Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

PeteEU · Jul 3, 2011

Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges | World news | The Guardian

Amanda Kimbrough is one of the women who have been ensnared as a result of the law being applied in a wholly different way. During her pregnancy her foetus was diagnosed with possible Down's syndrome and doctors suggested she consider a termination, which Kimbrough declined as she is not in favour of abortion.

The baby was delivered by caesarean section prematurely in April 2008 and died 19 minutes after birth.

Six months later Kimbrough was arrested at home and charged with "chemical endangerment" of her unborn child on the grounds that she had taken drugs during the pregnancy – a claim she has denied

Seriously what is wrong with parts of America these days? Throwing women in jail for live for having still births or premature births? Not even the freaking Taliban and Iranian mullahs do this!

SmokeAndMirrors · Jul 3, 2011

Wow, that is just beyond disgusting. I have no words.

Not only legally bludgeoning women who have already lost something, but punishing them for mental illness or acting as though miscarriages only happen in drug abusers?

I just... I have no words.

Renae · Jul 3, 2011

Gibbs became pregnant aged 15, but lost the baby in December 2006 in a stillbirth when she was 36 weeks into the pregnancy. When prosecutors discovered that she had a cocaine habit – though there is no evidence that drug abuse had anything to do with the baby's death – they charged her with the "depraved-heart murder" of her child, which carries a mandatory life sentence.

Gee larry, you think maybe cocaine was in play here?

Bei Bei Shuai, 34, has spent the past three months in a prison cell in Indianapolis charged with murdering her baby. On 23 December she tried to commit suicide by taking rat poison after her boyfriend abandoned her.

Shuai was rushed to hospital and survived, but she was 33 weeks pregnant and her baby, to whom she gave birth a week after the suicide attempt and whom she called Angel, died after four days. In March Shuai was charged with murder and attempted foeticide and she has been in custody since without the offer of bail.

Rat poison... dead baby...

Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges | World news | The Guardian

It helps to read the story here. Be irresponsible... kill someone, suffer the penalty.

SmokeAndMirrors · Jul 3, 2011

And if you had bolded the following sentence of the next sentence, it goes on to say there is no evidence the stillbirth was a result of cocaine use. Even if it had, as the article says, there is no legal basis for these prosecutions. And the same applies to this as below...

As to the second, the woman was severely mentally ill. Healthy people don't try to kill themselves. In fact, most healthy people have a hard time taking a pin to their arm, let alone drinking poison. This is basically punishment for mental illness. We did that in the Dark Ages.

This is sick. It turns out there is nothing you can do to turn yourself into a piece of meat in the eyes of others faster in this country than get pregnant.

P.S. As to the third case, they have no evidence of any sort of negative behavior at all. So they're basically trying to lock her up for having a miscarriage.

CaptainCourtesy · Jul 3, 2011

This is very tricky. If the baby is born live, but then dies, and the cause of death is directly related to the actions of the mother during pregnancy, I suppose some sort of charges would be appropriate. But this opens up a huge can of worms. Let's say they find a direct link between ADD and women who smoke cigarettes during pregnancy. Any child with ADD could now sue their parents for some sort of abuse/neglect/endangerment. Though I agree that in some cases, charging the women in these cases is appropriate, I don't like where this could head.

Jetboogieman · Jul 3, 2011

I may have to side with Mr V. on this one.

But it's still a tricky one.

There would have to be definitive evidence that the Rat Poison and the Cocaine contributed to the death of the child. And it would need to be determined what the condition of the child was before birth in its developing stages.

The cocaine, may not be an issue, crack babies born everyday.

The rat poison on the other hand, is the crux of the matter.

I'm not one to judge those who want to end their lives, it shows a lack of balance and extreme emotional and mental trauma in their lives. And in this case its really confounded because you're adding the baby to the equation.

However I believe murder needs intent, you have to actually WANT to kill the child, and I don't think you can make a case for that.

Manslaughter in some degree, negligent manslaughter/homocide, something like that, but murder might be a bit of a stretch.

In the end, locking this woman up is not going to bring that baby back, it's not going to make her a better person, she's likely going to become more bitter, sustain more emotional and mental trauma, and the end result may be suicide anyway. I don't believe she is a bad person with an intent on harming other human beings, she already opted away from abortion.

Tricky one.

Renae · Jul 3, 2011

MistressNomad said:
And if you had bolded the following sentence of the next sentence, it goes on to say there is no evidence the stillbirth was a result of cocaine use. Even if it had, as the article says, there is no legal basis for these prosecutions. And the same applies to this as below...

As to the second, the woman was severely mentally ill. Healthy people don't try to kill themselves. In fact, most healthy people have a hard time taking a pin to their arm, let alone drinking poison. This is basically punishment for mental illness. We did that in the Dark Ages.

This is sick. It turns out there is nothing you can do to turn yourself into a piece of meat in the eyes of others faster in this country than get pregnant.

P.S. As to the third case, they have no evidence of any sort of negative behavior at all. So they're basically trying to lock her up for having a miscarriage.

What are the risks with use of cocaine during pregnancy?
Cocaine use during pregnancy can affect a pregnant woman and her baby in many ways. During the early months of pregnancy, cocaine may increase the risk of miscarriage. Later in pregnancy, it may trigger preterm labor (labor that occurs before 37 completed weeks of pregnancy) or cause the baby to grow poorly. As a result, cocaine-exposed babies are more likely than unexposed babies to be born prematurely and with low birthweight. Premature and low-birthweight babies are at increased risk of health problems during the newborn period, lasting disabilities such as mental retardation and cerebral palsy, and even death. Cocaine-exposed babies also tend to have smaller heads, which generally reflect smaller brains and an increased risk of learning problems (8).

Some studies suggest that cocaine-exposed babies are at increased risk of birth defects involving the urinary tract and, possibly, other birth defects (9, 10). Cocaine may cause an unborn baby to have a stroke, which can result in irreversible brain damage and sometimes death.

Cocaine use during pregnancy can cause placental problems, including placental abruption. In this condition, the placenta pulls away from the wall of the uterus before labor begins. This can lead to heavy bleeding that can be life threatening for both mother and baby. The baby may be deprived of oxygen and adequate blood flow when an abruption occurs. Prompt cesarean delivery, however, can prevent most deaths but may not prevent serious complications for the baby caused by lack of oxygen.

After birth, some babies who were regularly exposed to cocaine before birth may have mild behavioral disturbances. As newborns, some are jittery and irritable, and they may startle and cry at the gentlest touch or sound (11). These babies may be difficult to comfort and may be withdrawn or unresponsive. Other cocaine-exposed babies “turn off” surrounding stimuli by going into a deep sleep for most of the day. Generally, these behavioral disturbances are temporary and resolve over the first few months of life (11).

Cocaine-exposed babies may be more likely than unexposed babies to die of SIDS. However, studies suggest that poor health practices that often accompany maternal cocaine use (such as use of other drugs and smoking) may play a major role in these deaths (12).

Illicit drug use during pregnancy | Pregnancy | March of Dimes

I don't believe that making an irrational decision is "mentally ill", sometimes people just do stupid ****.

There is also nothing but this rather biased stories commentary on her case, the police say she did, she says she didn't. Or are you implying that the police are just making **** up?

Finally, your false belief being Pregnant is somehow looked up negatively in America. THATS UTTER BULL****. Being IRRESPONSIBLE and Pregnant, is looked upon negatively.

TUSCUMBIA -- A northwest Alabama woman has pleaded guilty to causing the death of her newborn son by using methamphetamine three days before he was born.

Amanda Helaine Borden Kimbrough entered the plea Wednesday. She accepted a plea deal after prosecutors finished presenting their case during her trial in Colbert County, the TimesDaily in Florence reported.

A judge sentenced the 30-year-old Russellville woman to 10 years in prison on a charge of chemical endangerment of a child. She could have been sentenced to life imprisonment without the plea deal.

Timmy Wayne Kimbrough lived for only a few minutes after being born in April 2008. Despite the plea, Kimbrough plans to appeal. Her attorney claims Alabama's child endangerment law doesn't apply to unborn children.

Northwest Alabama woman pleads guilty in death of her baby by using meth before his birth | al.com

She took meth prior to his death.

Renae · Jul 3, 2011

Don't get me wrong, I have every fear that CC and Jet do of abuse of this system, but three examples we're given are a cocaine addict, an idiot that decided to eat some Rat Poison, and a meth head.

Not really the sort to generate much in the way of sympathy.

Their children however, I mourn for.

SmokeAndMirrors · Jul 3, 2011

Jetboogieman - The woman who attempted suicide was a different woman. The article talked about 3 cases. One where the woman used cocaine, one where she tried to kill herself, and one where she did nothing at all but is being charged with chemical abuse despite no evidence of chemical abuse.

MrV - It doesn't matter. The investigation concluded it was not caused by cocaine use.

Please. People of your ilk would like to see women have fewer rights than a clump of a dozen cells. You're perfectly ok with convicting a woman of murder for a stillbirth even with NO evidence it was caused by any activity of the woman. In the case of the third woman, there was no evidence of any chemical use at all. You're also ok with locking away the mentally ill.

EDIT: What? That's an entirely different woman from the one in the OP. She even lives in a different state.

stelz · Jul 3, 2011

Holy crap.

These idiots need to stop bellyaching about Muslim extremists. They're the same way.

PeteEU · Jul 3, 2011

MrVicchio said:
Illicit drug use during pregnancy | Pregnancy | March of Dimes

I don't believe that making an irrational decision is "mentally ill", sometimes people just do stupid ****.

There is also nothing but this rather biased stories commentary on her case, the police say she did, she says she didn't. Or are you implying that the police are just making **** up?

Would not be the first time. Election year, dead baby and possible irresponsible mother = vote winner in some circles.

Finally, your false belief being Pregnant is somehow looked up negatively in America. THATS UTTER BULL****. Being IRRESPONSIBLE and Pregnant, is looked upon negatively.

The prosecutors are using laws that was intended to punish men who beat the crap out of women so they loose their babies... the men are not being charged but the women are!

And what is irresponsible behaviour? Smoking? Drinking a bit of wine? Jaywalking?

Like it or not, women are being charged with murder where the cause of death is near impossible to quantify. On top of loosing a child they now risk going to jail for life because of a ****ed up legal system that allows prosecutors to use religious and political agendas to punish "sinners"... ... what a ****ed up country.

Women loose babies all the time and in most cases it has nothing to do with the actions of the mother..... my mother lost her first child to a miss-carriage... should she be charged because she worked in a hair-dresser and maybe the chemicals there might have caused her to abort?

CaptainCourtesy · Jul 3, 2011

MrVicchio said:
Don't get me wrong, I have every fear that CC and Jet do of abuse of this system, but three examples we're given are a cocaine addict, an idiot that decided to eat some Rat Poison, and a meth head.

Not really the sort to generate much in the way of sympathy.

Their children however, I mourn for.

Here's another slippery slope scenario. Woman is arrested for cocaine possession. At the time of her arrest, she admits to being pregnant. If she is then, also charged with endangering the welfare of a child, the law has no identified the fetus as having rights. This might be used to invalidate Roe v. Wade. Now, on the one hand, this woman in this scenario is certainly doing something dangerous to the fetus. On the other, what she is doing is very different than legal/voluntary abortion.

This is not an issue I would want to touch, legally. It is so wrangled in so many different facets and perceptions that the complications could go on forever.

Jetboogieman · Jul 3, 2011

MistressNomad said:
It doesn't matter. The investigation concluded it was not caused by cocaine use.

Sorry I speed read.

If that's the case. Then she should not be charged with anything IMHO.

GPS_Flex · Jul 3, 2011

PeteEU said:
Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges | World news | The Guardian

Seriously what is wrong with parts of America these days? Throwing women in jail for live for having still births or premature births? Not even the freaking Taliban and Iranian mullahs do this!

I question the accuracy of your claim that Iran and/or the Taliban wouldn’t lock a woman up for this. Abortion is illegal in Iran, except when the mother’s life is in danger, and drug use is illegal too.

If nothing else, the drug use alone in Iran could get her anything from the death penalty to 70 lashes.

I think the punishment is too extreme in the cited case but I have a hard time feeling sorry for a woman who is addicted to drugs and doesn’t go get an abortion when she finds out she is pregnant.

SmokeAndMirrors · Jul 3, 2011

The slippery slope has already happened. There is no evidence one of the women did anything to endanger the fetus at all. She is being charged with it anyway out of the clear blue sky.

I don't find this complicated at all. A fetus does not have the same rights as a person. No logical argument supports that conclusion. But even if that weren't the case, even if you for some reason think a fetus has more rights than a woman, they're already charging women who did nothing wrong.

And in this case, a woman who was willing to have a child with Downs, despite her doctors suggesting she abort. She's your poster-child. And now you want to send her to jail? For having the audacity to miscarry?

bowerbird · Jul 3, 2011

PeteEU said:
Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges | World news | The Guardian

Seriously what is wrong with parts of America these days? Throwing women in jail for live for having still births or premature births? Not even the freaking Taliban and Iranian mullahs do this!

There is little doubt in my mind that many "pro-lifers" are tottally ignorant or rampant misogynists or both

X Factor · Jul 3, 2011

Hummmmm, I'm surprised at some of the positions being taken here. I disagree with Mistress Nomad, but, at least, she's consistent. Even if the lady had done dangerous things that harmed her unborn child, what makes this child a baby worth legal "victim" status but not any of the other countless aborted babies? Can someone explain?

bowerbird · Jul 3, 2011

CaptainCourtesy said:
This is very tricky. If the baby is born live, but then dies, and the cause of death is directly related to the actions of the mother during pregnancy, I suppose some sort of charges would be appropriate. But this opens up a huge can of worms. Let's say they find a direct link between ADD and women who smoke cigarettes during pregnancy. Any child with ADD could now sue their parents for some sort of abuse/neglect/endangerment. Though I agree that in some cases, charging the women in these cases is appropriate, I don't like where this could head.

Why stop there Cap'n? Why not charge women eating at Mc Donalds with endangerment? How about women who are not following an ideal diet or exercise regime?

After all we know that lack of vitamin B causes neural tube deficits

GPS_Flex · Jul 3, 2011

MistressNomad said:
The slippery slope has already happened. There is no evidence one of the women did anything to endanger the fetus at all. She is being charged with it anyway out of the clear blue sky.

I don't find this complicated at all. A fetus does not have the same rights as a person. No logical argument supports that conclusion. But even if that weren't the case, even if you for some reason think a fetus has more rights than a woman, they're already charging women who did nothing wrong.

And in this case, a woman who was willing to have a child with Downs, despite her doctors suggesting she abort. She's your poster-child. And now you want to send her to jail? For having the audacity to miscarry?

Did we read the same article? The woman was a crack-head.

Prof. Peabody · Jul 3, 2011

PeteEU said:
Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges | World news | The Guardian

Seriously what is wrong with parts of America these days? Throwing women in jail for live for having still births or premature births? Not even the freaking Taliban and Iranian mullahs do this!

Pete....Dateline within the past 48 hours. Your story is from Friday 24 June 2011. That's a tad more than 48 hours.

PeteEU · Jul 3, 2011

GPS_Flex said:
I question the accuracy of your claim that Iran and/or the Taliban wouldn’t lock a woman up for this. Abortion is illegal in Iran, except when the mother’s life is in danger, and drug use is illegal too.

So you are saying that the Taliban (who barely can read and write... and the women certainly cant) and the Iranians actively go after mothers who naturally abort and throw them in jail or have them executed? Seriously? In the Taliban case, how would they know that the woman uses drugs since only the husband is allowed near her! In the Iranian case, again how would they know since it is only the husband and near family that are allowed to talk to her....

If nothing else, the drug use alone in Iran could get her anything from the death penalty to 70 lashes.

Shows how much you know... if a woman is sentenced to death it is by stoning, not lashes.

SmokeAndMirrors · Jul 3, 2011

GPS_Flex said:
Did we read the same article? The woman was a crack-head.

Apparently you didn't read it very thoroughly. It talked about several different cases. One where the woman used cocaine, one where she attempted suicide, and one where she didn't do anything harmful at all.

bowerbird · Jul 3, 2011

X Factor said:
Hummmmm, I'm surprised at some of the positions being taken here. I disagree with Mistress Nomad, but, at least, she's consistent. Even if the lady had done dangerous things that harmed her unborn child, what make this child a baby worth legal protection but not any of the other countless aborted babies?

Are you aware that the most prolific abortionist on the planet is Mother Nature? Between about 50-70% of conceptions do not implant or abort naturally in the first few days. Of those that survive 20% (approx) will abort naturally (abortion is the correct medical term for miscarriage. So what are you suggesting - that every woman who has a positive pregnancy test is charged with murder if she does not produce a healthy live infant in 9 months time?

PeteEU · Jul 3, 2011

bowerbird said:
Are you aware that the most prolific abortionist on the planet is Mother Nature? Between about 50-70% of conceptions do not implant or abort naturally in the first few days. Of those that survive 20% (approx) will abort naturally (abortion is the correct medical term for miscarriage. So what are you suggesting - that every woman who has a positive pregnancy test is charged with murder if she does not produce a healthy live infant in 12 months time?

"cough"... 9 months... "cough"

X Factor · Jul 3, 2011

bowerbird said:
Are you aware that the most prolific abortionist on the planet is Mother Nature? Between about 50-70% of conceptions do not implant or abort naturally in the first few days. Of those that survive 20% (approx) will abort naturally (abortion is the correct medical term for miscarriage. So what are you suggesting - that every woman who has a positive pregnancy test is charged with murder if she does not produce a healthy live infant in 12 months time?

That's right, and if she fails to hold the baby in for 12 months, she should be charged with abandonment. :roll:

Ask a stupid question...

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