On being a gun nut-Peter Hitchens

[Wessexman]

On being a gun nut - Mail Online - Peter Hitchens blog

All I desire is my lawful freedom, as guaranteed by the 1689 Bill of Rights and lawlessly whittled away by the civil service and dim politicians, to own a gun if I choose to do so. I suppose it's possible that, as our anarchy deepens, I might reluctantly want to take advantage of this. But that's the point. The choice should be mine, not that of some boot-faced politically-correct police officer anxious to maintain his monopoly of force - and anxious to ensure that his idea of the law should be the only one available.

Excellent article on our gun rights and how they have been taken away. Sometimes I envy Americans.

Long live the Bill of right!

he also comments on some facts, like our gun violence going up after more restrictions were introduced, here.

Guns, nuts, suicides, censorship and drugs - Mail Online - Peter Hitchens blog

 

[Ambracia]

Excellent article on our gun rights and how they have been taken away. Sometimes I envy Americans.

Yeah we are pretty awesome .... But on a serious note I hope you guys get your gun rights back someday. Is it true their trying to take knives away now too ?

 

[Wessexman]

Yeah we are pretty awesome .... But on a serious note I hope you guys get your gun rights back someday. Is it true their trying to take knives away now too ?

I believe they've already got plenty of restrictions.

The thing about Britain, and Australia, is there is far less stomach for preserving our gun rights. In fact those who want any sort of civilian gun rights, beyond going to shooting ranges perhaps, are quite small. The rest of the population simply accepts the propaganda and looks askance at anyone who doesn't, and I fully expect to get a barrage of British posters attacking guns, with rather silly objections, in this thread.

It is completely different to the US seemingly where even the relatively liberal seem to support at least most gun rights, if not assault guns and such.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- and I fully expect to get a barrage of British posters attacking guns, with rather silly objections, in this thread --

That just shows how little you have read of other the British posters views on this forum.

 

[kaya'08]

Our own police officers cannot hold a gun, let alone us civilians, for some PC BS reason. Some politicians cannot distinguish between gun control and complete embargo on guns. They also dont realize its possible to control and encourage responsible gun use as part of our rights without completely banning them. So if we cannot protect ourselves, and our own police officers are completely useless when the criminal is armed, then you have a great explanation as to why there is so many civilian murders in London when faced by a criminal with a weapon.

 

[Wessexman]

That just shows how little you have read of other the British posters views on this forum.

Actually it is more a general thing among Brits and Aussies. But yes I do mean here as well, are you saying off the top of your head that Laila, Garza and Gunner are those you'd expect to support gun rights? And no doubt PeteEU will be happy to stick his nose in.

You I was unsure about and Kaya.

 

[Wessexman]

Our own police officers cannot hold a gun, let alone us civilians, for some PC BS reason. Some politicians cannot distinguish between gun control and complete embargo on guns. They also dont realize its possible to control and encourage responsible gun use as part of our rights without completely banning them. So if we cannot protect ourselves, and our own police officers are completely useless when the criminal is armed, then you have a great explanation as to why there is so many civilian murders in London when faced by a criminal with a weapon.

Yes it is a shame in Britain that there is so little support for almost any gun rights beyond heavily restricted shotguns and rifles.

Now I'd allow assault weapons and concealed handguns, after all resistance to tyranny is a basic point to gun rights and the real reason for the clause in the Bill of rights, but I'd settle for a lot less but there is little stomach for it in Britain unfortunately. Mainly due to the media and various bits of propaganda presumably.

 

[Arcana XV]

You all should move to Switzerland. We have guns. :2wave: And very little crime too. Go figure.

 

[Ambracia]

You all should move to Switzerland. We have guns. :2wave: And very little crime too. Go figure.

I actually use switzerland as an argument whenever I talk about guns. You guys should be proud maintaining gun rights when all around you have cracked down.

 

[kaya'08]

I actually use switzerland as an argument whenever I talk about guns. You guys should be proud maintaining gun rights when all around you have cracked down.

I use Switzerland as an example of the cleverist state in Europe. Not in the EU, but reaps all the benefits, if any, that it does offer, while maintaining full independance.

 

[Laila]

But yes I do mean here as well, are you saying off the top of your head that Laila, Garza and Gunner are those you'd expect to support gun rights?

I'm not sure where i stand on gun rights anymore.
I used to be strongly against it but observing a few gun debates on the forum has swung me to the centre.

 

[kaya'08]

I'm not sure where i stand on gun rights anymore.
I used to be strongly against it but observing a few gun debates on the forum has swung me to the centre.

People argue there is too many weapons on the streets these days...which is partially true. If you read the newspaper frequently it becomes more and more obvious that this is the case in British cities like Liverpool, London, Birmingham etc. Many people die due to knife related injuries, not so much guns though. So that sort of makes me uncomfortable talking about legalizing guns, but thats the thing. Everyone has access to knives. Hell, i could go into my kitchen right now, and pick up the axe my nan uses to butcher the chicken we buy from Tesco's, and go pay my polish next door neighbour a visit who insists on smoking weed and getting everybody in the apartment block stoned by the morning because he likes to hot box the smoke in.
Thats where we need to pay more attention. To knives. There everywhere, easily attainble by everybody, paticularly our youth. Thats where we need to be considering placing massive restrictions. Gun laws need to be relaxed and ensured, through correct policy, unlike knives, that they fall into the hands of those who are over aged and responsible, so we can start protecting our selves when our unarmed bloody metropolitian police force stand there and watch. You may critisize such moves as unrealistic, unrational, that they will only serve to further harm our already violent city streets, but look at America. They did it successfully. How comes an island with far less people also cannot achieve the same thing?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Yes it is a shame in Britain that there is so little support for almost any gun rights beyond heavily restricted shotguns and rifles.

That I can agree.

-- after all resistance to tyranny is a basic point to gun rights and the real reason for the clause in the Bill of rights--

I'd rather we had guns in the Swiss tradition i.e. mandatory training and maintenance for the purpose of a notional army to repel hostile invaders (to the home or the country) than the US notion of protecting yourself from the Govt. That part of the US constitution will forever be rooted to the century it was written in - it has no place in the modern world and will not be adopted by any other country for the foreseeable future.

Oh the Americans believe in their right to bear arms and that I agree with - I just don't think being armed against a modern army is relevant or practicable anymore - outside the US. even then, I simply say that as a sop to the US forum members. I think the real reason many US citizens defend the whole part of that amendment / article (where-ever it is written in their constitution) is that if you erode that part then the other parts may systematically follow and all gun ownership end up like we have here.

 

[Wessexman]

That I can agree.

People go on about our constitutional failings but don't show any stomach to support such a key part of the Bill of rights.

I'd rather we had guns in the Swiss tradition i.e. mandatory training and maintenance for the purpose of a notional army to repel hostile invaders (to the home or the country) than the US notion of protecting yourself from the Govt. That part of the US constitution will forever be rooted to the century it was written in - it has no place in the modern world and will not be adopted by any other country for the foreseeable future.

The Bill of rights was if anything even more rooted in the protection against gov't mentality. I disagree with you about defending oneself against the gov't. It may be much harder but I don't think it is impossible with mass civilian support and dissension in the military. It is a very hard decision to wade through the blood of your own civilians even in the 21st century.

But even if it is hopeless there is that old saying of Patrick Henry's; Give me liberty or give me death. Some of us at least would rather at least give it a go and die than live under tyranny.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- Some of us at least would rather at least give it a go and die than live under tyranny.

Lovely speech, let me know when you decide to storm parliament buildings from Australia, I'll be there with my video camera to record it for posterity. :lol:

How far do you reckon you can make it? Dover? The M25? London Bridge?

 

[Ambracia]

Oh the Americans believe in their right to bear arms and that I agree with - I just don't think being armed against a modern army is relevant or practicable anymore - outside the US. even then, I simply say that as a sop to the US forum members.

I don't know man theres ALOT of woods and undeveloped land in the U.S and add to that the fact that if I do enough paperwork I can get myself a Automatic M4 and a M203 grenade launcher and that info from U.S army manuals are readily available online .... I think we could do it if it had enough support (Foreign invasion, Dictator, etc)

 

[Wessexman]

Lovely speech, let me know when you decide to storm parliament buildings from Australia, I'll be there with my video camera to record it for posterity. :lol:

How far do you reckon you can make it? Dover? The M25? London Bridge?

:yawn: Yes because of course I'd be alone in such a situation. If the need ever arose, and things are bad but a very long way off, I'd imagine it would only take place as part of massive social unrest and revolution. We cannot rule out such an eventuality and the need for firearms for that reason is there.

And I'm hardly in Australia through choice, I was 15 when I came here and when I can support myself I will be going back.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

:yawn: --

So basically this -

http://www.debatepolitics.com/1058009241-post14.html

was just hot air and posturing... unless you'd care to elaborate on just how "tyrannical" the situation has to be to get "wessexman" over from Australia to come and rescue us?

 

[Wessexman]

So basically this -

http://www.debatepolitics.com/1058009241-post14.html

was just hot air and posturing... unless you'd care to elaborate on just how "tyrannical" the situation has to be to get "wessexman" over from Australia to come and rescue us?

What are you talking about?

Why are insuating, again, that I'm not a proper Englishmen or Wessexman because I temporarily reside in Australia. I came because my choices were to or to live on the streets, I want to go back as soon as I can reasonably support myself.

As for when armed resistence is going to be the right course, I'd say it would be when the gov't was getting very oppressive or when a coup is haooening such as with Franco and it would depend on circumstances such as whether guns were available, how many were resisting, the leve of non-armed resistence and support to armed resistence and such.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

What are you talking about?

I quoted the post I was talking about

Why are insuating, again, that I'm not a proper Englishmen or Wessexman because I temporarily reside in Australia. I came because my choices were to or to live on the streets, I want to go back as soon as I can reasonably support myself.

No, you misread that originally, I was curious why or how somone out in Australia whose father is on an Australian passport had such strong views on life in the UK.
I was oftnn curious too about how you tried to label me initially as a "child of the empire" (a label I've read on the more polite fascist websites) then not British, not English and even because of my mixed English / Scottish heritage as something else entirely.. when you hadn't explained / stated the heritage that gave you the right to label others as not British / English etc

As for when armed resistence is going to be the right course, I'd say it would be when the gov't was getting very oppressive or when a coup is haooening such as with Franco and it would depend on circumstances such as whether guns were available, how many were resisting, the leve of non-armed resistence and support to armed resistence and such.

And in this regard, I stated that the current weapon of choice is the vote and peaceful pacifist protest. If the signs are that such rights are taken away then of course the populace will revolt - but that's a given. I simply disagree the American version that we should be prepared now for such events. They are far off in this country.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

I'm not sure where i stand on gun rights anymore.
I used to be strongly against it but observing a few gun debates on the forum has swung me to the centre.

much respect.



:cheers::cheers::bravo::gunsmilie:respekt:

 

[kaya'08]

What are you talking about?

Why are insuating, again, that I'm not a proper Englishmen or Wessexman because I temporarily reside in Australia. I came because my choices were to or to live on the streets, I want to go back as soon as I can reasonably support myself.

Whoever insuates such a thing is a fool (i dont think IC was insuating this, however). If your born in England and have a love for the country, regardless of your race, then you are British and have every right to be involved in its political affairs. This is how i see it. Otherwise i wouldnt give a **** about the UK and be on my way to Turkey (i too have a love for that country, but im a British national so "no can do" as far as involving myself in there politics).

Yes because of course I'd be alone in such a situation. If the need ever arose, and things are bad but a very long way off, I'd imagine it would only take place as part of massive social unrest and revolution. We cannot rule out such an eventuality and the need for firearms for that reason is there.

The British people have never lived under a Tyranny (a monarchy sure, but not a Tyranny. Not in a very long time at least). If it where to ever happen, imagine how the British would react? Brits arent people to be pushed about by a Tyranny. We love our democracy and freedom and its been with us for such a long time, we dont think twice about how lucky we are to have so many rights, its part of our lives and has been for many years. If we have access to guns or not, you can be damn sure id be, we'd all be by your side revolting too. So i dont think there's a need to legalize guns for that reason alone . Reason being is, well, its our right.

 

[Laila]

People argue there is too many weapons on the streets these days...which is partially true. If you read the newspaper frequently it becomes more and more obvious that this is the case in British cities like Liverpool, London, Birmingham etc. Many people die due to knife related injuries, not so much guns though. So that sort of makes me uncomfortable talking about legalizing guns, but thats the thing. Everyone has access to knives. Hell, i could go into my kitchen right now, and pick up the axe my nan uses to butcher the chicken we buy from Tesco's, and go pay my polish next door neighbour a visit who insists on smoking weed and getting everybody in the apartment block stoned by the morning because he likes to hot box the smoke in.
Thats where we need to pay more attention. To knives. There everywhere, easily attainble by everybody, paticularly our youth. Thats where we need to be considering placing massive restrictions. Gun laws need to be relaxed and ensured, through correct policy, unlike knives, that they fall into the hands of those who are over aged and responsible, so we can start protecting our selves when our unarmed bloody metropolitian police force stand there and watch. You may critisize such moves as unrealistic, unrational, that they will only serve to further harm our already violent city streets, but look at America. They did it successfully. How comes an island with far less people also cannot achieve the same thing?

I agree with what you say ... shockingly enough
I do find it unnerving that the weapons are in the hands of criminals and not the law abiding citizens

My personal observation of London is with that with the increase of youth stabbing one another; the main reason it is such a big 'scare' factor for adults is because they feel helpless against the teenagers to protect themselves.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

I agree with what you say ... shockingly enough
I do find it unnerving that the weapons are in the hands of criminals and not the law abiding citizens

My personal observation of London is with that with the increase of youth stabbing one another; the main reason it is such a big 'scare' factor for adults is because they feel helpless against the teenagers to protect themselves.

your next step is if you can, get to a range and do a day of shooting.....

 

[Laila]

your next step is if you can, get to a range and do a day of shooting.....

LOL
I'm not quite at that stage yet.
Do you know how many 'health and safety' forms you have to sign to go within a mile of a shooting range? They are so rare as well. In Scotland tho, you can go hunting

I'd much rather just take a summer holiday in the US :2wave: