Oklahoma in the US opens first abortion clinic in 30 years

[WCH]

So 1% is your entire case ! :applaud :roll:

It's all or none with these people.

 

[minnie616]

You make this argument frequently and your evidence is still as shoddy as ever. Try to prove that RCRC represents an actual majority opinion of any mainline Christian religion. You can't because it doesn't. It is a tiny, progressive activist group that represents nobody but themselves.

And you are mistaken.
Three take very liberal pro choice positions.
Several are pro choice accompanied by certain provisions such as late term abortions or abortions for sex selection.

From the following:

7 Christian Denominations with Most Liberal Stance on Abortion

By Jacqueline Emigh | Friday, 08 May 2015 08:43 PM


Stances on abortion vary considerably among Christian denominations. The United Church of Christ, Unitarian Universalist Association, and Metropolitan Community Church hold the most accepting views on abortion, while several other denominations take pro-choice stances accompanied by certain provisos.


Here are the seven of the Christian denominations with the most liberal approaches to abortion.

1. United Church of Christ

Since 1971, the UCC has repeatedly reaffirmed that the availability of safe and legal abortions is consistent with a woman's right to "follow the dictates of her own faith," according to a UCC position paper.

In continuing attempts to keep abortion affordable to all women, in January 2015, the UCC sent out a press release expressing opposition to Home Rule (HR) 7, a proposed law by Congress that would ban federal funding of abortions.

2. Unitarian Universalist Association

Meanwhile, in a general resolution in effect since 1987, the UUA reaffirmed its longtime belief in women's rights to choose both contraception and abortion as an "expression of their constitutional rights."

Also, in the resolution, the group expresses support for the legislative funding of safe abortions for low-income women. They oppose any moves to deny government funds as a way of restricting access to contraceptive and abortion services.

3. Metropolitan Community Church

In a Statement of Faith issued in 2013, a smaller denomination, the MCC, also goes beyond a pro-choice stance to call on governments to make sure that women "have the right to choose their reproductive health care options and the means to exercise those options at their sole discretion."

4. Presbyterian Church USA

The Presbyterian Church USA and Evangelical Lutheran Church in America are essentially pro-choice, too. Both, however, oppose most late-term abortions where the fetus is viable.

While the Presbyterian Church contends that elective abortions can be "morally acceptable," it regards late-term abortions as a "grave moral concern" that should only be performed under rare circumstances, according to the Association of Christian Churches of South Dakota.

5. Evangelical Lutheran Church

While falling short of demanding federal funding of abortion, the Evangelical Lutheran Church believes that "abortion prior to viability should not be prohibited by law or by lack of public funding."

The Lutheran Church also argues, however, that abortions after the point of fetal viability should be banned unless either the mother's or child's life is at stake, according to a report by Pew Research Center.

6. Christ Church (Assembly of God)

Taking a more apolitical approach in the realm of Christian views on abortion, the Assembly of God opposes any attempts to "legislate a religious opinion on abortion for all Americans," according to the ACCSD. At the same time, it supports both "the sacredness of life for all persons" and "a woman's right to reproductive freedom."

7. United Methodist Church

Although less liberal on Christian abortion than some other faiths, the UMC supports the legal option of abortion under certain circumstances.

"We recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases we support the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures by certified medical providers,” according to a UMC statement.

However, the church does not condone abortion as an acceptable method of birth control, gender selection, or eugenics.

7 Christian Denominations with Most Liberal Stance on Abortion

 

[jmotivator]

And you are mistaken.
Three take very liberal pro choice positions.
Several are pro choice accompanied by certain provisions such as late term abortions or abortions for sex selection.

From the following:



7 Christian Denominations with Most Liberal Stance on Abortion

Like I said, those aren't "mainline" denominations. The biggest on the list is about 1% the size of the Catholic Church.

 

[minnie616]

Like I said, those aren't "mainline" denominations. The biggest on the list is about 1% the size of the Catholic Church.

I said mainline Christian/Protestant churches.

Plus I was actually talking US churches.

I said nothing about the Catholic Church.

And I don't care what the Catholic Church says...The Catholic Church is not considered mainline Protestant.

But since you want to know worldwide population ...

The Lutheran Church has an estimated 80 million members.
It constitutes one of the largest Protestant denominations.

The United Methodist Church has 12.1 million members world wide and 7.1 million in the United States.
The United Methodist Church (UMC) is a mainline Protestant denomination that is part of the Methodist movement.

 

[SMTA]

He was cast out because of pride that originated from his desire to be God instead of a servant of God. Satan was the highest of all the angels, but he wasn’t happy. He desired to be God and rule the universe. God cast Satan out of heaven as a fallen angel.

He spends his time deceiving humans into rebelling against God.

Humans didn't have free will until after Jesus was crucified. God did all the punishment up until then.

Humans have had free will since day one.

 

[minnie616]

Like I said, those aren't "mainline" denominations. The biggest on the list is about 1% the size of the Catholic Church.

From wiki:

Protestantism is the largest group of Christianity in the United States, with its combined denominations accounting for about half the country's population. The United States is also the home for 20% of the world's Protestants, or some 150 million people, making it the country with the largest number of Protestants.

Protestants are divided into many different denominations, which are generally classified as either "mainline" or "evangelical".

The mainline Protestant churches (also called mainstream American Protestant[1] and oldline Protestant)[2][3][4][5] are a group of Protestant churches in the United States that contrast in history and practice with evangelical, fundamentalist, and charismatic ...

Mainline churches include the so-called Seven Sisters of American Protestantism—

the United Methodist Church (UMC),
the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA),
the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) (PCUSA), the Episcopal Church,
the American Baptist Churches,
the United Church of Christ (Congregationalist),
and the Disciples of Christ—
as well as the Quakers, Reformed Church in America, and other churches.

 

[minnie616]

Like I said, those aren't "mainline" denominations. ....

You said :"any mainline Christian religion ."

You make this argument frequently and your evidence is still as shoddy as ever. Try to prove that RCRC represents an actual majority opinion of any mainline Christian religion. You can't because it doesn't. It is a tiny, progressive activist group that represents nobody but themselves.

 

[nota bene]

Julie Burkhart, Director of Trust Women, which will be opening this clinic, says:

For 30 years, Dr. George Tiller kept the doors of his clinic, Women’s Health Care Services, open despite constant harassment from anti-choice activists and politicians and routine violence from anti-choice terrorists. I worked with Dr. Tiller for seven years and witnessed daily his compassion and commitment to the women he served. I founded Trust Women to honor his commitment and continue his work. Trust Women is committed to protecting — through direct services, communications and advocacy — the rights of pregnant people everywhere, especially in Midwestern and Southern states. About Trust Women | Abortion Clinics | Wichita, KansasiTrustWomen

Oklahoma lawmakers pass bill to ban abortion | The Wichita Eagle

 

[minnie616]

The Oklahoma governor vetoed the 2016 controversial abortion bill, saying it would never survive in the courts.

Washington (CNN)Oklahoma Gov. Mary Fallin on Friday vetoed a bill that would criminalize abortion procedures in the state.

Oklahoma Legislature passes bill criminalizing abortion - CNNPolitics.com

 

[jmotivator]

I said mainline Christian/Protestant churches.

Plus I was actually talking US churches.

I said nothing about the Catholic Church.

Yeah, there aren't any Catholics in the US. :roll:

And I don't care what the Catholic Church says...The Catholic Church is not considered mainline Protestant.

You don't stack up well against Baptists either. Face it, pro-abortion Christianity is fringe.

But since you want to know worldwide population ...

The Lutheran Church has an estimated 80 million members.
It constitutes one of the largest Protestant denominations.

Or roughly 0.7% the size of the Catholic Church.

The United Methodist Church has 12.1 million members world wide and 7.1 million in the United States.

1.2% and 0.6% respectively.

The United Methodist Church (UMC) is a mainline Protestant denomination that is part of the Methodist movement.

Says you. Also, it happens to be the one Church on your list that doesn't support abortion except when the life of the mother is at stake, and position taken by pretty much everyone since losing 1 life is better than losing 2.

 

[minnie616]

Yeah, there aren't any Catholics in the US.

The Catholic Church is not a mainline Christian religion.

You said any mainline Christian religion.

You make this argument frequently and your evidence is still as shoddy as ever. Try to prove that RCRC represents an actual majority opinion of any mainline Christian religion. You can't because it doesn't. It is a tiny, progressive activist group that represents nobody but themselves.

 

[minnie616]

...



You don't stack up well against Baptists either.
....

And you are mistaken about the Baptists.

Abortion can be a highly moral choice for a woman. The distortion of our faiths to anti-woman and anti-scientific and anti-medical rhetoric proves catastrophic for women and children and their families. This argument demeans the sexuality of women and treats them like children with adult bodies.

There is a pragmatic argument that sneakily demeans women as moral agents. Unwanted pregnancies cause poverty and release unprepared children into a world that increasingly refuses to sustain them. But that “practical” argument is not why women can have morally good abortions. We can have morally good abortions because we are human beings, with God-given rights to human agency, just like men.

Women are moral agents. Women are capable of making soulful, moral decisions about their own bodies. Assuming that a woman cannot decide for herself if and when to bear a child demeans women. Mandatory childbearing makes the woman a hostage to the will of others — those unfamiliar with her story, her life experience and her needs, and may have disastrous consequences for the children. Medical choices, like terminating a pregnancy, are medically available. Other life sustaining medical procedures are not considered immoral. Why the complaint against abortion?

Our faith tradition teaches soul competency, a Baptist principle that is violated in restricting the right to choose an abortion. Our forebears suffered greatly, even to the point of death, to express their conviction that no one stands between the individual and God.

Furthermore, it is a it is God-given right to hold your own belief and to reject state-sponsored religion. This is the core Baptist principle of soul competency — belief in the ability of each person to “rightly divide the word of God” (2 Timothy 2: 15) and act accordingly. Each person and each community of believers has the right to follow the dictates of their conscience, without compulsion from authoritative structures. Therefore, current legislation restricting women’s reproductive choice also restricts moral choice. To restrict a woman’s choice is to refuse her soul freedom.

Most Women Under 40 Haven't Heard the Pro-choice Moral Argument

The Baptists pushed for separation of Church and State to protect their religion and their soul competency.

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that and Article VI specifies that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." ...

Echoing the language of the founder of the first Baptist church in America, Roger Williams—who had written in 1644 of "[A] hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world"—Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States

 

[minnie616]

.... Also, it happens to be the one Church on your list that doesn't support abortion except when the life of the mother is at stake, and position taken by pretty much everyone since losing 1 life is better than losing 2.

And you misread the position of the Methodist Church. They make exceptions for abortions in more cases than just to save the life of the woman, including fetal abnormalities, and incest.

The United Methodist Church
began in the early 1970s to view abortion as a "choice". The United Methodist position in favor of abortion has been so strong that two of its institutions helped organize and affiliate with the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights. For many years RCAR used office space in the United Methodist Building which is located across the street from the U.S. Supreme Court. In both 1996 and 1997 the United Methodist Church publicly supported President Clinton’s veto of the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act. While the 1996 United Methodist Church’s Book of Discipline still maintains a strong pro-abortion position, it now includes wording recognizing the "sanctity of unborn human life." It further states, "We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection."

 

[minnie616]

.... Also, it happens to be the one Church on your list that doesn't support abortion except when the life of the mother is at stake, and position taken by pretty much everyone since losing 1 life is better than losing 2.

And you misread the position of the Methodist Church. They make exceptions for abortions in more cases than just to save the life of the woman, including but not limited to fetal abnormalities,rape, and incest


The United Methodist Church
began in the early 1970s to view abortion as a "choice". The United Methodist position in favor of abortion has been so strong that two of its institutions helped organize and affiliate with the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights. For many years RCAR used office space in the United Methodist Building which is located across the street from the U.S. Supreme Court. In both 1996 and 1997 the United Methodist Church publicly supported President Clinton’s veto of the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act. While the 1996 United Methodist Church’s Book of Discipline still maintains a strong pro-abortion position, it now includes wording recognizing the "sanctity of unborn human life." It further states, "We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection."


From RCRC history:

1973 | Mainline Protestant and Jewish leaders meet at the United Methodist Building in Washington, DC, to discuss the Roman Catholic Church’s pledge to overturn the new U.S. Supreme Court decision Roe v. Wade. This meeting, called by the United Methodist Board of Church and Society, leads to the formation of the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights (RCAR).

History | Religious Coalition For Reproductive Choice

 

[jmotivator]

And you misread the position of the Methodist Church. They make exceptions for abortions in more cases than just to save the life of the woman, including but not limited to fetal abnormalities,rape, and incest

The United Methodist Church
began in the early 1970s to view abortion as a "choice". The United Methodist position in favor of abortion has been so strong that two of its institutions helped organize and affiliate with the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights. For many years RCAR used office space in the United Methodist Building which is located across the street from the U.S. Supreme Court. In both 1996 and 1997 the United Methodist Church publicly supported President Clinton’s veto of the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act. While the 1996 United Methodist Church’s Book of Discipline still maintains a strong pro-abortion position, it now includes wording recognizing the "sanctity of unborn human life." It further states, "We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection."

From RCRC history:

History | Religious Coalition For Reproductive Choice

Maybe if you actually read the Church's comments on abortion today...

"We oppose the use of late-term abortion known as dilation and extraction (partial-birth abortion) and call for the end of this practice except when the physical life of the mother is in danger and no other medical procedure is available, or in the case of severe fetal anomalies incompatible with life. This procedure shall be performed only by certified medical providers. Before providing their services, abortion providers should be required to offer women the option of anesthesia."

That seems a rather different stance than the one painted by your source.

They do not support partial birth abortion, or any abortion really, unless the mother's life is at risk. If we limited abortions in the US to only those supported by the UMC we'd eliminate almost all abortions in the US.

 

[jmotivator]

And you are mistaken about the Baptists.

Most Women Under 40 Haven't Heard the Pro-choice Moral Argument

The Baptists pushed for separation of Church and State to protect their religion and their soul competency.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States

And again, you try every avenue to support you belief other than going directly to the source:

SBC position on Abortion


"Be it further RESOLVED, That we call upon all Southern Baptists to renew their commitment to support and work for legislation and/or constitutional amendment which will prohibit abortion except to save the physical life of the mother; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we encourage Southern Baptists to inquire whether or not their physicians perform abortions on demand or give referrals for abortions, and that we commend those of the medical profession who abstain from performing abortions or making abortion referrals; and

Be it finally RESOLVED, That we urge our agencies and institutions to provide leadership for our cooperating churches and members, by preparing literature to take a clear and strong stand against abortion, and to inform and motivate our members to action to eliminate abortion on demand."

Maybe you should avoid posing a single author for a left wing website as the voice of an entire religious sect....

I mean, have you even looked at the Judson Church website? It is the Church of SJW... where does it align even a little with the Baptist faith?

 

[jmotivator]

And you are mistaken about the Baptists.

Most Women Under 40 Haven't Heard the Pro-choice Moral Argument

Furthermore, it should be pointed out that Judson Church is most definitely NOT a mainline Christian church...

 

[minnie616]

Maybe if you actually read the Church's comments on abortion today...

"We oppose the use of late-term abortion known as dilation and extraction (partial-birth abortion) and call for the end of this practice except when the physical life of the mother is in danger and no other medical procedure is available, or in the case of severe fetal anomalies incompatible with life. This procedure shall be performed only by certified medical providers. Before providing their services, abortion providers should be required to offer women the option of anesthesia."

That seems a rather different stance than the one painted by your source.

They do not support partial birth abortion, or any abortion really, unless the mother's life is at risk. If we limited abortions in the US to only those supported by the UMC we'd eliminate almost all abortions in the US.

I am aware of the United Methodist position on abprtion.

The General Board of Church and Society and United Methodist Women are both members of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, a coalition that includes religious and public-interest groups.

It’s also important to note that the Church's statements on social issues, such as abortion, are intended to be instructive and persuasive, but they are not church law and are not binding on members. Members will hold differing views on abortion. There is no requirement for members to agree with the Church’s view.


The Book of Resolutions also says, “You may find that your denomination's policies give you more "food for thought." Maybe you will agree with the denomination's position. On the other hand, you may disagree. Either is all right."

During the 1950s and 60s my father was the Superintendent of Sunday School and in charge of all of the Sunday School programs in our church.

Small Group Coordinator and/or Church School (Sunday School) Superintendent - Discipleship Ministries | Equipping World-Changing Disciples

 

[minnie616]

Furthermore, it should be pointed out that Judson Church is most definitely NOT a mainline Christian church...

You are correct Judson Church is NOT mainline.
The article however is about the mainline American Baptist Church.

 

[minnie616]

And again, you try every avenue to support you belief other than going directly to the source:

SBC position on Abortion


...

Southern Baptist separated from the mainline American Baptist Church and have their own opinion.

America Baptist Church:

We recognize that we are divided as to the proper witness of the church to the state regarding abortion. Many of our membership seek legal safeguards to protect unborn life. Many others advocate for and support family planning legislation, including legalized abortion as in the best interest of women in particular and society in general. Again, we have many points of view between these two positions. Consequently, we acknowledge the freedom of each individual to advocate for a public policy on abortion that reflects his or her beliefs.

 

[yankintx]

Southern Baptist separated from the mainline American Baptist Church and have their own opinion.

America Baptist Church:

We recognize that we are divided as to the proper witness of the church to the state regarding abortion. Many of our membership seek legal safeguards to protect unborn life. Many others advocate for and support family planning legislation, including legalized abortion as in the best interest of women in particular and society in general. Again, we have many points of view between these two positions. Consequently, we acknowledge the freedom of each individual to advocate for a public policy on abortion that reflects his or her beliefs.

If OK secedes, the national IQ would be raised by several points, and we could get rid of one of those welfare states.

 

[jmotivator]

You are correct Judson Church is NOT mainline.
The article however is about the mainline American Baptist Church.

And I would rather the direct opinion of the actual Church than an article by a fringe left wing preacher.

 

[jmotivator]

Southern Baptist separated from the mainline American Baptist Church and have their own opinion.

America Baptist Church:

We recognize that we are divided as to the proper witness of the church to the state regarding abortion. Many of our membership seek legal safeguards to protect unborn life. Many others advocate for and support family planning legislation, including legalized abortion as in the best interest of women in particular and society in general. Again, we have many points
of view between these two positions. Consequently, we acknowledge the freedom of each individual to advocate for a public policy on abortion that reflects his or her beliefs.

Wow Minnie, you know how to pick them. The ABC is less than 1% of American Baptists! :lamo

 

[jmotivator]

Wow Minnie, you know how to pick them. The ABC is less than 1% of American Baptists! :lamo

Typo here. American Baptists are less than 10% of size of Southern Baptists, not 1%. SBC congregation is about 15 million, ABC is 1.4 million.

 

[minnie616]

Wow Minnie, you know how to pick them. The ABC...

I didn't pick Baptisis.

But thanks to the Baptists our US First Amendment has a separation of Church and State.

As I posted earlier:

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that and Article VI specifies that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." ...

Echoing the language of the founder of the first Baptist church in America, Roger Williams—who had written in 1644 of "[A] hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world"—Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States