im comparing it to putting a kid in a cloaths dryer. I think its barbaric.

 

[Mira]

Then I guess I'm blind, because I quoted this post:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/50165-palestinian-family-kills-15-yr-old-son-14.html#post1058080139
Which is post #133, while you agreed with bub at post #124.

There is a difference between being equally responsible and the gravity of actually committing a murder. Committing a murder is a far more criminal act than recruiting a spy. The responsibility in causing the death is equal.

Why is this so difficult to understand ?

I bribed the kid, the kid got punished. I'm as responsible for the outcome as the person who punished the kid . If the kid was killed, the one who killed him is the only person responsible for the murder itself, but if I bribed the kid knowing that the kid will get murdered, I'm morally as responsible.

edit: imagine this scenario. You tell a friend to go climb a cliff knowing that the cliff is dangerous and many poeple have died trying to climb it. The friend tries to clim the cliff, falls and dies. Will you be able to sleep comfortably from then on ?

 

[Apocalypse]

I bribed the kid, the kid got punished. I'm as responsible for the outcome as the person who punished the kid . If the kid was killed, the one who killed him is the only person responsible for the murder itself, but if I bribed the kid knowing that the kid will get murdered, I'm morally as responsible.

And this is where our moral codes part ways dear Mira.

 

[Mira]

And this is where our moral codes part ways dear Mira.

please read what I just added above:

edit: imagine this scenario. You tell a friend to go climb a cliff knowing that the cliff is dangerous and many poeple have died trying to climb it. The friend tries to clim the cliff, falls and dies. Will you be able to sleep comfortably from then on ?

By saying that our moral codes part, are you saying that your moral codes are above mine ? just curious

 

[bub]

Where did you get this from?

It's in the article you quoted in the first post of this thread

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

take your own advice and read the article in the OP:

Try reading the entire thread and discover the correct information, before posting. As was already posted:

On Friday, however, it became clear that the incident, which made headlines in Palestine, Israel and abroad, was actually a domestic violence assault on the part of a mentally disabled relative, according to shocked family members.
Maan News Agency

So, what say you, now?

 

[Tashah]

take your own advice and read the article in the OP:

And if you weren't so lazy you would discover in this thread that Degreez (a Palestinian) subsequently found a different article with much more pertinint information.

Like I said before, read the entire thread before making an ass of yourself.

Ooops. Too late.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

There is a difference between being equally responsible and the gravity of actually committing a murder. Committing a murder is a far more criminal act than recruiting a spy. The responsibility in causing the death is equal.

Why is this so difficult to understand ?

I bribed the kid, the kid got punished. I'm as responsible for the outcome as the person who punished the kid . If the kid was killed, the one who killed him is the only person responsible for the murder itself, but if I bribed the kid knowing that the kid will get murdered, I'm morally as responsible.

edit: imagine this scenario. You tell a friend to go climb a cliff knowing that the cliff is dangerous and many poeple have died trying to climb it. The friend tries to clim the cliff, falls and dies. Will you be able to sleep comfortably from then on ?

Irrelevant whether I would be able to sleep comfortably. I would not in any way be responsible. He CHOSE to jump. You are now moving the goalposts. This is not about how someone feels but about who is responsible.

 

[bub]

I would suggest you read the entire thread.

According to all information thus far, no collaboration transpired.

This apparently is a case of domestic murder.

As I've said before, then maybe it's not a great idea to depict it as "one of the numerous cases of Palestinians killing kids who are suspected of helping Israel"

 

[Mira]

Irrelevant whether I would be able to sleep comfortably. I would not in any way be responsible. He CHOSE to jump. You are now moving the goalposts. This is not about how someone feels but about who is responsible.

This is exactly where our moral values part. I would never sleep well again.

I'm afraid we are from different cultures after all.

 

[kaya'08]

please read what I just added above:

edit: imagine this scenario. You tell a friend to go climb a cliff knowing that the cliff is dangerous and many poeple have died trying to climb it. The friend tries to clim the cliff, falls and dies. Will you be able to sleep comfortably from then on ?

By saying that our moral codes part, are you saying that your moral codes are above mine ? just curious

First of all, do you know if the child was collaborating with the IDF? All this is getting out of hand.

Secondly, do you know how many potential lives could be saved through such valuable intelligence details for the IDF?

Thirdly, nobody other than the state is to blame for the childs death, and those who caused the childs death. The IDF does not take this responsibly. The IDF do all they can in there power to ensure there collaborators are in check. If you can prove negligence on there part, then you can pin the blame on them. Otherwise you have nothing. The only thing you can put the blame on the IDF is the fact they used a child.

So lets reword:

What happens if i asked tom to try out my motorbike and told him to wear the helmet to ensure his life wasnt at risk, but he crashed and the helmet by chance cracked and the impact of the fall went directly to his head and killed him as a result....thats my fault?

I understand your moral approach to this, it makes sense. Unfortunately the blame of the barbarianism of the state can only be shared by one set of people and not two, and thats the government. The intent was not to get caught and im sure the Israeli Secret Services do all they can to make sure a collaborator is not caught, so you cant really point the finger at the SS unless of course you can prove there negligence. Im not saying the 15 yo child was even a collaborator. As far as we know the agenda of the Father was totally unrelated to Israel, and just wanted to get away with it so pinned the blame on Israel saying he suspected collaboration, got a pat on the back by the state and no one looks twice. Now IF this child was a collaborator, then the Israeli SS isnt to blame for the outcome, but the fact there sick enough, and clearly deprived of information enough, to turn to a child.

 

[Tashah]

It's in the article you quoted in the first post of this thread

I didn't write the article. At the time the article was posted, the information presented came from the PA.

 

[Apocalypse]

please read what I just added above:

edit: imagine this scenario. You tell a friend to go climb a cliff knowing that the cliff is dangerous and many poeple have died trying to climb it. The friend tries to clim the cliff, falls and dies. Will you be able to sleep comfortably from then on ?

Your analogy lacks the second side involved in this theory, the Palestinian family side.
You chose to describe it as a cliff, even though a cliff cannot be guilty for what it's doing.

By saying that our moral codes part, are you saying that your moral codes are above mine ? just curious

They differ greatly.

 

[Mira]

First of all, do you know if the child was collaborating with the IDF? All this is getting out of hand.

That has already been discussed kaya, you're a bit late