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On the subject of traditional marriage [W:674,W:717]

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Silverwolf

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You know what argument I don’t get that I hear from the side of people that are against same sex marriage is? That its tradition for marriage to be between one man and one woman. They sometimes go on to point out various historical accounts illustrating how that was so. Well, I’m not a huge historian on the past of relationships or marriage, so I don’t know if in every culture in the history of the world they only celebrated unions between opposite sex partners or not, but the big idea that comes to my mind is: whether it was tradition or not, it’s irrelevant to the topic today.

Cultures revolutionize with every passing generation. New ideas and changes are presented all the time. If you ask me, I think things like outlawing slavery, letting women be able to hold professional careers, and the inventions of things like cars, airplanes and the internet served as bigger shocks to our culture and way of life than letting two people of the same sex sign a document that legally binds them together ever will.
 
Maybe, but it's always important to consider that many of the historical changes in America have been like a pendulum slowly swinging from one side to the other. Right now, we would be led to believe that we are in a pop culture nirvana of porn, sex, drugs and immorality without obligation or penalty. A virtual paradise for irresponsible, spiteful little children focused on narcissism.

Looking around though, it's not working out very well, schools and children are not doing well and there are an enormous number of isolated, lonely, unhappy people, particularly women in their late thirties and beyond who wish they could have gotten married and desperately long for a husband and children at home. Many men are exactly the same. As this gets worse, the pendulum will begin to reverse back to the other side of values, traditionalism, and concern for the lives of children, the elderly and families, essentially a unified culture with values that benefit that culture.
 
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It's traditional marriage for our nation, not over the thousands of years people have been getting married.

In many parts of the world it is tradition for young girls to marry, in other places it is tradition for a man to have multiple wives. In America our tradition has been that one man and one woman are the only ones qualifying what it means to be married. And it's perfectly fine for states to stick to that definition and for other states to change it.
 
Maybe, but it's always important to consider that many of the historical changes in America have been like a pendulum slowly swinging from one side to the other. Right now, we would be led to believe that we are in a pop culture nirvana of porn, sex, drugs and immorality without obligation or penalty. A virtual paradise for irresponsible, spiteful little children focused on narcissism.

Looking around though, it's not working out very well, schools and children are not doing well and there are an enormous number of isolated, lonely, unhappy people, particularly women in their late thirties and beyond who wish they could have gotten married and desperately long for a husband and children at home. Many men are exactly the same. As this gets worse, the pendulum will begin to reverse back to the other side of values, traditionalism, and concern for the lives of children, the elderly and families, essentially a unified culture with values that benefit that culture.

People not marrying is more about their own issues/struggles/choices than societal problems. We each are responsible for our own choices. None of this has anything to do with SSM

I do think, though, that one change that has hurt society is the less reliance on extended family. There is some anthropological research that shows that people/societies where extended families are more interactive tend to do better. Don't remember where I saw this, but it seems to make sense.
 
People not marrying is more about their own issues/struggles/choices than societal problems. We each are responsible for our own choices. None of this has anything to do with SSM

I do think, though, that one change that has hurt society is the less reliance on extended family. There is some anthropological research that shows that people/societies where extended families are more interactive tend to do better. Don't remember where I saw this, but it seems to make sense.

Or even close family for that matter...
 
Or even close family for that matter...

Yup. Mostly because technology has cut the distance between us, we have become a more isolated society. People don't just "visit" anymore. The actual connections between people, especially members of a family have waned significantly. IMO, this has been a negative for society; less support, more isolation.
 
It's traditional marriage for our nation, not over the thousands of years people have been getting married.

In many parts of the world it is tradition for young girls to marry, in other places it is tradition for a man to have multiple wives. In America our tradition has been that one man and one woman are the only ones qualifying what it means to be married. And it's perfectly fine for states to stick to that definition and for other states to change it.

No it really isn't.
 
People are seldom able to distinguish between what is moral and what is simply a social more. Traditions that aretruly moral are worth conserving. Those that are simple social mores are not, especially in those instances where they prevent social justice.

The arbitrary taboos against homosexuality fall within the latter. THey are merely superstitious beliefs held by people incapable of reason, but so conformist by nature that they adopt prejudicial attitudes for no other reason than they were taught such.
 
No it really isn't.

Yes, it is. People have the freedom to vote and there is nothing wrong with upholding the default tradition that we have been governed by since marriage was created in America :shrug:
 
Yes, it is. People have the freedom to vote and there is nothing wrong with upholding the default tradition that we have been governed by since marriage was created in America :shrug:

There is nothing wrong with denying rights to homosexuals? :roll:

Appeal to tradition is a logical fallacy
 
You know what argument I don’t get that I hear from the side of people that are against same sex marriage is? That its tradition for marriage to be between one man and one woman. They sometimes go on to point out various historical accounts illustrating how that was so. Well, I’m not a huge historian on the past of relationships or marriage, so I don’t know if in every culture in the history of the world they only celebrated unions between opposite sex partners or not, but the big idea that comes to my mind is: whether it was tradition or not, it’s irrelevant to the topic today.

Cultures revolutionize with every passing generation. New ideas and changes are presented all the time. If you ask me, I think things like outlawing slavery, letting women be able to hold professional careers, and the inventions of things like cars, airplanes and the internet served as bigger shocks to our culture and way of life than letting two people of the same sex sign a document that legally binds them together ever will.

Bingo.

But even with all that said, they're still historically wrong. That's not terribly important, but it certainly is hilarious.

Plenty of cultures have never minded gay unions (whatever they called it). Check out the Maoris in NZ (which recently legalized gay marriage) for one example.

Also, historical, traditional Abrahamic religious marriage (and let's be honest, that's what they're talking about: Abrahamic religious tradition) was not always one man, one woman. Sometimes, it still isn't.

For quite a long time, it was one man and however many women he liked. Maybe he had some wives, some concubines, and then some slaves he just liked to screw. But there was no pressure for men to be monogamous. Only women.

In fact, women weren't really considered part of the marital unit at all. There was no "unit." There was only the man. Women were property, often traded for things like cattle, or simply money. Women were a tool, used as a means to an end; usually to produce heirs, or to increase social standing. The women themselves were not partners in their household. They were property. Slaves, basically.

In medieval times, it was usually one man, one woman, sort of. But not really.

Married men often had mistresses. And in some European cultures, high status married women had courtiers. They weren't officially married to these "pieces on the side," but they were accepted as part of the marital unit.

And then of course there's the Mormons. A lot of Christians like to disown them as "not Christian," but really, they're just crying "no true Scotsman." Polygamous Christian marriage is still practiced, in the shadows, to this day.

And of course the same thing occurs in Islam. Also one of the Abrahamic off-shoots, though again, Christians don't like to talk about that.

In truth, Abrahamic monogamous opposite sex marriage where women are commonly and truly part of the unit is a very recent invention. It's really only been a reality in practice for the last 50-100 years, if that. And many places in the world still practice the old "traditions."

The ignorance of history has no bearing on the fact that it is wrong to discriminate against same sex couples, of course, but I always find it kind of hilarious when people sputter out their revisionist accounts of history.

I can see why they do it though. Who would want to associate themselves with real "traditional marriage," which was not only non-monogamous, but basically just a gendered version of slavery? The only way they can claim "tradition" is to re-write what the tradition actually was.
 
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There is nothing wrong with denying rights to homosexuals? :roll:

Appeal to tradition is a logical fallacy

What right is being denied? It's not denying rights to not extend a marriage definition in accordance with what they want in as much as it is denying rights to the guy who wants polygamy because it's part of his religion and home culture. The right to marry exists within what constitutes a marriage. I don't think they have a right to force a policy change because that definition doesn't meet what they want inasmuch as any other group has a right to do so.
 
People not marrying is more about their own issues/struggles/choices than societal problems. We each are responsible for our own choices. None of this has anything to do with SSM

I do think, though, that one change that has hurt society is the less reliance on extended family. There is some anthropological research that shows that people/societies where extended families are more interactive tend to do better. Don't remember where I saw this, but it seems to make sense.

It depends on what measure. I think the greatest boom in the USA history came in times when extended families were less connected and even fully left behind... the great immigrations, the spreading across the country in which "going West" was to leave all behind, people relocating for better jobs or to escape generational ghettos etc.

In my opinion, "family" can be one of the very best or very worst aspects of a person's life. It depends on the quality of the family itself.
 
What right is being denied? It's not denying rights to not extend a marriage definition in accordance with what they want in as much as it is denying rights to the guy who wants polygamy because it's part of his religion and home culture. The right to marry exists within what constitutes a marriage. I don't think they have a right to force a policy change because that definition doesn't meet what they want inasmuch as any other group has a right to do so.

Have you never heard of the equal protection clause?!? :roll:

Nevermind, I understand the type of "person" (dinosaur) I'm talking to. Just know that your side has lost on this issue and history will not be kind to your lot. Same goes with drugs.
 
Have you never heard of the equal protection clause?!? :roll:

Nevermind, I understand the type of "person" (dinosaur) I'm talking to. Just know that your side has lost on this issue and history will not be kind to your lot. Same goes with drugs.

As a man does it violate the ECP for me to have to sign up for Selective Service while women don't? The Equal Rights Amendment, which would have pretty much ended all discrimination based on gender, failed to ratify with that being on of the concerns.

My side is that SSM should be legalized in all states, but it's up to the people of that state to do so. I don't support getting fed involved or destroying the rights of voters who oppose SSM. You can hate their opinion and disagree with them, but don't deny them equal rights or their right to vote in a lawful upholding of policy. I don't think SSM should be shoved down people's throats or that the pro-side has the right to force their morality upon everyone just as the pro-traditional side can't do so either. DOMA should be ruled unconstitutional because it essentially does that to states that have legalized SSM.
 
What right is being denied? It's not denying rights to not extend a marriage definition in accordance with what they want in as much as it is denying rights to the guy who wants polygamy because it's part of his religion and home culture. The right to marry exists within what constitutes a marriage. I don't think they have a right to force a policy change because that definition doesn't meet what they want inasmuch as any other group has a right to do so.

You have to pick one side or the other of this...

Gays can point to numerous, tangible and harmful/disciminatory pratices on many real levels.

If you respond you favor legal rights equality, but they just can't have the word "marriage," then it becomes a fashion of bizarre word-control and clearly contrary to "free speech."

A word means what its usage means. "Gay" NEVER meant homosexuality, it is slang. Yet MOST (not all) anti-gay rights people use the word "gay" - while at the same time the government should be legally restricting word usage of "marriage?"

What do you NOT want homosexual couples to have? Hetero tax breaks? Hetero insurance policy lower rates? Hetero legal privilege (not testify against each other? Hetero rights in regards to children? Adoptions? Community property?

Please be specific.

I think increasingly people think government should just get out of the marriage business entirely and then, at a governmental level, it is a dead issue either way.
 
Yes, it is. People have the freedom to vote and there is nothing wrong with upholding the default tradition that we have been governed by since marriage was created in America :shrug:

Like that good, old tradition of whites not marrying blacks.

Heck, since you suppor the t tyranny of the majority like you do, why not just go back to the tradition of slavery?
 
You know what argument I don’t get that I hear from the side of people that are against same sex marriage is? That its tradition for marriage to be between one man and one woman. They sometimes go on to point out various historical accounts illustrating how that was so. Well, I’m not a huge historian on the past of relationships or marriage, so I don’t know if in every culture in the history of the world they only celebrated unions between opposite sex partners or not, but the big idea that comes to my mind is: whether it was tradition or not, it’s irrelevant to the topic today.

Cultures revolutionize with every passing generation. New ideas and changes are presented all the time. If you ask me, I think things like outlawing slavery, letting women be able to hold professional careers, and the inventions of things like cars, airplanes and the internet served as bigger shocks to our culture and way of life than letting two people of the same sex sign a document that legally binds them together ever will.
The purpose of legal recognition of marriage is to grant incentives to couples to reproduce, and to assist them in some way in the provision of their offspring.
My view is that the state should stop recognizing marriage in the religious sense. Instead, the state should grant these incentives to people who have children, not before.
The question I am interested in finding the answer to is, "Should homosexuals be permitted to raise children?"
1. If the child is more likely to become homosexual if raised by homosexuals - no.
2. If the child is more likely to be abnormal in some negative way (i.e. mental illness, social ineptitude, effeminacy in males...) - no.
3. If there is some greater chance that harm will come to the child because his caretakers are homosexual - no.
I am already leaning on 'no', because of my preference for a homogenous and united society for which the presence of homosexuals may cause disharmony.
 
You have to pick one side or the other of this...

Gays can point to numerous, tangible and harmful/disciminatory pratices on many real levels.

If you respond you favor legal rights equality, but they just can't have the word "marriage," then it becomes a fashion of bizarre word-control and clearly contrary to "free speech."

A word means what its usage means. "Gay" NEVER meant homosexuality, it is slang. Yet MOST (not all) anti-gay rights people use the word "gay" - while at the same time the government should be legally restricting word usage of "marriage?"

What do you NOT want homosexual couples to have? Hetero tax breaks? Hetero insurance policy lower rates? Hetero legal privilege (not testify against each other? Hetero rights in regards to children? Adoptions? Community property?

Please be specific.

I think increasingly people think government should just get out of the marriage business entirely and then, at a governmental level, it is a dead issue either way.

I have picked a side. I support SSM, but I recognize that it's a state issue and my vote is equal to the vote that opposes mine. Someone who disagrees with me can vote and have their opinion upheld in law as well. I don't think it's illegal to uphold the definition of traditional marriage. It may make some groups unhappy, but any policy will.

I want homosexuals couples to be allowed to marry and have an identical union to straight marriages. However, I don't think that they are entitled to forcing the definition of marriage in their favor or that those who disagree with them cannot legally do so and vote on the issue.

Like that good, old tradition of whites not marrying blacks.

Heck, since you suppor the t tyranny of the majority like you do, why not just go back to the tradition of slavery?

:roll: Yeah, because every straight person should own a gay slave. Interracial marriage =/= SSM. It's tyranny to remove a society's right to vote on a lawful issue because some people don't like it. We can also toss around tyranny as a term. Why tyrannize the rich with a higher progressive tax bracket? Why let middle class and poor people have a voice on tax policies that will not affect them? Why allow such "tyranny" by the majority?
 
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You know what argument I don’t get that I hear from the side of people that are against same sex marriage is? That its tradition for marriage to be between one man and one woman. They sometimes go on to point out various historical accounts illustrating how that was so. Well, I’m not a huge historian on the past of relationships or marriage, so I don’t know if in every culture in the history of the world they only celebrated unions between opposite sex partners or not, but the big idea that comes to my mind is: whether it was tradition or not, it’s irrelevant to the topic today.

Cultures revolutionize with every passing generation. New ideas and changes are presented all the time. If you ask me, I think things like outlawing slavery, letting women be able to hold professional careers, and the inventions of things like cars, airplanes and the internet served as bigger shocks to our culture and way of life than letting two people of the same sex sign a document that legally binds them together ever will.
If history and custom are irrelevant, then why not other conventions, like the idea that the weak should not be forced to submit to the strong?

If history and custom are irrelevant, then why have languages, institution, rules of behavior?

And the word "marriage", is defined as existing between the two genders. "Traditional marriage" is a redundant term. You're advocating a new definition, and may I say, thank you I will, a perverted one.
 
If history and custom are irrelevant, then why not other conventions, like the idea that the weak should not be forced to submit to the strong?

If history and custom are irrelevant, then why have languages, institution, rules of behavior?

And the word "marriage", is defined as existing between the two genders. "Traditional marriage" is a redundant term. You're advocating a new definition, and may I say, thank you I will, a perverted one.

Saying that tradition is irrelevant doesn't automatically mean we should do the opposite of whatever the tradition is.

It means we should assess whether the tradition stands up to ethical scrutiny. If it does, then we can leave it. If it does not, then we should replace it with something better.

And see my earlier post for an explanation of how hilariously historically wrong the idea of calling marriage "traditional" really is.
 
Saying that tradition is irrelevant doesn't automatically mean we should do the opposite of whatever the tradition is.

It means we should assess whether the tradition stands up to ethical scrutiny. If it does, then we can leave it. If it does not, then we should replace it with something better.

And see my earlier post for an explanation of how hilariously historically wrong the idea of calling marriage "traditional" really is.

I should think that several thousand years of proper marriage and the erasure of cultures that were particularly tolerant of sexual deviation should provide instruction.
 
I have picked a side. I support SSM, but I recognize that it's a state issue and my vote is equal to the vote that opposes mine. Someone who disagrees with me can vote and have their opinion upheld in law as well. I don't think it's illegal to uphold the definition of traditional marriage. It may make some groups unhappy, but any policy will.

I want homosexuals couples to be allowed to marry and have an identical union to straight marriages. However, I don't think that they are entitled to forcing the definition of marriage in their favor or that those who disagree with them cannot legally do so and vote on the issue.



:roll: Yeah, because every straight person should own a gay slave. Interracial marriage =/= SSM. It's tyranny to remove a society's right to vote on a lawful issue because some people don't like it. We can also toss around tyranny as a term. Why tyrannize the rich with a higher progressive tax bracket? Why let middle class and poor people have a voice on tax policies that will not affect them? Why allow such "tyranny" by the majority?

I can respect that.
 
You know what argument I don’t get that I hear from the side of people that are against same sex marriage is? That its tradition for marriage to be between one man and one woman. They sometimes go on to point out various historical accounts illustrating how that was so. Well, I’m not a huge historian on the past of relationships or marriage, so I don’t know if in every culture in the history of the world they only celebrated unions between opposite sex partners or not, but the big idea that comes to my mind is: whether it was tradition or not, it’s irrelevant to the topic today.

Cultures revolutionize with every passing generation. New ideas and changes are presented all the time. If you ask me, I think things like outlawing slavery, letting women be able to hold professional careers, and the inventions of things like cars, airplanes and the internet served as bigger shocks to our culture and way of life than letting two people of the same sex sign a document that legally binds them together ever will.
What are we supposed to be debating here?
 
I should think that several thousand years of proper marriage and the erasure of cultures that were particularly tolerant of sexual deviation should provide instruction.

:lol:

Again, see my previous post. Our "tradition" of marriage is nothing even close to "several thousand years old." It's not even 100 years old.

Also, cultures that accept gays have not been erased. They are alive and well, and their numbers are growing every day as the religiously stunted West slowly recovers. We just happen to be dragging our knuckles.

And again, I fail to see what difference it makes, even if that actually was the "tradition." Slavery was a tradition too, and it was far older than marriage.
 
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