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Oldest Christian inscription naming JESUS as GOD

I don't feel the doctrine of the TRINITY is that complex; however, it is a mystery that GOD reveals and as such Christians strive to understand it more fully. JESUS says HE has seen the FATHER.

Jesus said to him, John 14:9 “Have I been among you all this time and you do not know me, Philip? The one who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
 
No, I do not realize the view held by the Witnesses, And why would the Witness organization believe that to be the case? Because a contrary view would uproot their view of who CHRIST is. John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the FATHER, save HE which is of GOD, HE hath seen the FATHER.
 
LittleNipper said:
the view
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lol...it is not a view...it is what the scriptures declare...nice try though...

LittleNipper said:
John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the FATHER, save HE which is of GOD, HE hath seen the FATHER.
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Same thing...they are in unity/in agreement...I've heard the expression many times about human fathers and sons who look/act so much alike..."if you've seen the son, you've seen the father"...no mystery there...
 
Daisy said:
lol...it is not a view...it is what the scriptures declare...nice try though...
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Yeah .... pardon my reminding everyone that this is from the same scripture that declares you should kill your neighbor for working on the sabbath, and stone your daughter to death for not being a virgin on her wedding night.

Just sayin' ....
Daisy said:
Same thing...they are in unity/in agreement...I've heard the expression many times about human fathers and sons who look/act so much alike..."if you've seen the son, you've seen the father"...no mystery there...
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Daisy said:
lol...it is not a view...it is what the scriptures declare...nice try though...
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Which Scripture. The word of GOD or a translation by the writers of the Awake Magazine?
Daisy said:
Same thing...they are in unity/in agreement...I've heard the expression many times about human fathers and sons who look/act so much alike..."if you've seen the son, you've seen the father"...no mystery there...
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GOD is what the FATHER, the MESSIAH, and the HOLY SPIRIT are. They are GOD. There is no other GOD. A human Son may look like his Father only since they are both entirely HUMAN. It's you and not I who is missing the obvious, but it's most likely for obvious reasons. You cannot be a "Witness" and believe anything, but as you are told to believe.
 
MamboDervish said:
Yeah .... pardon my reminding everyone that this is from the same scripture that declares you should kill your neighbor for working on the sabbath, and stone your daughter to death for not being a virgin on her wedding night.
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Huh? I don't think so...John 10:37,38...
 
It packs three gods into one. That's not complex? He was his father, and that's not complex?
 
Manc Skipper said:
It packs three gods into one. That's not complex? He was his father, and that's not complex?
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ONE GOD in full communion with each of the other three persons in LOVE for all eternity. The MESSIAH is fully GOD and assumed the position of additionally becoming fully MAN. And as fully man, HE applied the term FATHER. The FATHER Creator assumed the roles of director, protector, provider, and disciplinarian. The HOLY SPIRIT Creator assumed the roles of comforter, guide, teacher, commissioner, and intercessor, The MESSIAH Creator assumed the roles of savior/redeemer, prophet, priest, and king. HOWEVER, being ONE GOD, what one accomplishes is experienced by the other two.
 
Snap crackle and pop is your best answer? It's silly. It's a tiny cult trying to maximise its membership in a pagan society with multiple gods.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Snap crackle and pop is your best answer? It's silly. It's a tiny cult trying to maximise its membership in a pagan society with multiple gods.
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No, Christianity is a fellowship of believers who have more on their side than chants, statues and incense. In a world full of counterfeit beliefs, designed by Satan to distort the truth --- Christianity might be evaluated, as you do, to be another stab at superstition. However, I do note that there is a real difference. And it isn't about painting one's face, lighting candles, nor touching one's head to the floor in a specific direction... It's all about getting to know GOD more deeply without any pretension. And part of that is understanding why HE went to the cross when HE had NOTHING to gain.
 


Jesus was teaching them a difficult lesson and Thomas was there. This gives proper understanding on the confession of Thomas:


(Joh 14:5) Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
(Joh 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(Joh 14:7) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
(Joh 14:8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
(Joh 14:9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
(Joh 14:10) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
(Joh 14:11) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.



Thomas, upon seeing the risen Christ now grasped this grand truth, that the Father was "in" Christ and makes the confession. The Father, whom Jesus calls the only True God dwelled 'in' Christ, doing the works and commanding Jesus the things to say.

Thomas is not saying Jesus is God, he is stating the things Jesus has been saying all along, namely that the Father is in him.......now he sees/believes.
 

One MUST regard the above in light of what the Father says regarding the MESSIAH/CHRIST/JESUS in other parts of the Bible.

Hebrews 1
God’s Final Word: His Son​

1 In the past GOD spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his SON, whom HE appointed heir of all things, and through whom also HE made the universe. 3 The SON is the radiance of GOD’s glory and the exact representation of HIS being, sustaining all things by HIS powerful word. After HE had provided purification for sins, HE sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So HE became as much superior to the angels as the name HE has inherited is superior to theirs.

The Son Superior to Angels​

5 For to which of the angels did GOD ever say,

“YOU are MY SON;
today I have become YOUR FATHER” (The answer is NONE )
Or again,
“I will be HIS FATHER,
and HE will be MY SON” (The answer again is NONE)

6 And again, when GOD brings HIS firstborn into the world, HE says, “Let all GOD’s angels worship HIM.” (How can the Witnesses explain how the angels can WORSHIP CHRIST and also seemingly CELEBRATE CHRIST's BIRTH; however humans are not supposed to do that)

7 In speaking of the angels HE says,

“HE makes HIS angels spirits,
and HIS servants flames of fire.”
8 But about the SON HE says,

“YOUR throne, O GOD, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of YOUR kingdom.
9 YOU have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore GOD, YOUR GOD, has set YOU above YOUR companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10 HE also says,

“In the beginning, LORD, YOU laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of YOUR hands.
11 They will perish, but YOU remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But YOU remain the same,
and YOUR years will never end.”
13 To which of the angels did GOD ever say,

“Sit at MY right hand
until I make YOUR enemies
a footstool for YOUR feet” (The answer is NONE --- if you didn't already know)
14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

In light of the above Thomas was in fact calling CHRIST both LORD & GOD ------ and was worshiping HIM. The Witnesses Organization will have LOTS to answer for come the Judgement. They sow confusion, they down play CHRIST's authority and they distort the Word in every effort to set themselves apart as spreading the truth when in fact they are spreading deceit and manipulating those they are deceiving.
 
LittleNipper, your post has nothing to do with the declaration of Thomas. You conveniently disregard the verses in John 14, which gives a biblical clear meaning to bring in other scriptures, which in reality support my position, not yours, lol.


Yes, of course Jesus was raised, glorified and given a position of authority over the angels, who sits to the right of God. Jesus is the Son of God, the Christ, raised to glory, having been given all power and authority from His Father and God.


(1Co 15:27) For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
(1Co 15:28) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Now, back to Thomas' declaration....Jesus said His Father is in him, to see him is to see the Father.....Thomas and the disciples had a hard time learning this lesson, but when Thomas saw the risen Christ, all doubt was removed for truly the Father must be 'in' Christ, for he just saw Jesus die a horrible death and now he's here standing in front of Thomas. Hence the declaration, "My Lord and my God".

Notice, "My Lord":

G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.
Total KJV occurrences: 748


Notice, "My God":

G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].
Total KJV occurrences: 1343


In the NT, Jesus is called "Lord" (kurios) and the Father called "God" (theos) many, many, many times.
 
Even secular scholars argue Jesus and his early followers believed he was God. It's only fringe non-trinitatian groups that make the case otherwise.
 
“The doctrine of the trinity . . . is not a product of the earliest Christian period, and we do not find it carefully expressed before the end of the second century.”—Library of Early Christianity—Gods and the One God.

What is the origin of the Trinity doctrine?

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

Taught by Early Christians?

DID the early Christians teach the Trinity? Note the following comments by historians and theologians:

“Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds.”—The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.

“The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the [Trinity] idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognised the . . . Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One.”—The Paganism in Our Christianity.

“At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the N[ew] T[estament] and other early Christian writings.”—Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics.

“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. . . . Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989302
 
So, do you think it's okay to celebrate Christmas? You really believe Thomas was that deep of thinker? I know that I upon seeing the risen CHRIST, I would have imagined CHRIST to be GOD. Nothing more, nothing less. Neither Thomas nor I would have had our lexicons handy and you give Thomas far too much credit ----- he was no more educated than any of us and perhaps a lot less. Thomas realized that he was seeing GOD, and I do too!
 
It's correct that the Trinitarian language took years to formulate to what we have today. Nonetheless, the early Christians still believed in the Trinity even if they didn't describe it in the same way. And how do we know this for certain? Because we have early writings from the Church Fathers. What's also important about their writings is it shows other theological doctrines that survived since the 1st century.

Read the letters from St. Ignatius and Polycarp. These are individuals who studied under the Apostles. And they taught Christ is God. Ignatius was the Bishop of Antioch which is the place historically where they were first referred to as Christians. Here is an article that goes into a deeper dive and references.

Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God

For those who think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ, here are thirty-six quotations from nine different church fathers that predate the Council of Nicea.
www.str.org

And a follow-up question. Why should I believe the governing body's interpretation of scripture over St. Ignatius the first century Bishop who studied under the Apostle John?
 
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No thanks...I really don't care what you believe...
 
The early CHURCH at the very least would not have seen CHRIST to be inferior to the FATHER. And the early CHURCH would have been incensed with individual's who denied the worship of CHRIST. They would see those that seek to make CHRIST inferior as heretics and unworthy of the name CHRISTian. The entire Bible is about CHRIST in one way or another. The "Jehovah's" Witnesses are all about themselves, their beliefs, their literature, and their translation. And every other church is apostate in their eyes. And they don't care what anyone believes outside the beliefs of their own organization. They do no investigate anything that they are told by their leaders... They just accept it. and reject everything else. They fear shunning and losing their salvation.
 
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Daisy said:
No thanks...I really don't care what you believe...
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Christians have believed this for 2 thousand years. And it's because Christ is God.And the Apostles taught their successors his Godhood. It's not just what I believe it's what historical Christianity teaches. What you do is re-interpret scripture. The Watchtower tried to be scholarly and seem like they understood Christianity more than those who shed blood for Christ. That's not Christianity it's a bunch of prideful people who do not bow their knees to the one true God. Do any of the Elders in your Kingdom Hall know Greek? Can they even study the N.T. in the original language? The priests at my local parish are all educated in Greek.
 
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