Obtaining an illegal abortion [W:306]

[Scrabaholic]

Discrimination is illegal and it can wind up getting a business owner sued, but you obviously think discrimination should be legal and protected, so how can you honestly say you don't support discrimination?

The same way one can support the right to choose abortion, but not support the act of aborting.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

It seemed to me that you were claiming that she was saying that the rates where it is legal are just as high as when they were illegal, not that they are just as high where legal as where illegal.

wasn't that what she was basically saying: that making it illegal will have little or no impact on the rates of occurrence? Also, the above seems like a distinction without a difference. But maybe she will chime in here and clarify her views

^See the above^

No, I have not heard of it, but it makes sense that if you do not allow contraception you will have more unwanted and uncared for children.

Yeah, the obvious assumption is that limiting access to birth control and/or abortion would decrease the occurrence of use for each. But maybe I'm just misunderstanding her position





No, I have not heard of it, but it makes sense that if you do not allow contraception you will have more unwanted and uncared for children.[/QUOTE]

 

[Henrin]

The same way one can support the right to choose abortion, but not support the act of aborting.

I don't think she sees how the two issues are similar.

 

[Scrabaholic]

An embryo has more value than any health concerns you may have about gestating or every other aspect of pregnancy. Also, your identity and any negative mental health reactions that may result have no significance.

No, it doesn't. My health concerns trump any value the embryo may have, though I believe it only has the value the woman and possibly her partner assign to it.

I'm trying to figure out why you say you are prochoice given the above statement by you.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Watch Children Underground online | Free | Hulu

for anyone interested here is free access to "children underground". It's an amazing documentary on the street children of Romania, from 2001. it's a tough watch and the horrors of their everyday life go uncensored, so don't watch if you're a bleeding heart

here's the trailer

 

[GEIxBattleRifle]

If it's a violation of human rights, then why do they allow it in the first trimester?

I really don't think it's about human rights anymore. If it was, then abortion would've been illegal everywhere around the world but it isn't. Medical Science and the governments around the world know that a human life begins at conception yet they still have abortions legal in at least the first trimester where the vast majority of abortions are done anyways hmmm....

I find no particular reason for a species of highly advanced animal to commit themselves to include every member of their species in their definition of personhood. Times are quickly changing and lifers don't like that one bit at all.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

then abortion would've been illegal everywhere around the world but it isn't

How does that make sense? What is and isn't a human right is a philosophical position, not some empirical data point

 

[SheWolf]

If it's safe and easy why are they dieing
everyday?

You can't ban it because woman can abort at home safely, but if you ban it, women will die from unsafe abortions?? Even you should see the circular logic you're spouting.

Don't confuse my arguments with other peoples.

Women are currently dying in high numbers in parts if the works where abortion is illegal. Let's not ignore that fact. I have seen little proof that home abortion is safe, but it may one day become safer.

So I'll ask you again, how do feel about all the women currently dying from illegal abortions in South America and other parts of the world? What is the value of their lives to you?

 

[mac]

If it's a violation of human rights, then why do they allow it in the first trimester?

Abortion in Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[mac]

Don't confuse my arguments with other peoples.

Actually, I did get you and Smoke confused.

Women are currently dying in high numbers in parts if the works where abortion is illegal. Let's not ignore that fact. I have seen little proof that home abortion is safe, but it may one day become safer.

Women are dying in high numbers all over the world for a lot of reasons. Dying as a result of one's own choice, though regrettable, is less of a concern to me than those dying for reasons not of her own choosing.

So I'll ask you again, how do feel about all the women currently dying from illegal abortions in South America and other parts of the world? What is the value of their lives to you?

They're lives are of equal value as anyone else's. So is their free will, and their right to engage in risky choices that endangers their lives.

 

[nota bene]

I find no particular reason for a species of highly advanced animal to commit themselves to include every member of their species in their definition of personhood. Times are quickly changing and lifers don't like that one bit at all.

Ask not for whom the bell tolls....

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

I have seen little proof that home abortion is safe, but it may one day become safer.

Home abortion using medical abortion pills in the first trimester is safe. All one needs to do is get an ultrasound to confirm the advancement of the pregnancy and rule out complicating issues like ectopic pregnancy.

Medical abortion pills can be acquired from various reliable organizations, even if you live in a country where it's illegal.

Studies show that it is safe for women to perform these types of abortions themselves without medical supervision, or even an in-clinic follow up. Cases of complication do not increase, and the risks are similar to miscarriage.

Evidence suggests that most women can handle most steps of the medical abortion process themselves, effectively and safely. The utility of clinic visits to ingest mifepristone and misoprostol is questionable. For many women, even the follow-up visit could perhaps be replaced by telephone follow-up, combined with home pregnancy tests. Alternatives to the present protocol might allow greater control, comfort, and convenience at lower cost.

Could American women use mifepristone-misopros... [Contraception. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI

In the US, medical abortions are usually only performed up to 9 weeks. That is because after 9 weeks, the risk for incomplete abortion rises to about 5%. But for a woman living in a country where abortion is illegal, that is still a very small risk, and one worth taking.

Also, doctors won't be able to tell the difference between a miscarriage and a medical abortion, so they will treat her for the incomplete "miscarriage."

 

[Henrin]

I find no particular reason for a species of highly advanced animal to commit themselves to include every member of their species in their definition of personhood.

You seem to be evolving well. :doh

 

[choiceone]

Just because I understand property owners have the right to determine access to their property which allows them to leave out certain groups of people or pay them less does not mean I support anyone doing anything of the sort. I'm sorry, but property rights has to allow discrimination of the use of that property or else ownership of that property is in question.

Then why do you think a woman has no right to determine access to her body on a zygote by zygote, blastocyst by blastocyst basis?

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

this is the only study I could find on the Guttmacher website that would seem to correspond to the article. But the date is off by a year(the study was published a year after the article) and doesn't mention the issue in the executive summery.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/Abortion-Worldwide.pdf

does anyone at least know the title of the paper cited in the NYT article? I didn't see it mentioned in the article itself

 

[choiceone]

Ownership simply means that someone has the exclusive right to use and control a particular thing. If the government is saying property owners can not deny people from using their property the ownership alignment of property is in question.



I'm sorry that you see it that way, but I do not support people discriminating against others.

Actually, the SC, in determining that you cannot make anti-abortion laws prior to viability that deny women's exclusive right to use and control their own bodies, is in fact doing what you claim here to support, so how do you square your anti-abortion views with this one?

 

[SheWolf]

Home abortion using medical abortion pills in the first trimester is
safe. All one needs to do is get an ultrasound to confirm the advancement of the pregnancy and rule out complicating issues like ectopic pregnancy.

Medical abortion pills can be acquired from various reliable organizations, even if you live in a country where it's illegal.

Studies show that it is safe for women to perform these types of abortions themselves without medical supervision, or even an in-clinic follow up. Cases of complication do not increase, and the risks are similar to miscarriage.



Could American women use mifepristone-misopros... [Contraception. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI

In the US, medical abortions are usually only performed up to 9 weeks. That is because after 9 weeks, the risk for incomplete abortion rises to about 5%. But for a woman living in a country where abortion is illegal, that is still a very small risk, and one worth taking.

Also, doctors won't be able to tell the difference between a miscarriage and a medical abortion, so they will treat her for the incomplete "miscarriage."

I would assume getting those pills is not easy, because women are still dying from illegal abortion.

I have never seen the websites that sell those pills myself, and I wonderful about the overall risk buying such pills online. I assume it's not legal anywhere to sell and market the pills to people. I would also think some places selling the pills could be selling fake pills.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

I would assume getting those pills is not easy, because women are still dying from illegal abortion.

I have never seen the websites that sell those pills myself, and I wonderful about the overall risk buying such pills online. I assume it's not legal anywhere to sell and market the pills to people. I would also think some places selling the pills could be selling fake pills.

It's getting easier all the time. Check out Women on Waves. They will send them *anywhere.*

All of these things are concerns, but the network for providing abortion resources to women in anti-choice countries is getting better and better.

 

[Henrin]

Then why do you think a woman has no right to determine access to her body on a zygote by zygote, blastocyst by blastocyst basis?

The balance of rights of the two parties. One can not simply use the right to their body to kill their child due to the fact that the unborn child has the same right she herself has.

 

[Henrin]

Actually, the SC, in determining that you cannot make anti-abortion laws prior to viability that deny women's exclusive right to use and control their own bodies, is in fact doing what you claim here to support, so how do you square your anti-abortion views with this one?

Sadly there is some merit to that argument that I can not refute, but their starting point ignores that a human being was already created and its rights established.

 

[Bonzai]

The balance of rights of the two parties. One can not simply use the right to their body to kill their child due to the fact that the unborn child has the same right she herself has.

The Right has basically failed to convince people outside the South that fetuses have rights...........................

 

[Henrin]

The Right has basically failed to convince people outside the South that fetuses have rights...........................

I wouldn't know.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

I have never seen the websites that sell those pills myself, and I wonderful about the overall risk buying such pills online. I assume it's not legal anywhere to sell and market the pills to people. I would also think some places selling the pills could be selling fake pills.

Many developing countries, where abortion and contraception is most likely to be restricted have pretty relaxed controls on most medications, so doubt it would be hard to get nondescript pills through postal customs. Where the issue is likely to be is actually getting them their mail

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Many developing countries, where abortion and contraception is most likely to be restricted have pretty relaxed controls on most medications, so doubt it would be hard to get nondescript pills through postal customs. Where the issue is likely to be is actually getting them their mail

Actually, the way it works is rather interesting.

The particular org I mentioned literally operates on a boat and ships from international waters.

It is not hard to get. It's really just a matter of whether or not the woman is aware such resources exist.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Actually, the way it works is rather interesting.

The particular org I mentioned literally operates on a boat and ships from international waters.

It is not hard to get. It's really just a matter of whether or not the woman is aware such resources exist.

I'm more talking about customs entering the country of destination. Where it ships from isn't really going to matter for that. And the issue with actually receiving mail in these places, having access to the internet, etc, probably makes acquiring them impossible for the majority of the population. At most, it would be restricted to the educated urban set