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OSHA to Investigate Act of God

No, they do not. Not when it concerns government. Government is suppose to represent all the people, not just a subset of union communists.

Civil servants don't represent you and I. They perform a function as directed by the executive branch.

I mean, did you think I was saying the president and congress should be unionized?
 
Civil servants don't represent you and I. They perform a function as directed by the executive branch.

I mean, did you think I was saying the president and congress should be unionized?
I'm not referring to the unionist communist scum, I'm referring to the politicians that were elected to represent their constituents. They were elected to represent their constituents, not just a subset of government union communists.

If the people elect a politician who promises to cut taxes, it would be a conflict of interest for unions to demand pay increases from that politician (particularly since they probably contributed to his campaign). It becomes a subversion of democracy, not to mention the crime of bribery, if that politician then submits to the demands of the unionist communist scum over their own constituents.
 
Have we grown so weak as a nation that we can't trust capitalism to put worker's safety at the forefront.
I think it did in this case. What the reports around this incident focus on is that 6 workers died. What they aren’t very forthright with is that 45 other workers survived. I suspect we’d be seeing very different numbers if those people had been driving around in a tornado instead of hunkering down at the warehouse.
 
You can't cut donations, that would violate the First Amendment.

It might, but less so than banning unions altogether. Unions are association, pure and simple.

I imagine if government defined a template for unions like (a) all unions must have annual elections for leadership, by anonymous ballot of members, (b) unions are not corporations and thus are immune from the Citizens United ruling, (c) all negotiations between unions and employers must be available to union members ... then SCOTUS would find it an acceptable carve-out to address your concerns.

Perhaps (d) Essential service unions do not have the right to strike. This would be severable though: the court might take the view that civil actions against those unions would be sufficient to deter strikes.

To put it more simply, unions are distinct from corporations, and should have different rules.

But we can abolish all public unions. Even FDR opposed public unions, with good reason.
{emphasis added}

Source:


I admit that unions are nothing more than communist trash and should all be abolished, but I recognize the right of private citizens to associate with whomever they please. Public employees don't have that right.

Public employees don't have the right to drink beer in whatever bar they like? Now you're sounding like a fascist. Public employees should not be bound by any rules that don't apply to private sector employees.

It's pretty clear now that you'd ban all unions if you could find a way to do it. :rolleyes:
 
I mean, did you think I was saying the president and congress should be unionized?
They are already! Their unions are called the Democratic Party and the Republican Party :LOL:
 
It might, but less so than banning unions altogether. Unions are association, pure and simple.
Not it might, it does. So sayeth the Supreme Court in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, 558 U.S. 310 (2010)

Public unions are an illegal association. Not unlike the Italian Mafia. We can't break up an illegal secret organization because we don't know enough about it, but we can certainly break up an illegal public union.

I imagine if government defined a template for unions like (a) all unions must have annual elections for leadership, by anonymous ballot of members, (b) unions are not corporations and thus are immune from the Citizens United ruling, (c) all negotiations between unions and employers must be available to union members ... then SCOTUS would find it an acceptable carve-out to address your concerns.

Perhaps (d) Essential service unions do not have the right to strike. This would be severable though: the court might take the view that civil actions against those unions would be sufficient to deter strikes.

To put it more simply, unions are distinct from corporations, and should have different rules.

Public employees don't have the right to drink beer in whatever bar they like? Now you're sounding like a fascist. Public employees should not be bound by any rules that don't apply to private sector employees.

It's pretty clear now that you'd ban all unions if you could find a way to do it. :rolleyes:
The chief problem remains. You cannot have collective bargaining with public unions. Government is not "management." Government represents the people, and in a democracy it is the people who are the management.
 
Not it might, it does. So sayeth the Supreme Court in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, 558 U.S. 310 (2010)

Public unions are an illegal association. Not unlike the Italian Mafia. We can't break up an illegal secret organization because we don't know enough about it, but we can certainly break up an illegal public union.

SCOTUS rulings are not the only determinant of what is constitutional. If a State or the Federal government were to pass a law specifically to address your concerns, SCOTUS might find it to be a "narrowly tailored" solution to the problem.

Note the other party to Citizens United. The FEC sought to apply government rules to a privately financed film, and they failed. That doesn't mean that a more narrowly tailored "carve out" for public or majority-public unions would not succeed. Particularly given the right wing lean of the court now, they would probably see this as progress towards prohibiting all unions from making political donations.

I think we both agree that banning all unions from making donations is unconstitutional. So there's some point of agreement. Where we differ is that you think banning unions outright according to who the employer is, IS constitutional. Oh man, it doesn't just violate the First, it violates the Fifth too!

And how would you do it? Fire them all and replace them with untrained or undertrained teachers, firefighters etc? Allow the previously unionized workers back in, only if they sign a contract with penalties for associating with any union outside school hours? Can't you see how that violates rights?

You could I suppose ban union organizing or meetings on public property or during work hours (let alone both). You won't beat the union that way. Just take the ban on unions donating to anyone but their members — and construct it as theft to spend money of the dissenting minority, according to political preferences of the majority! Easy.


The chief problem remains. You cannot have collective bargaining with public unions. Government is not "management." Government represents the people, and in a democracy it is the people who are the management.

If the people don't like the pay and conditions of teachers or emergency services, then they can elect representatives who feel the same. I think you'll find that besides teacher tenure, they're not particularly jealous of a teacher's pay packet.
 
I'm not referring to the unionist communist scum, I'm referring to the politicians that were elected to represent their constituents. They were elected to represent their constituents, not just a subset of government union communists.

If the people elect a politician who promises to cut taxes, it would be a conflict of interest for unions to demand pay increases from that politician (particularly since they probably contributed to his campaign). It becomes a subversion of democracy, not to mention the crime of bribery, if that politician then submits to the demands of the unionist communist scum over their own constituents.
ohhh, like the police union???

or is THAT different?:unsure:
 
OK

Has it been long enough?

Did GOD do it or not?
 
OK

Has it been long enough?

Did GOD do it or not?

Hurricanes are God vomiting. Tornadoes are more like God's diarrhoea.
 
No Newsmax isn't legitimate.

As mentioned before (by me?) Newsmax and some other hoax sites do occasionally run a story straight from the AP wire. It could be because they just can't be bothered fabricating conspiracy nonsense ("Jewish space lasers may be responsible for the tornados!") but I think it's so their readers can point at some stories which are true, to back that they're all true.

In this case the story might be 'straight' but why risk it? Newsmax has never broken a story that I know of, so why bother going there at all?
 
Paraphrasing:

"When the Air Norway terminal at Heathrow Airport blew up at 3:00 am on a slow Tuesday night the authorities, and the press, called it "an act of God". But Dirk Gently wondered "which God?". And what was he doing at Heathrow at 3:00 AM on a Tuesday?"

-------Douglas Adams.
 
SCOTUS rulings are not the only determinant of what is constitutional.
Actually, they are the "Supreme" authority on what is or isn't constitutional. That is both a good and a bad thing.

If a State or the Federal government were to pass a law specifically to address your concerns, SCOTUS might find it to be a "narrowly tailored" solution to the problem.
My only concern is that public unions exist. So if government were to abolish public unions then I would no longer have any concerns. There is no need for the Supreme Court to be involved at all.

Note the other party to Citizens United. The FEC sought to apply government rules to a privately financed film, and they failed. That doesn't mean that a more narrowly tailored "carve out" for public or majority-public unions would not succeed. Particularly given the right wing lean of the court now, they would probably see this as progress towards prohibiting all unions from making political donations.
Very true, but the end result was that the law enacted by Congress to prohibit donations was a violation of the First Amendment. Essentially the Supreme Court has equated private money as a form of "free speech" when it concerns political donations. Thus preventing State and federal governments from interfering.

I think we both agree that banning all unions from making donations is unconstitutional. So there's some point of agreement. Where we differ is that you think banning unions outright according to who the employer is, IS constitutional. Oh man, it doesn't just violate the First, it violates the Fifth too!

And how would you do it? Fire them all and replace them with untrained or undertrained teachers, firefighters etc? Allow the previously unionized workers back in, only if they sign a contract with penalties for associating with any union outside school hours? Can't you see how that violates rights?

You could I suppose ban union organizing or meetings on public property or during work hours (let alone both). You won't beat the union that way. Just take the ban on unions donating to anyone but their members — and construct it as theft to spend money of the dissenting minority, according to political preferences of the majority! Easy.
In a perfect world no unions would exist. However, like I said, the First Amendment also acknowledges the individual right to freely associate with whomever we please. That includes the right for private unions to exist, or any other private association, like the KKK or the neo-NAZIs.

There would be no need to fire anyone. Simply abolish the public unions. The teachers would still teach classes and be paid exactly the same. Police would still enforce the laws and be paid exactly the same. Firefighters would still put out fires and be paid exactly the same. More in fact, since they no longer would be paying union dues.

If the people don't like the pay and conditions of teachers or emergency services, then they can elect representatives who feel the same. I think you'll find that besides teacher tenure, they're not particularly jealous of a teacher's pay packet.
They do elect representative who feel the same. That's the problem, the representative then becomes the collective bargaining manager for the public union. If the representative does not cede to the public union's demands the union goes on strike and effectively shuts down government. The last time that happened was on August 5, 1981 when President Reagan fired 11,359 Air Traffic Controllers for illegally going on strike.
 
As mentioned before (by me?) Newsmax and some other hoax sites do occasionally run a story straight from the AP wire. It could be because they just can't be bothered fabricating conspiracy nonsense ("Jewish space lasers may be responsible for the tornados!") but I think it's so their readers can point at some stories which are true, to back that they're all true.

In this case the story might be 'straight' but why risk it? Newsmax has never broken a story that I know of, so why bother going there at all?
Agreed. But even in this case their spin on it isn't straight. OSHA is not investigating an act of God. What they are investigating is whether or not the building was up to code for acts of God, and whether or not the company had proper safety procedures in place for their employees in case of an act of God.

And those are completey legitimate areas of investigation, contrary to Newsmax's ridiculous spin.
 
Actually, they are the "Supreme" authority on what is or isn't constitutional. That is both a good and a bad thing.

You missed the point. Until injuncted in a lower court, government actions are constitutionally legal, in fact there's a doctrine called 'ripeness' stating that except in some irreversible cases like election law, the law HAS to have an affect on some government, company or individual before they can bring a case against it.

You see this happening with abortion law now. Most of the laws clearly violate RvW and/or Casey, however they're not futile. They're throwing a lot of mud at a wall in the expectation that with a right-leaning court, some of it will stick.

This is particularly relevant with gun law, which I assume you care about, as well as what we're talking about here. A right leaning court should welcome the opportunity to further restrict public sector unions. They always prefer to chip away at what they see as problems, rather than make sweeping rulings which it may be hard to stay consistent with in future.

My only concern is that public unions exist. So if government were to abolish public unions then I would no longer have any concerns. There is no need for the Supreme Court to be involved at all.

They absolutely would be involved. It's a constitutional matter just like any union-busting.

Very true, but the end result was that the law enacted by Congress to prohibit donations was a violation of the First Amendment. Essentially the Supreme Court has equated private money as a form of "free speech" when it concerns political donations. Thus preventing State and federal governments from interfering.

And a carve-out for unions using donations to affect their own employer? Why does that seem like a heavier lift to you, than BANNING A UNION?

In a perfect world no unions would exist. However, like I said, the First Amendment also acknowledges the individual right to freely associate with whomever we please. That includes the right for private unions to exist, or any other private association, like the KKK or the neo-NAZIs.

And public unions? Where is government granted the power to prevent unionism (in violation of First Am as you acknowledge) in their own employees?

In fact, put like that, isn't it a vast government over-reach which right-wingers usually oppose like the Devil?


There would be no need to fire anyone. Simply abolish the public unions. The teachers would still teach classes and be paid exactly the same. Police would still enforce the laws and be paid exactly the same. Firefighters would still put out fires and be paid exactly the same. More in fact, since they no longer would be paying union dues.

That's naive. What they will do when you "abolish" a teacher's union is they will go out on indefinite strike. You'll have to use police as child-minders until you import teachers from Fiji (or wherever). Bad plan, man.

They do elect representative who feel the same.

No, I mean the voters who have a problem with paying teachers etc so much, still have the option of electing someone who feels the same and will do something about it.

If it's even possible.

That's the problem,

You have no solution for it, and you won't settle for the minimalist restriction on donations because it does not slake your thirst for destruction of the unions themselves. Sucks to be you, I guess.
 
the representative then becomes the collective bargaining manager for the public union. If the representative does not cede to the public union's demands the union goes on strike and effectively shuts down government.

It's because their skills are hard to replace, that they have so much power of the strike that they generally don't even need to: a go-slow, particularly for emergency services, avoid public backlash on them. That you don't recognize the legitimacy of workers withdrawing their labor, while I'm sure you'd recognize the right of employers to lock them out, sums up that you think it's a law of nature that whoever has the money gets all the power too.

And you talk about public sector unions being "undemocratic". Nothing is more undemocratic than a private workplace with no unions.

The last time that happened was on August 5, 1981 when President Reagan fired 11,359 Air Traffic Controllers for illegally going on strike.

Yeah, but unlike what I just suggested, he also banned the controllers he had fired from every working in the industry again. Big mistake, for which Reagan suffered.

ATC are more like emergency services than teachers, and a no-strike clause in their contracts seems justifiable (to me). However they should never have been pushed to strike, as their concern was mostly working conditions. Hoiking their pay would not have addressed the risk posed to others, of ATC having to work crazy shifts or not being able to see clearly out of some towers.
 
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