Outrage as trans middle school athlete wins girls’ shot put event by more than 3 feet

[Pyrite]

Because they are forcing females to compete against stronger faster men.

Interesting. Now, prove your claim: copies and pastes from credible sources to which you provide the links.

 

[eohrnberger]

I’m disgusted that @VySky is here posting about a CHILD playing sports and being outraged about a 13 year old trans CHILD that’s been taking puberty blockers since elementary school. Legally has a BIRTH CERTIFICATE listing as a girl and has been taken puberty blockers since age 8 - therefore never having undergone male puberty.

But wait! This can't be! @Lisa posted that this simply doesn't happen, under aged puberty blockers.

But hey…bigotry knows no age limit.

Leave the kid alone.


I can’t imagine how hard it must be for this child to have had the courage to compete in this meet AND not break down crying when students on the other team wouldn’t even compete. 8th grade. 13 years old.

And already on the receiving end of vile hatred and now in the spotlight and crosshairs of bigots.

Bravo. Now mocking literal trans children

 

[Pyrite]

Biological males should not be competing in athletics against biological females.

Fortunately for you, the study I cited has this to say: "Trans women are not biological men."

 

[Pyrite]

The study you cite suffers from some serious limitations. First of all, hand strength, jumping ability, and lung functioning is not demonstrated to be causally linked to greater performative athleticism in general or specifically to any sport. It's not even demonstrated to be correlated to greater athletic ability. Overall strength, endurance, and speed can be linked to greater athleticism in many sports, as can hand-eye coordination and response time. There are of course many other variables that could be measured that are specifically linked to greater athleticism, but instead they chose three very arbitrary measurements that don't really relate to overall athletic performance in any popular sport. Also, another significant flaw is that they did not control the extraneous variable of body fat between the different groups, so the CW group had lower fat mass than the TW group. So, yes, CW women who have less body fat and therefore a higher muscle mass will have greater strength in some areas and will also have better cardiovascular health. It's almost like they took a group of fit/athletic cisgender women and compared them to trans females with average to above average physiological mass. That's a major threat to the validity of the conclusions being drawn.

Here are some other studies on the topic that take a greater look at the breadth of research and performative variables.

1) We report that the performance gap between males and females becomes significant at puberty and often amounts to 10–50% depending on sport. The performance gap is more pronounced in sporting activities relying on muscle mass and explosive strength, particularly in the upper body. Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed. Sports organizations should consider this evidence when reassessing current policies regarding participation of transgender women in the female category of sport.

2) Testosterone drives much of the enhanced athletic performance of males through in utero, early life, and adult exposure. Many anatomical sex differences driven by testosterone are not reversible. Hemoglobin levels and muscle mass are sensitive to adult life testosterone levels, with hemoglobin being the most responsive. Studies in transgender women, and androgen-deprivation treated cancer patients, show muscle mass is retained for many months, even years, and that co-comittant exercise mitigates muscle loss. Given that sports are currently segregated into male and female divisions because of superior male athletic performance, and that estrogen therapy will not reverse most athletic performance parameters, it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology.

3) The 15–31% athletic advantage that transwomen displayed over their female counterparts prior to starting gender affirming hormones declined with feminising therapy. However, transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women’s events.

Of course, there are limitations on this study. However, so far, it's about all I've seen here recently.

Where are yours? Copies and pastes of excerpts from credible sources - news articles, preferably, as I am not a physician - to which you provide the links.

(Sorry, someone's "word" isn't good enough.)

 

[Pyrite]

I have always argued that not all trans-girls will beat all girls.

I would have 8 of these National Records if I competed again girls in High School. As I am a guy and competed against guys though? I have none.

Ah, born too soon.....

(Of course, had you been alive in Berlin during the Weimar Republic, you might have had better opportunities, because transgender females had legal recognition.)

 

[Hello My Son]

Of course, there are limitations on this study. However, so far, it's about all I've seen here recently.

Significant flaws, to be precise. That study failed to equalize variable components such as overall fitness across comparison groups. That is a fatal flaw when you are comparing athleticism and physical prowess between comparison groups.

Where are yours? Copies and pastes of excerpts from credible sources - news articles, preferably, as I am not a physician - to which you provide the links.

(Sorry, someone's "word" isn't good enough.)

Huh? Did you not see in the post that you quoted that I linked directly to three separate studies from respected journals?

 

[Pyrite]

Significant flaws, to be precise. That study failed to equalize variable components such as overall fitness across comparison groups. That is a fatal flaw when you are comparing athleticism and physical prowess between comparison groups.



Huh? Did you not see in the post that you quoted that I linked directly to three separate studies from respected journals?

Huh?

Nope. You didn't manage to ID your copies and pastes. Nor do I know that your journals are "respected". (Yeah, more than a few of us understand that just using the word "journal" to describe a source doesn't automatically confer credibility/respectability on it.) Hence my request for news articles - it's so much easier to ascertain credibility. (I don't have to bother my grown kids for info re this or that journal.)

Btw, I'm very interested in the fact my little old study has brought such....pushback from a handful of posters.

 

[Pyrite]

But wait! This can't be! @Lisa posted that this simply doesn't happen, under aged puberty blockers.

What is this - "under aged puberty blockers" - supposed to mean?

(Is it possible you are talking about a subject without knowing much or anything about it?)

 

[Hello My Son]

Huh?

Nope. You didn't manage to ID your copies and pastes. Nor do I know that your journals are "respected". (Yeah, more than a few of us understand that just using the word "journal" to describe a source doesn't automatically confer credibility/respectability on it.) Hence my request for news articles - it's so much easier to ascertain credibility. (I don't have to bother my grown kids for info re this or that journal.)

I linked to studies from The British Journal of Sports Medicine, International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health, and Sports Medicine, all of which are very reputable journals. All meet the criteria to be linked to hosted by the National Library of Medicine, which has rigid standards for inclusion (two of the links were directly to the NLM).

News articles are far less reliable than the primary source of a study. You're seriously relying on a journalist who is neither a trained researcher nor an expert in the area being studied to analyze and interpret journal articles for you?!

Btw, I'm very interested in the fact my little old study has brought such....pushback from a handful of posters.

Well, I am a trained researcher. The entire point of engaging in research is to critique and discuss it rather than have blind faith in it. It's not a religion. It's a logical, statistical, analytical, and empirical process. Peer-review is the name of the game. If peer evaluation is something that a person cannot comprehend or perform themselves, then they don't belong in the rigorous analytical discussion about research findings.

 

[medi]

Good lord what idiot would feed their 8 year old kid puberty blockers?

That should be criminal. Really.

Here's where I'll break my usual routine with these sorts of threads and post a thought before I am finished reading all posts (and going back to reread when I have doubts of understanding).

As I have tried to understand the reason for the thread and the opinions posted it has been slowly entering my brain as to what laws allow for parents (a parent) to do that thing with changing what it seems is a sort of natural world thing --- that being born as a certain gender is what I view as a "natural world" thing.

What I mean is that I hadn't seen anyone provide any actual knowledge of the legal procedure of this changing of a minor's gender. All you folks posting up to the post I quoted seemed to be just accepting that the laws of West Virginia governing this are all rightly established, which was slowly surprising me.

And I will be straight up that I think it is going too far to be viewing the parents as idiots, or having engaged in criminal-like behaviour; BUT I am wondering how that law got on that state's books? And how long it has been there? And just how many other states have similar laws? And where does federal law fit into this whole picture?

Now I sure as heck ain't no lawyer type and sure as heck can't state I have never done unlawful things and all that, BUT when some legal area of the planet starts stating that it is legal to change an 8-year-old's gender with some sort of chemical stuff I start having some concerns about where the law has a borderline in that area. AND I start to wonder how in the heck the parents (the parent) got permission to start all that? I'd assume the medical folks would have to be in on the start, yes? So then I'd start to wonder what sort of special schooling those medical professionals would be required to have to start that procedure? And that has me wondering how many years BEFORE the "puberty blockers" were started did that initial approval procedure start?

I have my doubts as to just how well developed an 8-year-old's understanding of all this could be to be performing that, but given the whole process had to have started a fair number of months or longer before the actual "blockers" were started has me wondering even more.

Up to where that quoted text showed up I hadn't seen any of you posting any information about any answers to my questions, but then I might have missed something. Or jumped too quickly into asking.

And I must be straight with my fellow DebatePolitics Community members, I am obviously way, way out of touch with my own nation. I'm learning things around here that I did not know about the United States. I'm not referring to things we can pick up from some media posting in some publication. I mean the way my fellow U.S. citizens study social issues these days. These threads are teaching me how you folks study things, even if some of you want to state you are only commenting and don't really care one way or the other. And that implies I only pay attention to the thoughts posted by U.S. citizens, but that isn't the case. Just happens to be that in this thread it is a U.S. state that is under the microscope.

Anyway, 8-years-old and changing the gender in some sort of legal manner. That is a rough one for me to handle. But I admit to being an old fart who might not be properly up with the times. But I'm trying to learn. Problem is I keep asking too many stupid questions, don't I?

 

[Bodi]

Ah, born too soon.....

(Of course, had you been alive in Berlin during the Weimar Republic, you might have had better opportunities, because transgender females had legal recognition.)

... and they were a beacon of good leadership... LOL

 

[Bodi]

Legally has a BIRTH CERTIFICATE listing as a girl

So they got her a new Birth Certificate? That is not evidence of anything biological, BTW.

and has been taken puberty blockers since age 8 - therefore never having undergone male puberty.

But hey…bigotry knows no age limit.

Agreed. There are tons of bigots her that hate females and females sports.

Leave the kid alone.

You should have told that to the parents drugging their kid at such a young age.

I can’t imagine how hard it must be for this child to have had the courage to compete in this meet AND not break down crying when students on the other team wouldn’t even compete. 8th grade. 13 years old.

It is not the duty of everybody to change sports, at least.

And already on the receiving end of vile hatred and now in the spotlight and crosshairs of bigots.

Lots of people are.

 

[Pyrite]

... and they were a beacon of good leadership... LOL

The Weimar Republic, not the Kaiser and his crew, not Hitler and his thugs.

 

[Pyrite]

So they got her a new Birth Certificate? That is not evidence of anything biological, BTW.

Agreed. There are tons of bigots her that hate females and females sports.

You should have told that to the parents drugging their kid at such a young age.

It is not the duty of everybody to change society for the needs of an extreme minority that is sad, regarding something like sports, at least.

Lots of people are. That does not mean that we hurt other people in order to make up for the hurt of that individual.

Do you know when puberty blockers are taken?

 

[medi]

That's a thick neck. Arms are large. Oh, wait... he's got long hair and pink on his shirt! Well, totally female then.

Sticking my stupid two-cents further into this causes me to do this post.

I also felt I was seeing some rather well-developed limbs when I saw that picture earlier in the thread, but I figured I best finish studying all the posts. And on this one I feel I have a tad bit of experience at making assessments of possible athletic ability of another human, as I was a TKD instructor for many years and when it comes time to do the coaching one needs to do during a tournament one starts to develop a kind of looking over a given opponent. I reckon many of you will state I am reading like a stupid old man, but that kid does not look like a female from the neck down.

Just an observation. Not even sure why I am posting this observation. Probably a stupid post.

 

[Bodi]

The Weimar Republic, not the Kaiser and his crew, not Hitler and his thugs.

I am a history major... I know about the Weimar Republic ... that is why I mocked them.

 

[Bodi]

Do you know when puberty blockers are taken?

You are assuming that they are good to give... and don't ask such a stupid question. Jeez...

What in the hell is wrong with this lady/mother person?

 

[Pyrite]

I am a history major... I know about the Weimar Republic ... that is why I mocked them.

Yeah, I guess mocking an attempt at democratic government - after Germany's defeat in WWI - is what a history major would do....

 

[Pyrite]

You are assuming that they are good to give... and don't ask such a stupid question. Jeez...

So, you don't know when puberty blockers are given to transgenders.

I'm not surprised.

 

[Bodi]

Yeah, I guess mocking an attempt at democratic government - after Germany's defeat in WWI - is what a history major would do....

For ****'s sake... I did not mock there "attempt" at government... I mocked their incompetency... are you able to tell the difference? Because academics can.

 

[Bodi]

So, you don't know when puberty blockers are given to transgenders.

I'm not surprised.

What did I say about puberty blockers that gave that away?

Dude, you post some seriously stupid shit.

 

[Pyrite]

For ****'s sake... I did not mock there "attempt" at government... I mocked their incompetency... are you able to tell the difference? Because academics can.

I haven't claimed to be an "academic".

As for the "incompetency" of the Weimar Republic: well, perhaps you don't know that democratic government was more or less an experiment in Germany. That the country was economically devastated by the peace treaty, that most Germans didn't realize the war was going against them, which meant the "stab in the back" lie was able to take root pretty easily, and that the death knell for the Republic was the Great Depression.

 

[Pyrite]

What did I say about puberty blockers that gave that away?

Dude, you post some seriously stupid shit.

You didn't answer the question about when puberty blockers are given.

Hey, I don't care whether you know the response. I'm just interested in determining who has a handle on the basics here....

 

[Slartibartfast]

You don't care about girls now?

Correct. You are the one mad at somebody standing up for young girls and Title 9...

Nope, not mad about that. My view is that this is an overblown concern. A mountain out of a molehill.

This is simply something that will take society some time to work out as we have the tech and it’s not going to change at this point. Until then, we will see people try to use it to manufacture outrage.

 

[Bodi]

I haven't claimed to be an "academic".

Or a Psych Major, I hope.

As for the "incompetency" of the Weimar Republic: well, perhaps you don't know that democratic government was more or less an experiment in Germany. That the country was economically devastated by the peace treaty, that most Germans didn't realize the war was going against them, which meant the "stab in the back" lie was able to take root pretty easily, and that the death knell for the Republic was the Great Depression.

You like to try and tell people what you think that they don't know instead of showing a quote proving that they did not know.

You didn't answer the question about when puberty blockers are given.

Hey, I don't care whether you know the response. I'm just interested in determining who has a handle on the basics here....

I did not answer your idiotically simple question, for a reason, BTW, and that leads you to conclude that I do not know when puberty blockers are given and why? LOL You should be ashamed at even asking the question, not trying to insinuate that others do not know the answer.