We don't have a surplus of PhDs as a whole...just in certain subjects.
If you get a PhD in a social science or humanities subject, all you're qualified to do is teach that social science or humanities subjects.
PhDs/DBAs in accountancy are quite rare, relatively. The pay increase between someone with an MBA and a CPA, and someone with a PhD, is minimal at best - and I've seen reports that 9-month first-year PhDs teaching at the university level (not year-round) average around $140,000 a year. It goes up to around $175,000 for year-round people, or people who do for-profit, publishable research in the off-time.
I mean, what's a PhD in African Studies or Sociology going to do for you? Bragging rights about the prefix of your name?
It is definitely a problem that our economy is so focused on using people for repetitive, mindless work to feed a money making machine instead of fostering creative endeavor to improve our country. It's getting to the point where the population is simply too smart and too knowledgeable to allow oligarchical, profiteering capitalism much longer. If our economics can't keep up with our knowledge, it's the economics that need to change, not the knowledge.
Rainman05 said:A phd in a useless thing like liberal arts, bible studies, philosophy or interpretive music or whatever... is useless and has always been useless.
I'm curious to know what you mean by this. Do you believe we should not study humanities, the bible, or philosophy?
A phd in a useless thing like liberal arts, bible studies, philosophy or interpretive music or whatever... is useless and has always been useless.
nota bene said:I guess it depends on what is defined as "useless."
nota bene said:I'm guessing that "useless" means "not remunerative."
Clearly.
You're probably right, but I would take issue that any of the subjects that Rainman05 mentioned (except interpretive music--I'm not sure that's a real subject) in the bit I quoted are not in fact remunerative. Philosophy has made some critical and direct contributions to our economy. Nuclear power is as much a result of philosophy as physics; Einstein decided to take seriously ontological positivism (the precursor to logical positivism), which led to his breakthrough with special relativity. In general, the reasoning methods used (and misused, unfortunately) in the sciences were invented by philosophers.
Similarly, liberal arts produces all kinds of stuff that is of direct social value. Aside from the fact that people with liberal arts Ph.D's write books that can often sell well to the general public, the observations made by scholars in the liberal arts are sometimes of direct benefit in politics and business organization. Joseph Campbell's thesis in the "Masks of God" was put to some use by PR people in marketing campaigns, because clever marketing managers realized he was saying something correct about how human beings react to over-idealized objects. The notion of "brand recognition" didn't start there, but his work contributed (probably to his own chagrin) to the theory of how to establish it.
All that said, I would agree with your view: the questions addressed by Bible scholars, philosophers, people working in the humanities, etc. go to the very core of human concern. Without the possiblity of answers to those questions, life would be quite bleak. I would question whether people would continue to feel all that motivated if we were to suck all the philosophy, all the liberal arts, all the religion, etc. out of life.
I would argue the exact opposite. Albeit these subjects are generally taught in such a way to preclude real wisdom being transferred today, but traditionally liberal arts are some of the most important areas of knowledge -moral, cultural, and spiritual knowledge besides which the value of engineers is small indeed.
I'm curious to know what you mean by this. Do you believe we should not study humanities, the bible, or philosophy?
Rainman05 said:No. We should study them, but there is no point to have an academia dedicated towards this purpose in the way it is now.
I must disagree.
IMO...
1. Elementary-high school teachers should be paid at the same level as lawyers and doctors, because their jobs are equally important to the economic and social growth of this country.
2. The field should be highly competitive. Accordingly, there should be no such thing as tenure, and it should be easy to replace teachers who aren't performing well.
3. Kids should only go to college if the training is actually necessary for their profession/career. Training purely for the sake of intellectual development should be taken care of in high school.
4. Higher education costs should be linked to the program's success at producing employable graduates. Schools should be on the hook for their alumni debt if their graduates can't find work.
Well, your point of view is your point of view. I disagree with it strongly and state that an education, even to a high standard such as a phd, is worthwhile only in a few areas, such as engineering is.
A Ph.D. in engineering and other disciplines can actually cost you jobs in the private sector because you're "overqualified." But the point of an education, at least in my view, isn't all about job training/learning a trade. What I mean is that it's not limited to the utilitarian.
College should be where you go to get a job.
If you want to learn the guitar, play the guitar for 4 years - don't go get a degree in music.
I'll tell you all right now that I'd know a HELL of a lot more about accounting if I got an accounting job and read a few books in my spare time for 6 years instead of getting an MBA in it. You go to any employer these days and give them two candidates for a job: one who's worked in the field 4 years, but no education beyond high school, and the other with no field experience, but a 4 year degree in the field.
99 out of 100 employers will take the person with no education and the 4 years experience EVERY time out of the gate, ceteris paribus. There's a reason for that.
College should be where you go to get a job.
If you want to learn the guitar, play the guitar for 4 years - don't go get a degree in music...
I guess Julliard will be shutting its doors soon.
Meanwhile, care to back up your 99 out of 100 claim?
Juliard is Harvard for the performing arts - just a place where the kids of a bunch of rich pricks hang out for years and strut around to learn completely nothing as far as a marketable skill.
If someone wants to pay them a 6 figure salary for standing on their tippy-toes while wearing pink spandex and a lacy skirt, so be it.
I would think that any profession in which one can make a "6 figure salary" is a "marketable skill", regardless of work attire.
You might have heard of a few Juliard students, people like Val Kilmer, Christopher Reeve, Kevin Spacey, Robin Williams, Chick Corea, Eric Whitacre, Paul Waggoner, Charles Schlueter, have skills far more marketable than most MBA, law, or engineering students.
And global problems. We could export our surplus phds to the developing world to reverse/stem the brain drain - exile, useless ones!
They have to compete with others for academic or research positions here. They may not be suitable for other industries as people with a first degree can do equally well.
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