Outsourcing Helps the Poor

[bismitch]

"okay... the question is still unanswered... how would everyone get healthcare in a communist society? Who will pay the doctors, and who will pay for the medicine? especially if theres no currency system?"

Communism doesn't mean you can't trade with other nations to get the supplies you need like medicine. There are plenty of doctors in communist countries, they just don't have the same incentive as a capitalist country.

I personally don't agree with communism or complete capitalism (should be a mix of both).

 

[gynks2001]

"okay... the question is still unanswered... how would everyone get healthcare in a communist society? Who will pay the doctors, and who will pay for the medicine? especially if theres no currency system?"

Communism doesn't mean you can't trade with other nations to get the supplies you need like medicine. There are plenty of doctors in communist countries, they just don't have the same incentive as a capitalist country.

I personally don't agree with communism or complete capitalism (should be a mix of both).

that doesnt answer my question either... the question still is if theres no currency how will proper healthcare be provided to everyone? If theres no government, who will be the supplie, or the one who purchases the tools and medicines required. With no currency system, how can the proper medicine be delivered to the proper patient , where it has to travel hundreds of thousands of miles and is expensive in the first place?

 

[LeftyHenry]

that doesnt answer my question either... the question still is if theres no currency how will proper healthcare be provided to everyone? If theres no government, who will be the supplie, or the one who purchases the tools and medicines required. With no currency system, how can the proper medicine be delivered to the proper patient , where it has to travel hundreds of thousands of miles and is expensive in the first place?

who makes the medical equipment? The workers. Who builds the hospital? The workers. Who Feeds the doctor? The farmers. Who clothes the doctor? The workers. Who gives the doctor his free and quality education? The teachers. Who builds his house? The workers. Who provides electricity and heat in his home? The workers. Who makes the petty material things in his house? The workers. Who provides healthcare to the farmers, workers, and teachers in exchange for an education, food, a house, electricity, heat, electronics and every thing else he needs? The doctor

 

[bismitch]

In a communist country usually all of the medicine is made in the country, with the exeption of the leaders(they get the best from other countries). If the country is like Russia and is abundant with resources, they would not need foreign materials, so everything that could be needed could be produced in the nation. North Korea cant be communist without international humanitarian aid, beacause they dont have the farmland for their population.

 

[LeftyHenry]

In a communist country usually all of the medicine is made in the country, with the exeption of the leaders(they get the best from other countries). If the country is like Russia and is abundant with resources, they would not need foreign materials, so everything that could be needed could be produced in the nation. North Korea cant be communist without international humanitarian aid, beacause they dont have the farmland for their population.

North Korea is not communist and neither was Russia.

 

[bismitch]

Then why do you have the sickle and hammer in your signiture?

 

[gynks2001]

who makes the medical equipment? The workers. Who builds the hospital? The workers. Who Feeds the doctor? The farmers. Who clothes the doctor? The workers. Who gives the doctor his free and quality education? The teachers. Who builds his house? The workers. Who provides electricity and heat in his home? The workers. Who makes the petty material things in his house? The workers. Who provides healthcare to the farmers, workers, and teachers in exchange for an education, food, a house, electricity, heat, electronics and every thing else he needs? The doctor

nice dream... heres what would happen: the worker works all day supplying for the doctor. The doctor works all day helping the sick. The doctor works in an office with a roof over his head... farmer and worker work all day in hot conditions etc. people get sick... doctors become overwhelmed, too many patients not enough time, not enough medicine... Easy, get more doctors. More doctors means less workers. Same amount of people getting sick... now less workers to supply, oh crap, the medicine!! People dont get treated properly and become sick. They have to wait on lines for hours everyday just for basic needs such as food and drink, more people get sick... weeklong waits just to get a diagnosis from the overwhelmed doctors.
Your going to tell me this is a good system???

 

[SFLRN]

Wage-Slavery in America is working for a wage you have no control over and which everyday is a constant struggle to feed your family, pay the rent, etc... Under any system imaginable you do have to work to survive but only in capitalism can you work hard and sill not have enough to get by. People who have jobs which don't pay living wages, yet they probably work harder and longer than there white collar counterparts. 44% of Americans live on under 40,000 dollars a year. That is upsurd. You can't get by in most places and in many places that is dire poverty.

lol you have to be kidding me. 44% do live under the per capita income of the United States. Do you know anywhere else in the world with a higher per capita income? Sure people struggle, they've had to throughout history. But you don't have to worry about where your food comes from every day if you're lucky enough to live in America. We don't have the same mass starvation in the winter we had hundreds of years ago. 40,000 is not dire poverty by any account. Do you have actual statistics? This is your consistant problem , you never have any statistics from a reliable source. You choose your communist and anti-free trade sites to promote anti-free trade agenda. Sure everyone does have to struggle, but nature is made so we don't have a free ride. If everyone who works a job under a white collar worker works harder and longer wouldn't it make sense that they would simply go and get education if they are so hard working? Most blue collar people do struggle in some senses. But that does not mean we have mass starvation. Middle class never meant a free ride and it never will. Imagine if our ancestors decided to sit and whine about how they had to go out and get food every day. People have controls over their wages. If they do not like the wages the employer provides, they'll go somewhere else. But if to them the wage is good enough they work it. Why do you think that only teenagers and a few other people work fast food? Because no one else will stand for the less than desirable wages.

Like in the ghettos of America where it is a constant struggle to get by. That's not just one instance. There are many others. You're just not going to have many examples of that on record WHEN YOU WORK 15 HOURS FOR 15 DOLLARS AND CAN'T AFFORD TO RISK LOSING YOUR JOB! They actually are threatened by death. It's either slavery or starvation. In America it is far less severe but in those places the wages are so small you can't tell the difference. In fact, many sweatshop workers probably live in worse conditions than American slaves did. THIS IS AN UTTER VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS, YOU CANNOT DEFEND IT. I mean read the violations. Corporations like Wal-Mart have violated every human right from working overtime to child labor to beating workers who try to leave.

lol probably live a worse condition. Well I always love factually based assumptions. It is a violation of human rights and I didn't say we shouldn't advocate for better treatment of workers but that does not negate the fact that they choose to work in these factories. No one puts the gun to their head and says , hey we want 1,000 michael jordans asap, leave your village immediately. lol You don't have statistics and I already explained in posts back how free markets can lead to better economic outcomes for these people. Lets not forget the growing economy of China, where believe it or not, people are benefiting and I had an actual article where there was a middle class rising.

You choose to ignore them and that is fine by me. but don't debate economics if you have no economists, save one I already debunked, supporting your side whereas I have the majority of economists who stand on my side of the spectrum. Its like debating history and having no historians on your side but historians on the opposing side, it just does not make sense.

 

[LeftyHenry]

Then why do you have the sickle and hammer in your signiture?

because the hammer and sickle represents communism. Russia and China both aimed at communism and Russia was at one point socialist. Communism is often considered a branch in the socialist movement.

nice dream... heres what would happen: the worker works all day supplying for the doctor. The doctor works all day helping the sick. The doctor works in an office with a roof over his head... farmer and worker work all day in hot conditions etc. people get sick... doctors become overwhelmed, too many patients not enough time, not enough medicine... Easy, get more doctors. More doctors means less workers. Same amount of people getting sick... now less workers to supply, oh crap, the medicine!!

OMFG!!! IT"S GODZILLA APOCALPYSE OMFG!!! WE'RE ALL GOING DIE!!! ARGHHAHHAH!!! ROFLROFL:rofl:rofl

....










That was a joke right? wouldn't the same thing happen in capitalism lol
:spin:

People dont get treated properly and become sick. They have to wait on lines for hours everyday just for basic needs such as food and drink, more people get sick... weeklong waits just to get a diagnosis from the overwhelmed doctors.
Your going to tell me this is a good system???

No it's not. And that's the most upsurd arguement against communism ever!

think about this, we would have an excess of labor on our hands after the revolution. Why? Because basically any job which doesn't produce, won't be needed. Jobs in the marketing, banking, and other fields will not be needed so more workers could work on the same job and thus, everyone will work less.

 

[LeftyHenry]

SFLRN, I'm short on time, but here's my stats. It's a PDF. I hope the census beaurau isn't too biased for you.

http://censtats.census.gov/data/US/01000.pdf

Also while 40,000 is not Dire poverty, less than that, you really can't live in most places, and in the places you can live, you'll be struggling. Plus while 20,000 is the official poverty line, it's well a known fact that that stat is fool of **** and that poverty is more like 30-35,000.

 

[LeftyHenry]

gynks and bismitch,

here is a beginners guide to marxist economics. Please take a look at it.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lafargue/1903/xx/truths.htm

 

[gynks2001]

gynks and bismitch,

here is a beginners guide to marxist economics. Please take a look at it.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lafargue/1903/xx/truths.htm

:lol: :lol: :lol:
talk about propoganda:rofl

 

[gynks2001]

because the hammer and sickle represents communism. Russia and China both aimed at communism and Russia was at one point socialist. Communism is often considered a branch in the socialist movement.



OMFG!!! IT"S GODZILLA APOCALPYSE OMFG!!! WE'RE ALL GOING DIE!!! ARGHHAHHAH!!! ROFLROFL

....










That was a joke right? wouldn't the same thing happen in capitalism lol
:spin:



No it's not. And that's the most upsurd arguement against communism ever!

think about this, we would have an excess of labor on our hands after the revolution. Why? Because basically any job which doesn't produce, won't be needed. Jobs in the marketing, banking, and other fields will not be needed so more workers could work on the same job and thus, everyone will work less.

okay ill admit it was a weak argument... I wasnt thinking very clearly, I was just breaking from about 4 hours of work and my brain was on overdrive... Whatever, At least i can get paid!!:lol: :2razz:

 

[bismitch]

That is some messed up piece of a conversation. It said the master was always doing nothing and being paid an unnecesiary amount. Often it is the master who is working longer hours that demand more expertise and intelligence than the workers. The people who are successful have earned it by hard work. Another thing too, money isn't the sole part of peoples lives, there are many other factors such as relationships, experiences and accomplishments that make people happy. If you want to live a life making large sums of money and you have the talents needed to do so, there is really nothing stopping you especially in the U.S. I think that people with low wages should not complain about it(Usually it is because they no ambition and never went to college).

 

[gynks2001]

That is some messed up piece of a conversation. It said the master was always doing nothing and being paid an unnecesiary amount. Often it is the master who is working longer hours that demand more expertise and intelligence than the workers. The people who are successful have earned it by hard work. Another thing too, money isn't the sole part of peoples lives, there are many other factors such as relationships, experiences and accomplishments that make people happy. If you want to live a life making large sums of money and you have the talents needed to do so, there is really nothing stopping you especially in the U.S. I think that people with low wages should not complain about it(Usually it is because they no ambition and never went to college).

not necessarily the case... everyone wants to be a master, not everyone is.
Sometimes ambition works, other times people get unlucky. But, capitalist nations like the US are the only nations that ambitions CAN get you there.
The conversation lefty provided is hypocritical BS and full of communist propoganda... what is this, Oh the master does nothing so lets get rid of him... Hello, the master is paying you, without the master, then how hungry would you be? Without the master, you wouldnt have a job. The master paid for the tools, the master paid for the raw materials. One day you cant just decide to get rid of the people that are feuling our economy...its ludacris.

 

[SFLRN]

SFLRN, I'm short on time, but here's my stats. It's a PDF. I hope the census beaurau isn't too biased for you.

http://censtats.census.gov/data/US/01000.pdf

Also while 40,000 is not Dire poverty, less than that, you really can't live in most places, and in the places you can live, you'll be struggling. Plus while 20,000 is the official poverty line, it's well a known fact that that stat is fool of **** and that poverty is more like 30-35,000.

I don't doubt that 44 percent of Americans make under that. I was not saying you're biased on that. But what I am questioning is that workers who work those sweatshops and whether or not the overwhelming majority of them choose to do it. Meaning that no one forces them to join the factory. I would also like statistics on how it is the majority of Americans are struggling to survive, yes they have a hard time paying bills, but still, Americans live better than anyone else. Furthermore, the overall world GDP has skyrocketed over the years.

 

[LeftyHenry]

I don't doubt that 44 percent of Americans make under that. I was not saying you're biased on that. But what I am questioning is that workers who work those sweatshops and whether or not the overwhelming majority of them choose to do it. Meaning that no one forces them to join the factory. I would also like statistics on how it is the majority of Americans are struggling to survive, yes they have a hard time paying bills, but still, Americans live better than anyone else. Furthermore, the overall world GDP has skyrocketed over the years.

It's not a question of choice. Whether they willingly do it or not. It's the fact that there is no other option for most of these innercity impoverished people. It's either take the job or starve. I don't like GDP. GDP doesn't take into account a major factor. Distribution of wealth. China's GDP per cap has sky rocketed in the past 5 years but the living conditions for the vast majority have not changed the slightest bit. It's this new upper class of American executives and Chinese executives who hold major chunks of the wealth. Basically, to my knowledge distribution isn't really taken into account. However if you're talking about overall GDP than yes, you're right but that's natural when you have multinational corporations move in.

 

[LeftyHenry]

okay ill admit it was a weak argument... I wasnt thinking very clearly, I was just breaking from about 4 hours of work and my brain was on overdrive... Whatever, At least i can get paid!!:lol: :2razz:

ya I know that feeling

 

[LeftyHenry]

That is some messed up piece of a conversation. It said the master was always doing nothing and being paid an unnecesiary amount. Often it is the master who is working longer hours that demand more expertise and intelligence than the workers. The people who are successful have earned it by hard work.

What is the master producing? Nothing. What is he doing? bossing around the workers. Okay fair enough but why? The workers have been doing their jobs for their entire lives! I think they know what they're doing. They can run there business on a co-operative fashion where they calculate and divide there workload based on past statistics. Also, since there is no leech, or master, any more, they get his pay and they enjoy the full amount of the fruits of their labor. And I'm not the only one who thinks co-ops work. Many businesses nowadays work like that. Factories during the Russian Revolution who couldn't get supplies would trade with other factories by envoy and work through co-ops. This continued until 1919 or 21 depending on who's talking. Usually the manager does not work longer than the workers even if he does, he works in an air conditioned office with a comfortable chair and his feet on his desk. Meanwhile the worker is often doing back breaking work in smelly, dirty, and hot conditions. The work does not compare.

Another thing too, money isn't the sole part of peoples lives, there are many other factors such as relationships, experiences and accomplishments that make people happy. If you want to live a life making large sums of money and you have the talents needed to do so, there is really nothing stopping you especially in the U.S. I think that people with low wages should not complain about it(Usually it is because they no ambition and never went to college).

I'm sorry bro but not everyone can afford college. In fact alot of people can't. Getting into college is not that easy. Especially if you're poorly educated in this crappy public school system we have, and your parents have no money to spare. Many of these people do have ambitions. Everyone has ambitions. It's just the 'work hard, get rich' theory is bullshit.

Also, you'll see in countries like Cuba where education is free through the PhD level, there are a surplus of doctors, and good ones too. In fact it was Cuba who was the first to respond to Hurricane Katrina. Not FEMA. You know what the US gov't said to Cuba? No. We'd rather let them stay stranded. 7 days later we finally showed up...

 

[gynks2001]

What is the master producing? Nothing.

no... hes producing jobs and investing in an economy.

What is he doing? bossing around the workers. Okay fair enough but why? The workers have been doing their jobs for their entire lives! I think they know what they're doing.

No. Its not about whether or not you know what your doing. Its about the basics of economics which you seem not to understand...supply and demand. The Master decides what type of product he wants to produce, how many he wants to produce, etc...

They can run there business on a co-operative fashion where they calculate and divide there workload based on past statistics. Also, since there is no leech, or master, any more, they get his pay and they enjoy the full amount of the fruits of their labor.

Okay... And who will decide what type of product will be produced and how many etc... Also, sure, they get paid evenly but someone needs to pay for whatever raw materials are needed, the tools that are needed, and the maintence needs of some of the tools...I.e, computers.

 

[LeftyHenry]

no... hes producing jobs and investing in an economy.

That's just capitalism. In a socialist economy, that is controlled by the need within the community. The workers can create jobs too and in a system with out money, the only investment is labor and distributution. He is a leech.

No. Its not about whether or not you know what your doing. Its about the basics of economics which you seem not to understand...supply and demand. The Master decides what type of product he wants to produce, how many he wants to produce, etc...

They can run there business on a co-operative fashion where they calculate and divide there workload based on past statistics. Also, since there is no leech, or master, any more, they get his pay and they enjoy the full amount of the fruits of their labor.

did you forget to read this ^

Okay... And who will decide what type of product will be produced and how many etc... Also, sure, they get paid evenly but someone needs to pay for whatever raw materials are needed, the tools that are needed, and the maintence needs of some of the tools...I.e, computers.

The worker soviets (councils) will decide what to produce and how many. They will take past statistics and will decide on that and whether they can produce more, how much raw material they'll need etc...

My "propaganda" article as you called it outlines it really well.

Lets say we want to make a chair.

What do we need?

-wood
-labor
-saws
-machinery
-workshop

etc...

who are the lumber jacks? Workers. Who are the people-who-make-saws (forgot what they're called lol)? Workers. Who are the carpenters? Workers. Who makes the machinery? Workers... You see the chain? I had the same problem with marxist economics until I really thought about it.

 

[gynks2001]

That's just capitalism. In a socialist economy, that is controlled by the need within the community. The workers can create jobs too and in a system with out money, the only investment is labor and distributution. He is a leech.





did you forget to read this ^



The worker soviets (councils) will decide what to produce and how many. They will take past statistics and will decide on that and whether they can produce more, how much raw material they'll need etc...

My "propaganda" article as you called it outlines it really well.

Lets say we want to make a chair.

What do we need?

-wood
-labor
-saws
-machinery
-workshop

etc...

who are the lumber jacks? Workers. Who are the people-who-make-saws (forgot what they're called lol)? Workers. Who are the carpenters? Workers. Who makes the machinery? Workers... You see the chain? I had the same problem with marxist economics until I really thought about it.

the problem youll eventually encounter is technology. Thruought history technology has improved by ideas of entrepeneurs and independent thinkers, or, 'Masters'. These masters make decisions that can help their business grow. People who work in a communist or socialist society do not enjoy the full fruits of their labor because they have to split with everyone else. Think about it, if you work the hardest out of everyone, but the money/earnings you make, you have to split with everyone else. In a capitalist economy, the worker doesnt make as much as the master, but if hes seen as the hardest worker, many times the 'master' will grant him a raise or promotion as a form of influence.
Another thing is in a communist or social economy, theres never a threat of losing your job... If theres no risk of losing your job and/or starve...whats going to motivate you? a capitalist society allows more people to be employed, more competition amongst businesses, which usually leads to an influence on greater technology and pricing....

 

[LeftyHenry]

the problem youll eventually encounter is technology. Thruought history technology has improved by ideas of entrepeneurs and independent thinkers, or, 'Masters'. These masters make decisions that can help their business grow. People who work in a communist or socialist society do not enjoy the full fruits of their labor because they have to split with everyone else. Think about it, if you work the hardest out of everyone, but the money/earnings you make, you have to split with everyone else. In a capitalist economy, the worker doesnt make as much as the master, but if hes seen as the hardest worker, many times the 'master' will grant him a raise or promotion as a form of influence.
Another thing is in a communist or social economy, theres never a threat of losing your job... If theres no risk of losing your job and/or starve...whats going to motivate you? a capitalist society allows more people to be employed, more competition amongst businesses, which usually leads to an influence on greater technology and pricing....

I get those questions alot. The easiest explanation to incentive would be Labor Time Vouchers however there are other incentives. Also ther would most likely be a system of work quotas and punishments. If you fail to meet your work quota once, you get a warning and the worker council where quotas are assigned will find out what the problem is and work it out. If that doesn't work, than there needs to be some sort of punishment. The third time the punishment would be more severe. ie temporary lose your right to vote and jail as more severe punishment while lesser punishments may be tougher jobs and less rations or something like that. In reality, slacking won't be a problem in communist economy because everyone is tied together. You slack off, your workload is dumped on the guy next to you and the guy next to him. You think they're going to be happy with that? most likely they'll act.

Technology is another story. First, most technology is not made for profit. Second, alot of inventors are random amatuers. Third, Labor Time VOuchers could apply to science. And fourth, unlike in capitalism, all education, rent, food, and everything else is paid for while someone studies. While they learn in school, society is supporting them. All that's asked in repayment, is to contribute to the community.

 

[bismitch]

Theoritically, yes a communist society would work, but human nature cannot be canned to prevent greed, laziness, and selfishness. People find ways to take advantage of the system(political friends). There is no way to prevent this and this is the reason why communism cannot work. Humans aren't perfect and they need the competitive nature of a free market economy to motivate them to their fullest potential.

 

[LeftyHenry]

Theoritically, yes a communist society would work, but human nature cannot be canned to prevent greed, laziness, and selfishness. People find ways to take advantage of the system(political friends). There is no way to prevent this and this is the reason why communism cannot work. Humans aren't perfect and they need the competitive nature of a free market economy to motivate them to their fullest potential.

human nature is a bourgieous myth. You are not born a materialist consumerist who cannot survive without that plasma screen tv. On the contrary, you are shaped by your surroundings and the conditions you grow up in. If I grow up in a culture where I'm bombarded everyday with commercials, billboards, MTV and other materialist **** than yes I will most likely will be greedy. However, if I grow up in a hunter-gatherer tribe sharing everything with the rest of the tribe, than no I will not be Greedy. A society which encourages the equality and selflessness will eventually be made up of people who are not greedy.