Opposition to CRT explained

[j brown's body]

At this point in ti

At this point in time, parts of that cohort are already experiencing disparities due to the immutable characteristic of ethnicity.

If the system treated everybody equally, there would be no debate. It does not.

Personally, I have experienced white privilege as far as the police are concerned. Wild kid, lots of interactions with cops. Never feared for my life, though. But observations suggests that that is largely due to the fact that odds are higher I’m some rich guys kid rebelling. Odds are much less where folks are poor.

Indeed, I have earned much more wealth than my African-American counterpart simply because of the color of my skin and the impact it has on the value of my home.

 

[cpwill]

Do they use fact checkers?

For opinion pieces describing the intent of the Other? No idea.

However, that particular piece cited does precisely what I pointed to earlier - taking problems with applicability and attempting to derive from it deliberate design which is then used to attempt to lay out intent.

Tribalists, Conspiracy theorists, and other people who are engaging in graceless and lazy thinking do this a lot.

"Oh, sure, of course, they say that the Democrats thought passing a large stimulus and infrastructure spending bill was good politics and a way to achieve policy objectives.... but.... then we got inflation, so they must have wanted us to have inflation!!!!!!!!!!" (insert many more exclamation marks, perhaps make the preceding all caps, etc.)​

 

[jnug]

Uh-huh. So, you either don't know how to, or don't want to think through how things such as fundamental attribution error and in-group/out-group biases might be impacting your judgement, here. ?

I know a badly, unscrupulously written Bill when I see one. I choose to chalk it up to being ill intended given Desantis daily track record of bullshit. You can attribute it as you see fit. IMO, Florida and Texas should get themselves governors that are actually interested in being governors as opposed to governors only interested in using their states as personally hobby horses to their future political ambitions.

 

[Ren]

"We want a 'history' that makes us feel good. Look, we know it's largely or entirely bullshit, but we're planning on reifying it and anyone who has the temerity to challenge our saccharine view of this past had better be prepared to get attacked as an unpatriotic, radical socialist."

I want history as seen through the lens of objective analysis, not through the lens of diapered race hustlers.

 

[cpwill]

Indeed, I have earned much more wealth than my African-American counterpart simply because of the color of my skin and the impact it has on the value of my home.

Interesting. Of my 4 neighbors, 1 is a hispanic family, 1 is a black family, 1 is a black lady, and one is an elderly white couple. What's the premium on my house v the black v the hispanic family? Can I assume that my starting price as a white guy is Their-House-As-Comp-Plus-X%? What is the relative differential that I would gain v the hispanic family, v the differential between my house and the black family?

 

[cpwill]

I know a badly, unscrupulously written Bill when I see one. I choose to chalk it up to being ill intended given Desantis daily track record of bullshit. You can attribute it as you see fit. IMO, Florida and Texas should get themselves governors that are actually interested in being governors as opposed to governors only interested in using their states as personally hobby horses to their future political ambitions.

Sure. And Biden wanted us to have high inflation because he hates America that is clearly the most probable explanation. Everyone I Disagree With Is Evil.

 

[ataraxia]

You are not describing the central assertions of CRT.

This is what I see:

“One tenet of CRT is that racism and disparate racial outcomes are the result of complex, changing, and often subtle social and institutional dynamics, rather than explicit and intentional prejudices of individuals.[8][9][10] CRT scholars argue that the social and legal construction of race advances the interests of white people[7] at the expense of people of color,[11][12]and that the liberal notion of U.S. law as "neutral" plays a significant role in maintaining a racially unjust social order,[13] where formally color-blind laws continue to have racially discriminatory outcomes.”

Critical race theory - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

So remind me again why I should be outraged at this?

 

[jnug]

For opinion pieces describing the intent of the Other? No idea.

However, that particular piece cited does precisely what I pointed to earlier - taking problems with applicability and attempting to derive from it deliberate design which is then used to attempt to lay out intent.

Tribalists, Conspiracy theorists, and other people who are engaging in graceless and lazy thinking do this a lot.

"Oh, sure, of course, they say that the Democrats thought passing a large stimulus and infrastructure spending bill was good politics and a way to achieve policy objectives.... but.... then we got inflation, so they must have wanted us to have inflation!!!!!!!!!!" (insert many more exclamation marks, perhaps make the preceding all caps, etc.)​

The Florida Bill is sloppily written legislation or its unscrupulously written legislation. If you prefer sloppily written that is fine by me.You are welcome to your opinion. Both sloppy and unscrupulous reside at the same ends of the spectrum for me. They general produce similar results. In fact personally I think sloppy is even worse than unscrupulous. At least you have a shot at seeing what is coming at you with unscrupulous. No telling what sloppy might produce.

 

[ataraxia]

It is not. Critical race theory (CRT) is a body of legal scholarship and an academic movement of civil-rights scholars and activists in the United States that seeks to critically examine U.S. law as it intersects with issues of race in the U.S. and to challenge mainstream American liberal approaches to racial justice. CRT comes with a problematic epistemology (denying the ability to access common truth), a number of problematic assumptions (For example, the rejection of liberal individualism and the re-dividing of the world into cohorts defined by the immutable characteristic of ethnicity), and, unfortunately, a number of destructive proposed structures to build "solutions" from (often retributive in nature).

What is the link here?

 

[jnug]

It is not. Critical race theory (CRT) is a body of legal scholarship and an academic movement of civil-rights scholars and activists in the United States that seeks to critically examine U.S. law as it intersects with issues of race in the U.S. and to challenge mainstream American liberal approaches to racial justice. CRT comes with a problematic epistemology (denying the ability to access common truth), a number of problematic assumptions (For example, the rejection of liberal individualism and the re-dividing of the world into cohorts defined by the immutable characteristic of ethnicity), and, unfortunately, a number of destructive proposed structures to build "solutions" from (often retributive in nature).

Funny how most folks that are all for throw the term around ignore the most important word of a three. Its a THEORY. Its got high points and low points. Does not belong being taught K-12 and its not. Worthy of a spot in colleges and universities especially those offering a course of studies in Black History or Racial Justice. Even there it should be approached as a Theory to be examined because that is what you do with theories.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

"We want a 'history' that makes us feel good. Look, we know it's largely or entirely bullshit, but we're planning on reifying it and anyone who has the temerity to challenge our saccharine view of this past had better be prepared to get attacked as an unpatriotic, radical socialist."

Who is this quote attributed to?

 

[jnug]

Sure. And Biden wanted us to have high inflation because he hates America that is clearly the most probable explanation. Everyone I Disagree With Is Evil.

Irrelevant to the topic at hand....not even a nice try. If you can't THINK your way to the difference between Ron DeSantis and Joe Biden I will have a hard time discussing a topic with you. Neither is a perfect person...by a loooooong way. But they are not the same person. Not even close.

 

[Rickeroo]

Interesting. Of my 4 neighbors, 1 is a hispanic family, 1 is a black family, 1 is a black lady, and one is an elderly white couple. What's the premium on my house v the black v the hispanic family? Can I assume that my starting price as a white guy is Their-House-As-Comp-Plus-X%? What is the relative differential that I would gain v the hispanic family, v the differential between my house and the black family?

You bring up the logistical complexity of race-based redistributive justice (the goal of CRT). There are all kinds of computations involved - income, wealth, home value, job quality, getting pulled over by the police more or less often, the list is endless. Also for consideration would be how much white people owe to Blacks, Hispanics and Asians. Certainly Blacks deserve the most. Once that matrix of who owes what money to who is established, keep in mind that one can be of mixed race, which would further complicate the distributions. Then there is the issue of how exactly to determine race to make it legally binding.

A more practical way to solve the race issue under CRT would be to just go communist.

 

[cpwill]

Could you give a specific example, or are we left with cliches?

Certainly. For example, the classic liberal approach to building knowledge is to assume that it is commonly available via data-driven objective research in the model that CRT theorists disparage as a "particular Western and Male way of thinking". CRT peferences Narrative Truth that is not universally approachable, but is instead available at different levels only to members of particular groups with immutable ethnic characteristics.

 

[cpwill]

You bring up the logistical complexity of race-based redistributive justice (the goal of CRT). There are all kinds of computations involved - income, wealth, home value, job quality, getting pulled over by the police more or less often, the list is endless. Also for consideration would be how much white people owe to Blacks, Hispanics and Asians. Certainly Blacks deserve the most. Once that matrix of who owes what money to who is established, keep in mind that one can be of mixed race, which would further complicate the distributions. Then there is the issue of how exactly to determine race to make it legally binding.

A more practical way to solve the race issue under CRT would be to just go communist.

When Everyone Is Starving To Death, We Are Finally All Equal

 

[cpwill]

Irrelevant to the topic at hand....not even a nice try.

I agree it's not a nice way to think about others, but, it was indeed a sarcastic application of your own logic.

If you can't THINK your way to the difference between Ron DeSantis and Joe Biden I will have a hard time discussing a topic with you. Neither is a perfect person...by a loooooong way. But they are not the same person. Not even close.

"The Other Team Must Have Had Bad Intent, Because They Have Bad Intent, Which We Know Because They Are Members Of The Other Team".


Sure.

 

[What if...?]

For opinion pieces describing the intent of the Other? No idea.

However, that particular piece cited does precisely what I pointed to earlier - taking problems with applicability and attempting to derive from it deliberate design which is then used to attempt to lay out intent.

Tribalists, Conspiracy theorists, and other people who are engaging in graceless and lazy thinking do this a lot.

"Oh, sure, of course, they say that the Democrats thought passing a large stimulus and infrastructure spending bill was good politics and a way to achieve policy objectives.... but.... then we got inflation, so they must have wanted us to have inflation!!!!!!!!!!" (insert many more exclamation marks, perhaps make the preceding all caps, etc.)​

Yet there were a bunch of laws passed clearly intended to discriminate against black people. Plus all the ancillary regulations and references to those laws they were based on.

Some vestiges still exist.

At the end of the day, had the name not focus grouped as the rights narrative managers hoped, we wouldn’t be hearing it all day every day.

“It has “critical” and “race” right in the name! It’ll be easy to tell our target demo that that means critical of the white race! Easy money!”

 

[cpwill]

What is the link here?

There are several links, however, they generally run back to wikipedia articles, for easy reading and reference.

 

[jnug]

You bring up the logistical complexity of race-based redistributive justice (the goal of CRT). There are all kinds of computations involved - income, wealth, home value, job quality, getting pulled over by the police more or less often, the list is endless. Also for consideration would be how much white people owe to Blacks, Hispanics and Asians. Certainly Blacks deserve the most. Once that matrix of who owes what money to who is established, keep in mind that one can be of mixed race, which would further complicate the distributions. Then there is the issue of how exactly to determine race to make it legally binding.

A more practical way to solve the race issue under CRT would be to just go communist.

You will have to provide citations for that contention and they will have to be citations that specifically link CRT to race based redistributive justice. There are proponents of redistributive justice. Proponents of redistributive justice seek a positive solution to racial imbalance and racial injustice. They seek action. Not sure they can make much headway.

CRT as a theory if it seeks anything beyond the academic seeks to diminish the negative effects that racially biased people keen to protect their privileged status have in using institutions for that purpose. The negative impacts of Urban Renewal on Black Communities as it was implemented is a great mid to late 20th century example. Urban Renewal was used to line certain pockets, used to generate construction contracts and profits while destroying Black Communities. Urban Renewal was a well intentioned Federal Program abused by certain city planning boards and state planners....a classic example of what CRT tries to point out if there ever was one.

 

[Rickeroo]

You will have to provide citations for that contention and they will have to be citations that specifically link CRT to race based redistributive justice.

Whiteness As Property, Cheryl Harris 1993 Harris is described as a Critical Race Theorist in Wikipedia.

The South African conception of affirmative action expands the application of affirmative action to a much broader domain than has typically been envisioned in the United States. That is, South Africans consider affirmative action a strategic measure to address directly the distribution of property and power, with particular regard to the maldistribution of land and the need for housing. This policy has not yet been clearly defined, but what is implied by this conception
of affirmative action is that existing distributions of property will be modified by rectifying unjust loss and inequality. Property rights will then be respected, but they will not be absolute and will be considered against a societal requirement of affirmative action. In essence, this conception of affirmative action is moving toward the reallocation of power and the right to have a say. This conception is in fact consistent with the fundamental principle of affirmative action and effectively
removes the constraint imposed in the American model that strangulates affirmative action principles by protecting the property interest in whiteness.

Note the dig against property rights in general. She laments the weaker form of affirmative action in the American model. 30 years later, she's pretty much been proven correct, as there's been no progress whatsoever in reducing racial disparity. She continues with her own conclusion:

It is long past time to put the property interest in whiteness to rest. Affirmative action can assist in that task. Affirmative action, if properly conceived and implemented, is not only consistent with norms of equality, but is essential to shedding the legacy of oppression.

She infers that the properly conceived version of affirmative action is the South African model.

 

[NolanVoyd]

On your side perhaps.

The teachers that do this garbage should be fired; school boards coast-to-coast need to be replaced now to get us back to normalcy.

You got your panties all in a twist about something that is made up.

 

[Michael Cole]

I want history as seen through the lens of objective analysis, not through the lens of diapered race hustlers.

History doesn't care what you want, but it would like it in English, if possible.

 

[Ren]

History doesn't care what you want, but it would like it in English, if possible.

Diapered race hustlers and History fight each other at every turn. Science is completely foreign to your side.

Pronouns and excessive complaints are the very cornerstone of the left. Embrace that -- it's the only thing you've got.

 

[Michael Cole]

Diapered race hustlers and History fight each other at every turn. Science is completely foreign to your side.

Pronouns and excessive complaints are the very cornerstone of the left. Embrace that -- it's the only thing you've got.

That you think I'm the left, or have a side for that matter, doesn't speak well of your intuitiveness.

You make no sense. Have a good afternoon.

 

[ultmd]

Seen too many examples of it to believe you.

No you haven't. And we both know this. When challenged to actually present "many examples"...you have REPEATEDLY stumbled and bumbled....because we ALL know that there are ZERO examples of CRT actually being taught in K-12 public schools in this country.

How can people like you, who have no freaking idea what CRT is (and is NOT) even begin to understand what is, and is NOT, an "example of CRT"?

What you people call "CRT" is just a collection of white cultural grievances, resentments and fears that have (quite literally) NOTHING to do with the Critical Race LEGAL Theory. What you people hate is the truth about your own history.

"CRT" is just an easy, convenient, dumbed-down slogan for people like you to rally behind.

It's all really very "Beta" of you people, honestly.