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Openminded, looking for intelligent arguments.

The subject of this thread is "Openminded, looking for intelligent arguments", not emotional tirade.

Dragonfly said:
Look man, the relevant point here is this.

You believe whatever you want to believe. Live by it, but don't FORCE others to live by what you believe. Do you want Sharia Law here in the USofA? Somehow I highly doubt it.
Your beliefs on abortion are your "BELIEFS". They are not the same beliefs that many other people have.

Ergo, CHOICE allows you to live your life according to your beliefs. Don't have an abortion. Simple as that. You think it's wrong, so don't have one.
Support each and every aspect of sex-education in public schools, support affordable birth control for all, support advances in birth control and health care coverage for all aspects of birth control.

Look, many states have had capital punishment for certain crimes. It never stopped those crimes from happening. You won't ever stop abortions from happening.

If you want to cut back on the number of abortions there are plenty of tried and true ways to do that. I've suggested a few. They work.
Abortion rates have been dropping for decades. They'll continue to drop if we stop acting like idiots and battling over private beliefs and start looking at ways to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

You stop abortion by stopping unwanted pregnancy. Not by outlawing it.

Peace out.
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It's so simply phrased from your own beliefs, without taking into consideration the perspective of the opposition. That perspective is that the life inside the womb is of more import than a cluster of meaningless cells, that that life deserves to live. From that POV, it's not seen much different than being able to kill anyone walking around.

I do find it interesting that you brought up capital punishments for crimes and yet people still commit them. You compare that to abortion and that people will still get them. That line you wrote defeats your own argument, as what you're actually saying is you're advocating for those laws to be removed. So murder would no longer be murder and allowable by law.
 
trouble13 said:
Prolifers shouldnt try to limit abortions with laws they should instead focus on contraceptives.

Prochoices could focuse on those thinhs too plus other thinhs that would hreatly reduce the amount of abortions being sought after.

If women dont want to get pregnant thay should take greater steps to prevent it instead of dumping that burden on to prolifers

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Pro choice church's have joined forces and have been working together since the 1970s to help reduce the numbers of abortions , help with family planning adoptions services etc.

RCRC'srational, healing perspective looks beyond the bitter abortion debate to seek solutions to pressing problems through clergy and congregational support and faith-based messages. The Coalition focuses on unintended pregnancy, the spread of HIV/AIDS, inadequate health care and health insurance, and the severe reduction in reproductive health care services. The Coalition supports access to sex education, family planning and contraception, affordable child care and health care, and adoption services as well as safe, legal, abortion services, regardless of income. The Coalition's work centers on public policies that ensure the medical, economic, and educational resources necessary for healthy families and communities that are equipped to nurture children in peace and love.
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The Pro-Choice Public Education Project : Spirituality: A Tool to Achieve Reproductive Justice
 
Fishking said:
The subject of this thread is "Openminded, looking for intelligent arguments", not emotional tirade.



It's so simply phrased from your own beliefs, without taking into consideration the perspective of the opposition. That perspective is that the life inside the womb is of more import than a cluster of meaningless cells, that that life deserves to live. From that POV, it's not seen much different than being able to kill anyone walking around.

I do find it interesting that you brought up capital punishments for crimes and yet people still commit them. You compare that to abortion and that people will still get them. That line you wrote defeats your own argument, as what you're actually saying is you're advocating for those laws to be removed. So murder would no longer be murder and allowable by law.
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There is a significant difference between unjustly taking the lives of any born persons walking around and aborting an embryo or early stage fetus which isn't sentient, doesn't have the neural capacity to feel pain, doesn't know it exists, virtually no organ development. You do realize that this applies to the stages of development for over 90% of abortions? How is it possible for you to not know these things about abortion? Why are you conflating abortion with the taking of lives of born persons?

You are one of many pro-life who simply assign the value of an human embryo and early stage fetus to that of born persons. If that was literally the case, abortion would be considered murder by our legislative and judicial bodies. There are significant reasons that such beliefs even by those in legislations and judicial roles can't enforce their personal beliefs and translate them into law. IF WOULD DENY WOMEN due process under the law (which means the state's inability to deny LIFE, LIBERTY, and PROPERTY without due process of law (and this includes the right to privacy, which is inherent to our having LIBERTY) and equal protection under the law...<---and do I need to explain this?
 
Removable Mind said:
There is a significant difference between unjustly taking the lives of any born persons walking around and aborting an embryo or early stage fetus which isn't sentient, doesn't have the neural capacity to feel pain, doesn't know it exists, virtually no organ development. You do realize that this applies to the stages of development for over 90% of abortions? How is it possible for you to not know these things about abortion? Why are you conflating abortion with the taking of lives of born persons?

You are one of many pro-life who simply assign the value of an human embryo and early stage fetus to that of born persons. If that was literally the case, abortion would be considered murder by our legislative and judicial bodies. There are significant reasons that such beliefs even by those in legislations and judicial roles can't enforce their personal beliefs and translate them into law. IF WOULD DENY WOMEN due process under the law (which means the state's inability to deny LIFE, LIBERTY, and PROPERTY without due process of law (and this includes the right to privacy, which is inherent to our having LIBERTY) and equal protection under the law...<---and do I need to explain this?
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How is the woman be denied those things if she willing consented to have sex. The law does not require her to put out. She does that freely knowing the possible outcome of her choice which is exactly what you tell the fathers.

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trouble13 said:
If women only had vaginal sex.to procreate the abortion debate would be.almost nonexistent

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Why should women only have vaginal sex to procreate if *they* don't have a problem with aborting should they get knocked up?
 
trouble13 said:
How is the woman be denied those things if she willing consented to have sex. The law does not require her to put out. She does that freely knowing the possible outcome of her choice which is exactly what you tell the fathers.

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No one, not man nor woman should be denied their right to privacy regarding medical procedures.

Women should have a right to privacy regarding their medical procedures just as Men have a right to privacy regarding their medical procedures.
 
Removable Mind said:
There is a significant difference between unjustly taking the lives of any born persons walking around and aborting an embryo or early stage fetus which isn't sentient, doesn't have the neural capacity to feel pain, doesn't know it exists, virtually no organ development. You do realize that this applies to the stages of development for over 90% of abortions? How is it possible for you to not know these things about abortion? Why are you conflating abortion with the taking of lives of born persons?
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You assume I don't know these things? Interesting. Nothing you stated changes what I've said on numerous occasions. Your inability to understand the POV of the opposition is your problem to deal with, as it's been clearly laid out so I can only assume willful ignorance at this point. I understand some of the positions of pro-choice people and my position is not taken out of ignorance. However, there are still some pro-choice positions that don't pass any reasonableness tests, and it's those who support abortion being OK, for any reason, at any stage of pregnancy.

You are one of many pro-life who simply assign the value of an human embryo and early stage fetus to that of born persons. If that was literally the case, abortion would be considered murder by our legislative and judicial bodies. There are significant reasons that such beliefs even by those in legislations and judicial roles can't enforce their personal beliefs and translate them into law. IF WOULD DENY WOMEN due process under the law (which means the state's inability to deny LIFE, LIBERTY, and PROPERTY without due process of law (and this includes the right to privacy, which is inherent to our having LIBERTY) and equal protection under the law...<---and do I need to explain this?
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And you are one of many pro-choice who simply removes the value, or devalues, the human embryo.
 
Scrabaholic said:
Yes, they do. Which is why I am correcting you on your erroneous use of the word "infanticide".
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You take your definition from what makes you feel good I'm sure. I use definitions that make sense to me. I don't take my morality or the laws from whatever legal term is used or what a court might rule. So if you will not allow me to use a word as I see it fits, so be it. That's your prerogative.
 
Scrabaholic said:
Why should women only have vaginal sex to procreate if *they* don't have a problem with aborting should they get knocked up?
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No problem but don't whine when prolife people actively oppose you every step of the way

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minnie616 said:
No one, not man nor woman should be denied their right to privacy regarding medical procedures.

Women should have a right to privacy regarding their medical procedures just as Men have a right to privacy regarding their medical procedures.
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Men should have the right to freely decide if they want to be parents same as women

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trouble13 said:
How is the woman be denied those things if she willing consented to have sex. The law does not require her to put out. She does that freely knowing the possible outcome of her choice which is exactly what you tell the fathers.

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How does a man NOT KNOW the potential risks and consequences of ejaculating sperm into a vagina? Why even have sex without having that consideration, and incorporating that knowledge into his sexual conduct, which would include having conversations regarding such with the man's sex partner?
 
Fishking said:
You assume I don't know these things? Interesting. Nothing you stated changes what I've said on numerous occasions. Your inability to understand the POV of the opposition is your problem to deal with, as it's been clearly laid out so I can only assume willful ignorance at this point. I understand some of the positions of pro-choice people and my position is not taken out of ignorance. However, there are still some pro-choice positions that don't pass any reasonableness tests, and it's those who support abortion being OK, for any reason, at any stage of pregnancy.

And you are one of many pro-choice who simply removes the value, or devalues, the human embryo.
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I'm not assuming anything. You clearly made the comparison with born persons walking down the street as open game to kill, and unnecessarily, I might add.

Your "POV" is your opinion and your argument. You clearly know that disagree with your POV and your arguments regarding the value of the yet to be born vs the born and women's right to have an abortion.

I make no denial that I place a much higher value on childbearing age women than I do a human zygote, embryo, early stage fetus, or any stage fetus for that matter. YET, I have frequently stated that I don't object to the "Viability Clause in Roe v Wade and then the latter decision made in Planned Parenthood vs Casey 1992, which states that "IF" technology becomes available that allows earlier development stages of a fetus to survive outside the womb then the medical community will employ such technology.

If every woman on the planet declared that they would bear zero more children EVER, I would respect their decision. Women ARE NOT morally or lawfully obligated to proliferate the species. Men certainly aren't.
 
Removable Mind said:
How does a man NOT KNOW the potential risks and consequences of ejaculating sperm into a vagina? Why even have sex without having that consideration, and incorporating that knowledge into his sexual conduct, which would include having conversations regarding such with the man's sex partner?
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Are you suggesting men are smarter than women. Men unferstand how babies are made but women do not?

People who dont want babies should stick to anal sex. Thos eliminates the killing of unwanted children and spares the woman of a medical procedure that could prevent them from having children in the future.

Seems like a reasonable enough compromise

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trouble13 said:
Are you suggesting men are smarter than women. Men unferstand how babies are made but women do not?

People who dont want babies should stick to anal sex. Thos eliminates the killing of unwanted children and spares the woman of a medical procedure that could prevent them from having children in the future.

Seems like a reasonable enough compromise

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You gotta be kidding me. I'm not suggesting anything. I'm dead-dog clear. This is the best comeback that you have? DO SPERM PRODUCING BOYS OR MEN NOT KNOW what the risks and or consequences can be when they ejaculate sperm into a woman's vagina? This isn't a "men are smarter or women are smarter" question.

Question for you:

Do you ever engage in a little foreplay with your sex partner and let her perform a little strap-on action up your rectum? Or to see what you expect your sex partner will experience in order to keep you from having to pay child support for an unwanted kid?
 
Removable Mind said:
You gotta be kidding me. I'm not suggesting anything. I'm dead-dog clear. This is the best comeback that you have? DO SPERM PRODUCING BOYS OR MEN NOT KNOW what the risks and or consequences can be when they ejaculate sperm into a woman's vagina? This isn't a "men are smarter or women are smarter" question.

Question for you:

Do you ever engage in a little foreplay with your sex partner and let her perform a little strap-on action up your rectum? Or to see what you expect your sex partner will experience in order to keep you from having to pay child support for an unwanted kid?
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I habe never engaged in that activity but i hear that is where the male g-spot is located so i moght try it sometime if the mood ever strikes me.

As it stands now i only slepp with women who dont know who i am or whete i live so i can avoid being unfairly persecuted for getting laid.

I will keep you suggestion in mind for future adventures.

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trouble13 said:
I habe never engaged in that activity but i hear that is where the male g-spot is located so i moght try it sometime if the mood ever strikes me.

As it stands now i only slepp with women who dont know who i am or whete i live so i can avoid being unfairly persecuted for getting laid.

I will keep you suggestion in mind for future adventures.

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You only sleep with women who don't know where you live? So in essence you're saying that's how you protect yourself from being responsible for an unwanted pregnancy OR you potentially spreading an STD and can't be contacted to give you the news that you might want to seek medical attention and prevent spreading such to other.

Now if you want to qualify such women as women who work in the sex industry who, for pay, automatically accept any such incidents as unwanted pregnancies and/or STDs, then I wouldn't consider that as being such a #%##$#$# behavior on your part.

Oh, and don't tell me that you always use a condom with these women who don't know where you live. And Herpes...can be transmitted even with using a condom. Herpes can be transmitted by bodily contact from areas not located on a penis.

What a sweetheart you are, Trouble.
 
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