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Are they? I suggest muslim women would get equal treatment under under western law, not sharia.
source
The important issue is whether they actually are. To be subservient the woman would be acting in a way which made her in some way servile. At the moment a lot of Muslim women are for instance choosing even to wear veils. This may be innappropriate for many occupations and hence rule out working in that area but if it is a persons choice then I cannot see any reason to disrespect the person doing it.
.....The Qur'an supports women’s full agency, but this was downgraded in the Shari’a, possibly because in 7th century patriarchal Arabia the “boys’ club” took precedence.....
.....Professor Wadud said women’s rights are violated wherever Islamic jurisprudence is used to describe women as Allah’s ‘servants’ not his ‘agents’, making them second-class citizens beside men. Islamic law was intended to establish a system of social justice, but justice for women has never been fully expressed in terms of their agency before Allah.
The current jurisprudence, within which female believers have to operate, confirms women’s second status, so a new legal framework is needed.....
.......She described how many women face forced marriages and honour killings, and they are (incorrectly) told that these cultural practices are based on Islam. Muslim woman must denounce these elements, which are not Islamic practice, re-appropriating the religious debate and promoting the strong women who lived during the rise of Islam.
Currently, Muslim women are treated as second-class citizens, struggling for their rights and justice against sexual, racial and religious discrimination......
And the point is? She has a new business to promote, and her experience is not recognised by the majority of Americans in the "comments" section.
Anti-americanism is a form of racism.
7s7 Islam - Six Belges sur dix souhaitent l'interdiction des minarets (1039467)
Nearly 60% of the Belgians would support a ban on minarets, according to a poll. That's more than the 57% of Swiss people who voted for the ban a few days ago.
In fact, if a referendum occured, there would probably even more people voting for a ban, since people are often reluctant to say that they support "non-PC" ideas, as the swiss referendum showed.
Young people are more tolerant than the older ones, and so are the women.
Nearly 57% would favor a ban on mosques, and 61% don't want a mosque in their neighborhood.
The fact that the (rich) Flemish are more tolerant (only 34% would totally support a ban on minarets) than the (poorer) Walloons (44% totally agree with a ban) seems to prove what I'd been saying in the Swiss thread: prosperous communities are more open and tolerant than declining communities.
Or could some anti-Americanism be political-related ? I see a lot of French bashing going on in the U.S.A. as well.
.....For hundreds of years now, Europeans and Americans have created imagined versions of each other that have served all kinds of purposes, not least of which was to delineate a clear “other” for themselves. These mirror images have been rightly characterized as a “compulsive
folie a deux.” Yet there is an important difference in the respective agencies of this folie a deux on the two continents. In the United States the carriers of prejudice and antipathy toward Europe have predominated, if at all, in the lower social strata. In contrast, American elites – particularly cultural ones – have consistently extolled Europe, and continue to do so. This love for and
emulation of European tastes, mores, fashions and habits remained a staple of American elite culture even during the country’s most nativist and isolationist periods. Virtually all of America’s high brow culture continues to be European in derivation. One need only look at the humanities departments of any leading American university to observe this continuing cultural
hegemony, which remains European in orientation even as it attempts to negate its Eurocentrism. Any resentment of Europe by American mass opinion has been of a completely different order of magnitude than anti-Americanism’s presence in Europe. “Freedom fries” never had any traction
and “Europe” as well as “European” continue to conjure up quality, excellence, desirability, and “class” in most venues of the American vernacular. Terms analogous to “anti-Americanism” – such as “anti-Europism” or “anti-Europeanism” -- do not exist.....
How could it be racism if white Americans and Europeans are of the same race ?
edit: don't get me wrong, I strongly believe that any form of prejudice for any reason is despicable and inexcusable.
Oh come on. Because of one story, because of this one womans experience you have drafted a conclusion as to the "level of anti-americanism in Europe"?
Surely an intelligent opinion is formulated by the backing of various sources and/or personal experience? From what ive witnessed i can tell you this womans "experience" is an isolated one. There is no anti-US hate campaign in the UK. And you certainly dont recieve any special amounts of racism compared to other minorities, naturally.
Personally, I see no difference at all but the Jews insist that they are a race and not a religion. So I'll have to respect that.Please explain the phenotypical differences between european jews and europeans. They are virtually indistinguishable yet.......
Then you should agree with me. :mrgreen:
Just about a lifetime ago her story was my story. Please don't assume that just because I'm a redneck I've never been to europe.
Nor am I unaware of the current state of affairs between our peoples. My small town is filled to the brim with europeans. I hosted two find young men from estonia just a couple of years ago. It's not like we haven't been paying attention.
How could it be racism if white Americans and Europeans are of the same race ?.
And did you experience elevated levels of racism?
Actually, your very unaware of state affairs, clearly. You have taken out of context one womans experience of discrimination (as if Americans are picked out). She is in a foriegn country, there is going to be bias's, but the Americans do not recieve special attention. Same goes for any other European in the US. You are being paranoid and it serves no great purpose. You should step out of your shell and see things for what it is, not for what people tell you it is.
The Long-Burning Embers of Latent Anti-Americanism
On February 22, 2005, just one day before President Bush visited Mainz, Germany on his tour of Europe, this highly interesting interview was published in "Die Welt" on anti-Americanism in the German and European media. Here, now, is a full English translation:
Swaths Bombed Through Baghdad
How German media fall out of their role when reporting on the USA – A talk with anti-Americanism researcher Lutz Erbring
Everywhere that President Bush turns up these days on his trip to Europe he is received by public protests. At the beginning of his second term, the rift between Europe and the United States of America does not seem to have diminished, even though the diplomatic signs have since moved towards reconciliation..........snip.....
DIE WELT: How objective are the German media when it comes to reporting on, for example, the USA?
Lutz Erbring: It is amazing, but journalistic expectations of professionalism quickly go lost when it comes to reporting on foreign nations....... snip.... It happens entirely unconsciously, but is simply unprofessional.
DIE WELT: The line between news and opinion is not maintained?
Erbring: In reporting on foreign nations it is definitely significantly weaker. A whole lot of daily journalistic routines that maintain behavioral controls stop at the German border.
DIE WELT: Why?
Erbring: One can only speculate about the psychological mechanism.......snip..... Beyond the borders there is no learned restraint. It is empirically clearly provable that themes having to do with foreign politics are weighed with far less care.
DIE WELT: And that is how anti-American stereotypes come through in the media?
Erbring: We attempted to classify those stereotypes related to the USA that break through time and again. They range from arrogance to non-culture, double-standards, prudishness to superficiality and are transmitted and reinforced by media such as television, radio, newspapers and magazines. A favorite example for that was an ARD news program at the beginning of the invasion of Iraq about two years ago, when the moderator, I believe it was Anne Will, at a time when the active bombing was fully underway and the Americans were picking out military targets with high-tech equipment and "intelligent missiles," said: The American Air Force has again "bombed swaths through Baghdad." "Swaths" – The word naturally reminds many Germans of the carpet bombings in the Second World War. If one were to use such a formulation in the news about a controversial domestic political topic: The telephones would be ringing off the hooks. I am certain that in this case there was barely a call.
DIE WELT: What differences do you see between the right-wing and left-wing political spectrum in Germany?
Erbring: From the right comes more the diminishment of everything American in a cultural sense as flat, superficial, worthless, false, cheap and loud. In other words, that which seems to be a horror for every person of culture. From the left comes the anti-capitalistic related diminishment of everything American with anti-Coca-Cola cries and the perceived threat of McDonaldsification. But these streams of thought are actually not all that different when one takes a more precise look. In the media it remains pretty much the same.
DIE WELT: Where do the roots lie?
Erbring: The anti-Americanism related to culturalism is tied together with the European cultural arrogance that sees itself as the counterpiece to the America it perceives to be without culture, and its beginnings reach back into the 19th century. After the Second World War, it was initially not very strongly defined because of the impacts of the Marshall Plan and other US measures to help Germany. The view of America first became overshadowed in the German public again in the late sixties with the student unrest of 1968 and the worldwide protests against the war in Vietnam. In this period the term "Americanization" became a virulently negative word.
DIE WELT: The criticism of Bush is then, in line with that explanation, an escalation of old stereotypes?
Erbring: This newest form of anti-Americanism is marked, not insignificantly, by the especially high ability to irritate that President George W. Bush jr. possesses in the German and European public. At the end of 2003, shortly before the invasion of Iraq, only around nine percent of Germans still felt near to the Americans, 45 percent said: "America is distant to me." Five years prior to that, the relation was basically the opposite. The feeling reversed itself in the shortest time.
DIE WELT: Through the influence of the media?
Erbring: The media provide an interpretation, with potential political and cultural impacts, of complex phenomena for everyday life. On the other hand, the stereotypes must also already be present as a thought pattern among the media consumers. Only so can the silent agreement between broadcaster and consumer function when it comes to stereotypical shortcuts. There must, in other words, be a common denominator, otherwise the one would not understand what the other was saying.
DIE WELT: Can such thought patterns be changed?
Erbring: Our analysis has shown that personal experience does not protect against the sweeping use of stereotypes. Anti-Americanism therefore requires no Americans. Stereotypes live their own lives, are relatively immune to reality and resistant to change.
DIE WELT: No hope for improvement?
Erbring: In five years there will be a different President and Iraq will likely be pacified. That would naturally have impacts on the strength of the resentments that have fixed themselves onto certain individuals in the present situation. But beneath the surface smolder the long-burning embers of latent anti-Americanism. It has a long tradition and will remain, also when President Bush is no longer in office and Palestine is peaceful.
Mr. Erbring makes a point worth repeating: Anti-Americanism in the German media and society did not begin with, nor will it end with the Presidency of George W. Bush. President Bush is simply a convenient lighting-rod upon which the inherently anti-American elements in Germany and Europe can focus their hatreds without appearing to be anti-American on a wider scale. We've all heard it before. Many Europeans try to draw a clean and distinct dividing line when they say: "I am just anti-Bush, not anti-American."
But for many Europeans still filled with deep-seated anti-American resentments and condescension, this supposedly clean and distinct dividing line is often far more blurry than they would ever really care to admit...
No doubt Southern states traditionally hold more conservative, and right wing views. I side with your view that Western society is declining. But if you have a racist agenda pushing these ideas, or an anti-European agenda, you have no backing or sympathies from me, my friend.
I was shunned, treated as a pariah. When ashore I was surrounded by people. I have never been so alone in my life.
She isn't the only american experiencing discrimination. I was not the only 18 year old american to experience discrimination. It didn't start, or end with either of us. Anti-americanism in europe is old, ongoing, and insidious.
This article is from die welt. However, it could describe any country in western europe.
I have no agenda, racist or otherwise. I am merely sharing opinions for whatever it's worth. I actually like some europeans and crave your manufactured goods. This is a weakness of mine, I'm sorry to say. :3oops:
Why do you refer to us as enemies on the other side of the planet? You saved my continent from Hitler, and i love you for it. You stand for freedom and Demcracy, modernization and Westernism and i love you for it. Your in the ME fighting our enemies that use that place as a launch pad to kill our people, and i love you for it. Your building a missile defence shield for us, and I LOVE YOU FOR IT. See. Only a minority of us are out to get you lot.
I'm not. However, I am a realist. I'm aware of what is happening in the world and that includes europe. As for the rest of your post.....that attitude must make you just real popular with your fellow europeans. Aren't you afraid they won't play with you anymore?
Did you know why Hitler hated Jews so much? A jewish man dashed his dreams of becoming an artist, and he hated them for it. He convinced himself the Jews where all the same, "those zionists", yet everybody else had a Jewish friend and has been accepted by that university. Your doing the exact same thing. Im sorry you experienced racism - i really am. But you need to open your eyes and realize, it happens, and its not because im American, and its not true for the entire American population.
An interview with an anti-American bigot (who probably supports the EU, a mechanism against US influence). Whats your point dammit?
Actually many fellow Brits share the same opinions as me. I told you before, just because one snobby Jew never let you into the Academy of Arts, doesnt mean they are all snobby.
I've suspected that for quite some time now. There also seem to be some in continental europe too. Tell me, are you guys just severely outnumbered or just under represented in media and politics?
Racism isn't just something created by whites. Bias wasn't just invented by straight people. I think sometimes american liberals and european leftists forget that fine little point. Mira seems perfectly willing to excuse everything done by islamic fundamentalists as a direct result of racism in her culture. I'm perfectly willing to assume some in europe are racists, but not everyone. I'm also willing to assume many muslims want integration, especially the women, but not everyone. I'm not going to close my eyes to reality just because I'm afraid someone will accuse me of being a racist. Life is far more complicated than that.
I may be a southern redneck in good standing but, please, don't stereotype me. This isn't the south of my grandfathers.
Look i know where your coming from. Western culture is declining and actions do need to be taken. Im someone of Turkish decent, yet i inpart support the Swiss minaret ban, the large restriction of Muslim immigration into Europe and policies to boost native birth rates. Im not a racist either. I do however, realize the importance of restricting the mixture of another peoples who values are contrary to our own, which promote opression and sometimes inequality, and best ot restrict such movement as to avoid conflict and rise in right wing groups. At the end of the day we should have the realization that as Westeners our ideology is unique; it provides freedom and equality where it can for all. It protects our corner of the Earth from the opression everywhere else seems to be suffering from. If those such ideologies begin to invade our corner of the Earth, one shouldnt be labeled a racist to support actions to protect it, as long as it is irrelevant to religious (where secularism is concerned), sexual or ethnic orientation.
I didnt even know you was a southener until you mentioned it. Isnt redneck an insult?
I never wanted to play with Kaya at all.:shock:I'm not. However, I am a realist. I'm aware of what is happening in the world and that includes europe. As for the rest of your post.....that attitude must make you just real popular with your fellow europeans. Aren't you afraid they won't play with you anymore?
Then we have common ground. May I pm you? I have just about a thousand questions concerning islam. I would appreciate any insight you would have.
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