One in five Americans has no religion

RabidAlpaca · Dec 9, 2012

presluc said:
Check your responses to me pal, when did you see respectful, that went out the window on your first response.
Perhaps we look at respectful in different lights.
I am respectful of your non- belief while you call my belief ignorant?
You question my belief all is well, I question your belief suddenly I am ignorant why?
Are we not all individual, do we not have the right to believe or not?

Knowledge sir, is a journey at least to the logical mind, it is not a destination that when you know so much you start closing the doors of the mind and nothing else according to YOU is possible.
Perhaps in your search for knowledge you have simply stopped; not I that is not my belief ,nor my faith, nor my path.

As far as me learning something new I have read post from atheist but you mention the possibility of a higher power, intelligent design or supernatural to an atheist they become bobble heads going side to side no way , no how , impossible no proof they say

Yet they ask for somebody to believe without a doubt that there was an explosion called the Big Bang that happened trillions of years ago that not only created the universe but was the creation of living tissue that started evolution BASED ON NOT PROOF JUST EVIDENCE THAT MIGHT BE MAYBE CORRECT?

And we're supposed to believe that based on evidence, based on theories, based on what, speculation and evidence without proof?

I will continue to search for knowledge, for the truth, If I do not find it at least I have tried.
You can continue to live with your closed mind, in a tiny little world, based on the speculation of an accident in space.eaceeace

I didn't call you belief in god ignorant, I tried to correct your horrifically ignorant statement about evolution. You obviously didn't even read my post because you said it again. The big bang didn't create living tissue, that's literally the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

What I did say is that you should try to actually educate yourself on a topic before you refuse it. Evolution was not pulled out of somebody's ass. There is an unbelievable number of facts that prove that it occurs. As I stated though to another poster about you, you have no intention of informing yourself about evolution, so why the f*** do you try to debate it? I don't know anything about quilting, so I keep my mouth shut when people are talking about it.

presluc · Dec 9, 2012

Quag said:
No not new to this debate we have already gone back and forth, you keep going on and on about atheists yet I dont see anyoen else talkign about them but you, You seem to have a major hang up with them.
Perhaps I am reading too much into this, but I dont knwo why you keep talking about athiests when you really meant supporters of the big bang theory they are not interchangable.

Well, if you check the post, you will find that Organized religion is always on the defense giving the atheist a free ride because if you question organized religion their answers if true would be well embarrassing.
After all involved in politics , involved in peoples rights, power and money

However, I am a faith believer, not into Organized Religion it is my belief that God ain't into politics or power or money , and telling people what to do why if we have FREE WILL.

So when Atheist post to me I'm not on the defense got nothing to hide, so I'm on the offense.
Atheist write bad reviews about my faith, I can do the same.
Atheist question my belief, I can question theirs.

When you really meant supporters of the Big Bang "Theory", they are not interchangeable?
Putting words in my mouth there aren't ya?eace

presluc · Dec 9, 2012

RabidAlpaca said:
I didn't call you belief in god ignorant, I tried to correct your horrifically ignorant statement about evolution. You obviously didn't even read my post because you said it again. The big bang didn't create living tissue, that's literally the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

What I did say is that you should try to actually educate yourself on a topic before you refuse it. Evolution was not pulled out of somebody's ass. There is an unbelievable number of facts that prove that it occurs. As I stated though to another poster about you, you have no intention of informing yourself about evolution, so why the f*** do you try to debate it? I don't know anything about quilting, so I keep my mouth shut when people are talking about it.

Step off pal ,just one moment there.

If the big bang started evolution how?
If it didn't how did evolution start and how, where, and when?

I thought asking questions was educating ones self.

What you want ? you want to post me a list of questions to ask you so you can answer properly without calling name if you want the answers in advance sorry can't help you..

It is you who have questionable statements ,that are quick to slander a question but really really slow on the answer, sometimes not at all.eace

RabidAlpaca · Dec 9, 2012

presluc said:
Step off pal ,just one moment there.

If the big bang started evolution how?
If it didn't how did evolution start and how, where, and when?

I thought asking questions was educating ones self.

What you want ? you want to post me a list of questions to ask you so you can answer properly without calling names.

It is you who have questionable statements ,that are quick to slander a question but really really slow on the answer, sometimes not at all.eace

I actually answered these questions a few posts back where I spent 10 minutes writing a summary of all the steps that have occured between the big bang and evolution. I had written that because I thought you were actually interested in learning about it. You promptly ignored it and began insulting me.

presluc · Dec 9, 2012

zgoldsmith23 said:
Now you're changing parameters to fit your argument. You said Earth didn't have space travel - not manned, interplanetary travel.

Um ... what?

Yeah it was a pretty amazing achievement. It was a testimony to human intelligence, curiosity, and ingenuity.

If there is poor sentence structure then, yes. I do have trouble reading gibberish.

It's not getting old if it's applicable.

The rules of the forum? Nope. Your debate skills and ignorance of science are showing, however.

Your incomprehension of the BBT is not evidence that it didn't occur. No theory in science is ever "proven" because - you guessed it - science doesn't deal with "proofs;" it deals with evidence. Evidence = / = proof.

BBT eventually led to cellular formation which led to tissue formation.

Of what?

No. The BBT is the theory of how the universe originated.

Perhaps mathematically and logically, but not scientifically. Again, science doesn't "prove" things - it has evidence.

Not all the time - just in some occurrences. Tell me, do you know how dangerous it is to send a person in to space? I mean really.

No I don't trust you. You say you have "proof" how creation started and since life originating is a biological and chemical matter and those are scientific, you don't have "proof" you have evidence.[/QUOTE

Ah , Hell another long winded post, what you a secretary in your spare time?

Sorry but if one has space travel one would think interplanetary travel, what's next go back to the days of sputnik and calling that space travel??????

Have a tough time reading that did ya , maybe it's time ya got bi focals.

Christ, the wheel was a great achievement a tribute to man's intelligence but since then man has moved on past just a round object

I'd say old very very old but some people , they can not change they fear change.

If I was being judged for my intelligence by an intelligent person I might take offense but some smuck who makes long winded post and uses the same word NAY DON'T THINK THAT BOTHERS ME.

One might question your debate skills as well or do you just post long post and hope the other debater will get bored and move on?

I got that the first time Science = evidence =proof BUT NO PROOF that's not what the question is.
If Atheist say that Science can say we have evidence we have no proof which I respect by the way as long as my belief is respected.
Which is GOD =FAITH=PROOF, BUT NO PROOF

Of course you have proof that an explosion can cause living tissue generation, and if it can could it not be regenerated?

That the Big Bang theory is FACT.

KEYWORD HERE,"THEORY."

These are faith believers we don't have proof we have faith

About as dangerous it was for the first man that attempted flying or a combat soldier fighting in a war , look once you're dead , you're dead down here or in space the risk takers know the risk that's why they take it, the rest look for the cheapest way for them to take the risk.

Never said I had proof on how creation started said I had faith big difference, between faith and proof just like evidence and proof.
The difference I'm still searching on how and why while you, and some others hang to one theory with science as a crutch.

In my opinion science as nothing to do atheism, it is indeed the other way round for scientist can talk for hours about nothing but science. Yet Atheist within 3 post they bring in science into their non beliefseace

zgoldsmith23 · Dec 9, 2012

RabidAlpaca said:
Yeah, I pop in from time to time. I'm done with presluc. I tried to respectfully explain something to him and he threw a hissy fit and freaked out on me. You can't teach someone something who refuses to educate himself on the topic. I find most people who don't believe in evolution have absolutely zero idea what it's actually about. These are the people who say things like: "If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys? Why don't the monkeys in the zoo become human?" or "Why hasn't science created evolution in the lab?"

If they're not willing to take 5 minutes out of their time to even read the wikipedia on evolution before making a decision, then there's nothing we can do.

You don't "believe" in evolution. Evolution has evidence.

zgoldsmith23 · Dec 9, 2012

presluc said:
Ah , Hell another long winded post, what you a secretary in your spare time?

Nope. I do, however, enjoy attempting to educate the scientifically illiterate and ignorant in my spare time.

Sorry but if one has space travel one would think interplanetary travel, what's next go back to the days of sputnik and calling that space travel??????

Yes, that was travel. Look up the definition of "travel." Space travel isn't the equivalent of interplanetary, interstellar, or intergalactic travel.

Have a tough time reading that did ya , maybe it's time ya got bi focals.

I'm not fluent in gibberish.

Christ, the wheel was a great achievement a tribute to man's intelligence but since then man has moved on past just a round object

Yes and they're both significant technological achievements.

I'd say old very very old but some people , they can not change they fear change.

Luckily I don't mind it.

If I was being judged for my intelligence by an intelligent person I might take offense but some smuck who makes long winded post and uses the same word NAY DON'T THINK THAT BOTHERS ME.

To be judged on your intelligence, you'd have to maintain a semblance of intelligence, which is not the case. I use the same words because those are the words that are applicable.

One might question your debate skills as well or do you just post long post and hope the other debater will get bored and move on?

If they do not reply then they are not interested in the spirit of debate.

I got that the first time Science = evidence =proof BUT NO PROOF that's not what the question is.

No, science = evidence = / = proof.

If Atheist say that Science can say we have evidence we have no proof which I respect by the way as long as my belief is respected.

Your beliefs (which lack both scientific evidence and logic and mathematical proof) are not the same as science which only deals in evidence and, for its best theories, has mounds of evidence.

Which is GOD =FAITH=PROOF, BUT NO PROOF

"God" could have scientific evidence, but there is none. "God" could have logic (or mathematical proof), but there haven't been any.

Of course you have proof that an explosion can cause living tissue generation, and if it can could it not be regenerated?

You skipped about 10 billion (10,000,000,000) years.

That the Big Bang theory is FACT.

It's a theory.

KEYWORD HERE,"THEORY."

Gravity is a "theory." Wanna test it? Go jump out of a building and do both myself and the human species a favor.

These are faith believers we don't have proof we have nothing

Meaning hasn't changed.

About as dangerous it was for the first man that attempted flying or a combat soldier fighting in a war , look once you're dead , you're dead down here or in space the risk takers know the risk that's why they take it, the rest look for the cheapest way for them to take the risk.

Unnecessary risks need not be taken. In space, many more minute things can negatively occur and you'd be SOL.

Never said I had proof on how creation started said I had faith big difference, between faith and proof just like evidence and proof.

Well if you're going to dwell in the realm of reality, that is science. So where is your evidence? Or is this going to amount to "well I have faith and that's enough for me!!"

The difference I'm still searching on how and why while you, and some others hang to one theory with science as a crutch.

Not a crutch. If the BBT went away tomorrow, I'd be the exact same. You aren't searching. Every answer is "god" and that's the end of the story. You say I use the BBT as a crutch, what'd happen if your faith disappeared tomorrow?

In my opinion

Oh boy this will be great. /sarcasm

science as nothing to do atheism,

This is true.

it is indeed the other way round for scientist can talk for hours about nothing but science. Yet Atheist within 3 post they bring in science into their non beliefseace

Atheists have the scientific method, usually, as a standard. The same standard which has given us antimicrobials, the computer, space travel (despite your ignorance), cell phones, cars, and the list goes on. Atheists also typically bring science in to the conversation because theists, and less often, deists, make claims about reality. Science deals with reality. If you are going to make claims about reality, then you make scientific claims. Your hypotheses have no evidence? They are rejected and must be re-evaluated - as we've seen lately. Ever notice how, the further science goes, the more complex and abstract "god" becomes? You don't find that coincidental?

Dezaad · Dec 9, 2012

zgoldsmith23 said:
You don't "believe" in evolution. Evolution has evidence.

Absolutely agreed. One "accepts" things when the evidence becomes sufficient that not to do so is an affront to the intellect. One doesn't 'choose' to believe.

I also try to be very careful with my language in debates on this, because they'll latch on to a semantic error and the whole point will be lost 'fighting' that out.

RabidAlpaca · Dec 9, 2012

zgoldsmith23 said:
You don't "believe" in evolution. Evolution has evidence.

You'd think that, but they still find a way to not believe in it.

FluffyNinja · Dec 9, 2012

zgoldsmith23 said:
You don't "believe" in evolution. Evolution has evidence.

Lots of things have evidence......evidence does not always equal universal truth, however.

There is something to be said for how evidence may be interpreted........or misinterpreted.

zgoldsmith23 · Dec 9, 2012

Dezaad said:
Absolutely agreed. One "accepts" things when the evidence becomes sufficient that not to do so is an affront to the intellect. One doesn't 'choose' to believe.

I also try to be very careful with my language in debates on this, because they'll latch on to a semantic error and the whole point will be lost 'fighting' that out.

They'll try to equivocate their superstitious belief with it if you use the wrong terminology. Occasionally, they'll try it on the offensive. It's the last ditch effort.

RabidAlpaca said:
You'd think that, but they still find a way to not believe in it.

There are really three ways to deal with Evolutionary Theory.

1) You accept it based on its enormous amount of evidence and predictions along with it, that have evidence, as well.
2) You dispute it, substitute a hypothesis that also carries merit and has evidence against the Theory of Evolution
3) You dispute based on superstitious belief and plug your ears pretending it doesn't happen. Then you take antivirals, antibacterials, and other drugs which have been created because we developed the Theory of Evolution and are hypocritical of yourself.

If someone disputes Evolution based on superstitious belief, don't give them medicines. Let them "pray" it away.

zgoldsmith23 · Dec 9, 2012

FluffyNinja said:
Lots of things have evidence......evidence does not always equal universal truth, however.

There is something to be said for how evidence may be interpreted........or misinterpreted.

Such as?

Dezaad · Dec 9, 2012

RabidAlpaca said:
You'd think that, but they still find a way to not believe in it.

Withholding acceptance of notions which have enough evidence to warrant acceptance is related to and is similar to faith. But it is worse. It begins a habit of thought which is detrimental to making good decisions, or causes an individual to compartmentalize their thought processes even further. In a way, it does violence to their own intellect.

Dezaad · Dec 9, 2012

FluffyNinja said:
Lots of things have evidence......evidence does not always equal universal truth, however.

There is something to be said for how evidence may be interpreted........or misinterpreted.

Sometimes (as in possibly all the time so far), we don't get to have 'universal truth'. It's not like anyone said "Universal truth is available to you. Now, go figure out what it is", or guaranteed it to us in any other way. The rational thing to do is to accept that we don't have universal truth and may not ever have it.

Interpretation of evidence can be tested. It is the theist who doesn't want this to be so. It is the theist who said "The sun rises each day because the sun is a god". It is the scientist who said, and provided evidence, that the sun only appears to rise each day, and is an inanimate dumb ball o' fire. The theist misinterpreted the evidence, and short circuited the discovery of reality by uttering one of the many variants of 'goddidit'. It is the scientist who calls bull**** and says let's wait for the evidence to reveal what the sun actually is.

It is the theist who goes from "The sun is a god and rises each day" to some supposed universal truth which may or may not logically follow. The atheist says, "well, there is no real evidence that the sun is a god, so I logically withhold my belief that it is. In addition, we must just accept that there may not be any universal truths, and if there is, we certainly cannot know them at this time".

presluc · Dec 10, 2012

RabidAlpaca said:
I actually answered these questions a few posts back where I spent 10 minutes writing a summary of all the steps that have occured between the big bang and evolution. I had written that because I thought you were actually interested in learning about it. You promptly ignored it and began insulting me.

I'm sorry but I must have missed that cause, I saw no answer, no proof only words.eace

presluc · Dec 10, 2012

zgoldsmith23 said:
You don't "believe" in evolution. Evolution has evidence.

Evolution came from living tissue shouldn't have to say more.

I do believe in evolution where it came from , that's where my faith in God comes in.eace

Ikari · Dec 10, 2012

zgoldsmith23 said:
You don't "believe" in evolution. Evolution has evidence.

There are some people who can't or don't want to understand science. That's all there is to it. Their preacher tells them something and they run off with it, never really doing any research of their own or trying to understand the theories and dynamics at stake. Que sera sera on some level, but also try not to waste your time too much. You cannot save folk from willful ignorance.

presluc · Dec 10, 2012

zgoldsmith23 said:
Nope. I do, however, enjoy attempting to educate the scientifically illiterate and ignorant in my spare time.

Yes, that was travel. Look up the definition of "travel." Space travel isn't the equivalent of interplanetary, interstellar, or intergalactic travel.

I'm not fluent in gibberish.

Yes and they're both significant technological achievements.

Luckily I don't mind it.

To be judged on your intelligence, you'd have to maintain a semblance of intelligence, which is not the case. I use the same words because those are the words that are applicable.

If they do not reply then they are not interested in the spirit of debate.

No, science = evidence = / = proof.

Your beliefs (which lack both scientific evidence and logic and mathematical proof) are not the same as science which only deals in evidence and, for its best theories, has mounds of evidence.

"God" could have scientific evidence, but there is none. "God" could have logic (or mathematical proof), but there haven't been any.

You skipped about 10 billion (10,000,000,000) years.

It's a theory.

Gravity is a "theory." Wanna test it? Go jump out of a building and do both myself and the human species a favor.

Meaning hasn't changed.

Unnecessary risks need not be taken. In space, many more minute things can negatively occur and you'd be SOL.

Well if you're going to dwell in the realm of reality, that is science. So where is your evidence? Or is this going to amount to "well I have faith and that's enough for me!!"

Not a crutch. If the BBT went away tomorrow, I'd be the exact same. You aren't searching. Every answer is "god" and that's the end of the story. You say I use the BBT as a crutch, what'd happen if your faith disappeared tomorrow?

Oh boy this will be great. /sarcasm

This is true.

Atheists have the scientific method, usually, as a standard. The same standard which has given us antimicrobials, the computer, space travel (despite your ignorance), cell phones, cars, and the list goes on. Atheists also typically bring science in to the conversation because theists, and less often, deists, make claims about reality. Science deals with reality. If you are going to make claims about reality, then you make scientific claims. Your hypotheses have no evidence? They are rejected and must be re-evaluated - as we've seen lately. Ever notice how, the further science goes, the more complex and abstract "god" becomes? You don't find that coincidental?

So let me get this straight if you have faith in God you become automatically scientific illiterate and ignorant?
So you are claiming that all scientist are atheist, mighty big claim.

So if I travel from a space in the kitchen to a space in the dining room is that space travel too?

I'm not fluent in hot air either but with some concentration I can get by reading your post

Except with the wheel man moved forward since 2000 WELL?

Yes you do for if anybody questions you you become offensive calling names and slander, especially if they don't ask you to prove your answers.

To judge someone on their intelligence you must be intelligent to be intelligent you must have proof or is that to be accepted on circumstancial evidence as well?

That's quite an easy way to win a debate, not my style though but you , WELL?

Too many accidental coincedenses that's 1 piece of evidence

On who's time standard?

Theory is not fact anything not fact can be questioned wether it is or not the truth.

Gravity may be called a theory but it is fact what goes up must come down as long as you are in a gravitational pull of a planet.

Changing my words without my permission is a violation of debate forum rules, it's also a cheap trick played by desperate posters. I would not waste my time responding to such underhanded trash

So now you are going to tell me about space travel, you been there I take it ,or do you just have evidence of that too.

You have evidence that can't be proven , I have faith that can't be proven.
I do not question atheist unproven evidence as long as they don't question my unproven faith.
So reality may not be faith in your eyes , but how can reality be a theory , speculation in my eyes
You're saying "I have unproven, unconfirmed evidence , that's enough for me"

Didn't say you used BBT as a crutch said you use science as a crutch and you do.
My faith led me to change my belief in the bible, my faith led me to believe in evolution while at one time I didn't.
Where as you Big Bang theory led you, more evidence NO PROOF, to say maybe the Big Bang really did happen , MAYBE???

You are debating the question of faith in God and Atheism, what has science to do with wether you believe in God or not?

People that have faith in God also deals in science you know, oh it's true we don't use science as a crutch to prove are belief is real but I'm sure there might be a few scientific projects without atheist beliefs, maybe one or two .lol,lol

So bottom line science don't need atheist. neither do they need faith believers.

However without the word science being used in a debate an atheist would have nothing to say.

Ergo atheist use science as a crutch, meanwhile true scientist could care less one way or the other what one believes or does not believe, they are too busy working on scientific problems that can be proven and one day will

Atheist or nonbelievers came out sometime ago in history of this planet and said God would be obsolete, the Romans said a passing fad, some even went as far as saying "GOD IS DEAD?
However they were proven wrong today the faith believers are still here as for anyone trying to remove us , in the words of an old movie " DO YA FEEL LUCKY PUNK":

Oh and FYI, that's quite a little sewing circle ya got there and ... ah gossip is such an ugly word but what can ya say???

"YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION EVOLUTION HAS EVIDENCE"
Seems like you sent everybody that but the me of course my response would not be so gentle poor zgoldismithy23 peace

presluc · Dec 10, 2012

FluffyNinja said:
Lots of things have evidence......evidence does not always equal universal truth, however.

There is something to be said for how evidence may be interpreted........or misinterpreted.

That's my point sir, thank you.eace

presluc · Dec 10, 2012

Ikari said:
There are some people who can't or don't want to understand science. That's all there is to it. Their preacher tells them something and they run off with it, never really doing any research of their own or trying to understand the theories and dynamics at stake. Que sera sera on some level, but also try not to waste your time too much. You cannot save folk from willful ignorance.

Some people can't have a one on one debate they need help Que sera sera . one should have a place to put one's foot just in case they are losing or as you say, call them ignorant, tell them it's a waste of time talking to them, a good strategy for never losing a debate, but not my styleeace

Ikari · Dec 10, 2012

presluc said:
Some people can't have a one on one debate they need help Que sera sera . one should have a place to put one's foot just in case they are losing or as you say, call them ignorant, tell them it's a waste of time talking to them, a good strategy for never losing a debate, but not my styleeace

Yeah, your style is willful ignorance and misrepresentation of science.

RabidAlpaca · Dec 10, 2012

presluc said:
I'm sorry but I must have missed that cause, I saw no answer, no proof only words.eace

Yep, nothing can breach willful ignorance. You've built a wall of ignorance, and you refuse to let anything, even facts, change your mind. The mind of a scientist can change to support the facts at hand, we don't marry any ideas.

presluc · Dec 10, 2012

Ikari said:
Yeah, your style is willful ignorance and misrepresentation of science.

Tsk tsk, such remarks you wound me sir.LOL

Is that the best ya got ,you and zgold better have another huddle, you can do better Ikari I know.

So you joined the sewing circle of name calling huh, never thought you'd sink that low, too bad too bad:

Ikari · Dec 10, 2012

presluc said:
Tsk tsk, such remarks you wound me sir.LOL

Is that the best ya got ,you and zgold better have another huddle, you can do better Ikari I know.

So you joined the sewing circle of name calling huh, never thought you'd sink that low, too bad too bad:

No, these things are merely statements of fact. Once someone decides to engage so dishonestly in debate, there is relatively nothing the other side can do. Sorry you don't like it; but you're not honest in your arguments on this subject and seem very stubborn in any amount of correction. As such, it's que sera sera. I can't help you if you choose not to be helped.

It is what it is. I'll continue to have healthy and productive argument/debate with theists who choose to engage on an honest level; there's much room for expression. But for those closed off, well there ain't nothing that can be done so there ain't no point in fretting over it.

presluc · Dec 10, 2012

RabidAlpaca said:
Yep, nothing can breach willful ignorance. You've built a wall of ignorance, and you refuse to let anything, even facts, change your mind. The mind of a scientist can change to support the facts at hand, we don't marry any ideas.

I need no wall for your post , you have presented no facts.
Mind of a scientist , how would you know?
Ikari knows but you don't think so?eace

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