Obamacare Questions

[davidtaylorjr]

I disagree

How so?

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Don't you get that all these years it has been the sick being denied coverage that has subsidized those cheaper rates? You were able to get an affordable health plan only because people with heart conditions and cancer were shown the door.

That is pretty much BS. Sure there are some cases where it was denied but given there are about 1.5 million NEW cancer cases per year, more than 1/2 million bypass surgeries done per year and millions of people with heart disease the overwhelming majority of people who need care get it under insurance.

 

[MaggieD]

That is pretty much BS. Sure there are some cases where it was denied but given there are about 1.5 million NEW cancer cases per year, more than 1/2 million bypass surgeries done per year and millions of people with heart disease the overwhelming majority of people who need care get it under insurance.

If one worked for a large company, then you're right. If a person worked for a company with 40-50 or even 200 employees? Notsomuch. If one was self-employed? Not at all. Roughly ten million Americans are self-employed.

If a company has 50 or 100 employees, they are able to buy insurance as a group -- making enrollment automatic with no pre-existing conditions exclusion -- by law before Obamacare. HOWEVER, if one person is driving rates through the roof? Guess what? Sans employment contract, that "one person" is likely to find himself out of a job.

A person who loses their health insurance by getting laid off or fired from a huge company? They're stuck with COBRA for a period of time -- rates astronomical -- so high, in fact, that the greater majority of people can't even afford COBRA -- and after that runs out? They're screwed under the old system. They cannot (could not) buy health insurance at ANY price.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

If one worked for a large company, then you're right. If a person worked for a company with 40-50 or even 200 employees? Notsomuch. If one was self-employed? Not at all. Roughly ten million Americans are self-employed.

If a company has 50 or 100 employees, they are able to buy insurance as a group -- making enrollment automatic with no pre-existing conditions exclusion -- by law before Obamacare. HOWEVER, if one person is driving rates through the roof? Guess what? Sans employment contract, that "one person" is likely to find himself out of a job.

A person who loses their health insurance by getting laid off or fired from a huge company? They're stuck with COBRA for a period of time -- rates astronomical -- so high, in fact, that the greater majority of people can't even afford COBRA -- and after that runs out? They're screwed under the old system. They cannot (could not) buy health insurance at ANY price.

The largest company I have worked for in the past 20 years had 25 employees. In those companies there have been people with cancer, heart attacks, nervous disorders and many other type of problems. None were ever denied health insurance. The vast majority of people with serious medical issues get coverage under insurance. Given the high number of serious disease cases that crop up every year, year after year, the simple fact that people aren't dropping like flies should tell you that most get treatment and most are covered under insurance.

Sure you can find exceptions in the 15 million new cancer patients over the past 10 years. Sure you can find examples in the 50 million diabetes cases that cropped up in that time period. But you can also point out that tens of millions of people with these problems received treatment. Even after Obamacare goes into effect you will still find examples of people not getting the treatment but it will then be explained away as something that just happens or blamed on the individual.

 

[aberrant85]

That is pretty much BS. Sure there are some cases where it was denied but given there are about 1.5 million NEW cancer cases per year, more than 1/2 million bypass surgeries done per year and millions of people with heart disease the overwhelming majority of people who need care get it under insurance.

I would say you are unbelievable, but actually I think you pretty much sum up the opposing argument: the majority of Americans have health insurance, therefore what's the problem?

Even if Obamacare leaves some people still without care, by increasing the number with care by millions it is improving our society. It should be noted that it would cover even more but 26 Red States have refused the Medicaid expansion payed for by the federal government, leaving millions of poor still uninsured.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

I would say you are unbelievable,

What part is unbelievable?

 

[aberrant85]

What part is unbelievable?

Unbelievable that you think that the fact that a majority of Americans have health insurance is good enough. If 95% of people had access to health care we should ask why the other 5% don't. No one should fall through the cracks.

I also find that the people that oppose Obamacare because they will be paying to cover other people with no benefits to them have no idea how much they will benefit from this.

You say that since you have a job that gives you insurance that you're set. But before Obamacare that's not the full story. You would have been constantly at risk of losing your insurance if you lost your job for any reason. If you had a preexisting condition, too bad.

Because of Obamacare, every working American will have infinitely more security than they do today.

 

[MaggieD]

Unbelievable that you think that the fact that a majority of Americans have health insurance is good enough. If 95% of people had access to health care we should ask why the other 5% don't. No one should fall through the cracks.

I also find that the people that oppose Obamacare because they will be paying to cover other people with no benefits to them have no idea how much they will benefit from this.

You say that since you have a job that gives you insurance that you're set. But before Obamacare that's not the full story. You would have been constantly at risk of losing your insurance if you lost your job for any reason. If you had a preexisting condition, too bad.

Because of Obamacare, every working American will have infinitely more security than they do today.

People who've never had to go out and buy their own insurance don't get it. "What's the problem??" they say. "It was perfect before. For me For now...."

 

[OscarB63]

Because of Obamacare, every working American will have infinitely more security than they do today.

wrong. I am a working american. I already have insurance. my premiums and taxes will go up because of Obamacare. in what way does that provide me "infinitely more" security than I have today?

and don't give me the "if you lose your job, you lose your insurance" crappola. If I lose my job...I'm not going to be able to afford obamacare either. so what benefit do I get?

 

[clownboy]

People who've never had to go out and buy their own insurance don't get it. "What's the problem??" they say. "It was perfect before. For me For now...."

Maggie, it's never been like that. Even in my father's day, when he worked for the DOJ, he always had to make healthcare decisions and manage his insurance. It was not a set it and forget it sort of thing.

 

[aberrant85]

People who've never had to go out and buy their own insurance don't get it. "What's the problem??" they say. "It was perfect before. For me For now...."

I honestly don't even believe anyone was even that happy with their work provided insurance. Almost every plan I've had through work was a pain in the ass, the network was constrained and using it was confusing. My primary doctor would send me to specialists outside of my network, and then the plan was useless.

Who knows if I can get better coverage with Obamacare, but I'll try.

 

[MaggieD]

Maggie, it's never been like that. Even in my father's day, when he worked for the DOJ, he always had to make healthcare decisions and manage his insurance. It was not a set it and forget it sort of thing.

Well, I can't speak for your dad, Clownboy. But people who never had to go into the marketplace and buy their own do not have a CLUE as to the problems others had before this new healthcare legislation. If he got it from his company and never lost it and had to go on COBRA? He didn't understand the problems others had when it happened to them. Your dad's insurance was probably very heavily subsidized by his employer (Dept of Justice? That was probably quite a heavy subsidy.) He probably had no idea what it really cost. And wouldn't have unless he lost his job and tried to take advantage of the lame COBRA option the government mandated for people in that position.

Imagine you're a guy married with two kids. You just got laid off. You lose your insurance in thirty days. You're offered COBRA and find that the premiums are $900 or more a month for your coverage. And your unemployed. You're screwed. What happened with people like that is they took the first job they could get as fast as they could to avoid having to pay that $900 or, worse, go without any insurance at all.

Really. It wasn't pretty. Managing one's insurance options through work is a far cry from what entrepreneurs and people who lose their jobs went through. If these people had pre-existing conditions? They couldn't buy insurance at any price.

 

[aberrant85]

wrong. I am a working american. I already have insurance. my premiums and taxes will go up because of Obamacare. in what way does that provide me "infinitely more" security than I have today?

and don't give me the "if you lose your job, you lose your insurance" crappola. If I lose my job...I'm not going to be able to afford obamacare either. so what benefit do I get?

Then you don't get it. If you developed an extremely expensive condition, which can cost millions of dollars, there are no caps on coverage, like there were before.

If you lose your job AND you ACTUALLY can't afford coverage then you will get SUBSIDIES that cover your new plan so you CAN afford it.

If you are too poor for subsidies then you would qualify for Medicaid, except Alabama and most of the Deep South has refused the federal funds for this out of spite. So you might have to move to a civilized state like Arkansas.

This is all common knowledge, even if you aren't aware of it, don't worry, you'll still benefit.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Unbelievable that you think that the fact that a majority of Americans have health insurance is good enough. If 95% of people had access to health care we should ask why the other 5% don't. No one should fall through the cracks.

Then why do you support Obamacare when more than 5% will still be without healthcare even if it is fully implemented?

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

I honestly don't even believe anyone was even that happy with their work provided insurance.

Before Obamacare was shoved down everyone's throat over 85% of people who had insurance were satisfied with it. Considering over 85% had insurance and 85% were satisfied with it, it seems like we scrapped a system that most people were happy with and replaced it with one that most people think should be dismantled. Great fricking idea!

 

[OscarB63]

Imagine you're a guy married with two kids. You just got laid off. You lose your insurance in thirty days. You're offered COBRA and find that the premiums are $900 or more a month for your coverage. And your unemployed. You're screwed. What happened with people like that is they took the first job they could get as fast as they could to avoid having to pay that $900 or, worse, go without any insurance at all.

Really. It wasn't pretty. Managing one's insurance options through work is a far cry from what entrepreneurs and people who lose their jobs went through. If these people had pre-existing conditions? They couldn't buy insurance at any price.

the only benefit I see it the "pre-existing conditions" bit. let's be honest. if you're a guy married with two kids and you get laid off, you are still screwed with obamacare because it is going to be more than you can afford. you're going to be in the same boat you were before obamacare, unless you have pre-existing conditions.

 

[OscarB63]

Before Obamacare was shoved down everyone's throat over 85% of people who had insurance were satisfied with it. Considering over 85% had insurance and 85% were satisfied with it, it seems like we scrapped a system that most people were happy with and replaced it with one that most people think should be dismantled. Great fricking idea!

before Obamacare crap started we had excellent coverage. since this whole thing started...premiums have gone up, coverage has gone down, now having co-pays for crap that used to be included.

 

[clownboy]

Then you don't get it. If you developed an extremely expensive condition, which can cost millions of dollars, there are no caps on coverage, like there were before.

If you lose your job AND you ACTUALLY can't afford coverage then you will get SUBSIDIES that cover your new plan so you CAN afford it.

If you are too poor for subsidies then you would qualify for Medicaid, except Alabama and most of the Deep South has refused the federal funds for this out of spite. So you might have to move to a civilized state like Arkansas.

This is all common knowledge, even if you aren't aware of it, don't worry, you'll still benefit.

You seem unclear as to what insurance is. Basically you pay into a large pool which you are entitled to draw from as the covered need arises. You don't get to exhaust the pool or pull disproportionately from it.

As to caps on coverage, sounds like BS. Got any proof that there are no caps under Obamacare? That would bankrupt the system in a heartbeat.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Imagine you're a guy married with two kids. You just got laid off. You lose your insurance in thirty days. You're offered COBRA and find that the premiums are $900 or more a month for your coverage.

My plan at work cost $1,600/month and my employer pays the majority of it. If I am laid off and have to go through Cobra I would have to pay the full cost. Why is that a wrong? Should I expect a discount just because? Should I expect you to pay my employers share so that my costs don't change? Just because Obamacare plans are subsidized so the low income people don't bear the full cost doesn't mean they don't cost the same, or more, as before.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

the only benefit I see it the "pre-existing conditions" bit. let's be honest. if you're a guy married with two kids and you get laid off, you are still screwed with obamacare because it is going to be more than you can afford. you're going to be in the same boat you were before obamacare, unless you have pre-existing conditions.

I don't have a problem with coming up with a mechanism to deal with pre-existing conditions. I don't think you should be penalized simply for getting sick, many times you already are paying a big price just having the illness. I also don't have a problem of making those who do get a lifetime disease paying a little more for insurance, it's not like I caused you to get the illness so why should I pay for it, but the increase should be fair. Maybe a 5-10% premium.

 

[aberrant85]

Then why do you support Obamacare when more than 5% will still be without healthcare even if it is fully implemented?

Because I'm not an absolutist. If I offered you $95 would you not take it because it's not $100? That's what progress is: incremental steps towards a better society.

 

[aberrant85]

You seem unclear as to what insurance is. Basically you pay into a large pool which you are entitled to draw from as the covered need arises. You don't get to exhaust the pool or pull disproportionately from it.

As to caps on coverage, sounds like BS. Got any proof that there are no caps under Obamacare? That would bankrupt the system in a heartbeat.

I think I know what insurance is. Unfortunately, insurance has been misapplied to health care and is now pretty much inseparable from it in this country.

Other insurance works because it's based on catastrophe. Life insurance only pays out when you die or are disabled. Car insurance covers injuries, damage, and theft. Etc. They work because you don't use it until it's absolutely necessary, otherwise you're just paying in.

Health insurance, on the other hand, has basically colluded with hospitals and pharmaceutical companies. They put a huge markup on the cost of medical care, only to "discount it" through your insurance provider, making you feel like you got a deal. The costs have gone up so much that we have to use our insurance for basically any medical care, not just catastrophes. That's not how it should work, but that's what we got.

Which is why liberals prefer a single payer system, like Medicare, that can control costs. But that would have been impossible to pass due to resistance from the health industry and Republicans.

Therefore, Obamacare won't fix our system. But it does a lot more to ensure that there is equal availability of coverage for all.

 

[Greenbeard]

the only benefit I see it the "pre-existing conditions" bit. let's be honest. if you're a guy married with two kids and you get laid off, you are still screwed with obamacare because it is going to be more than you can afford. you're going to be in the same boat you were before obamacare, unless you have pre-existing conditions.

That's the point of offering financial assistance, scaled to income, for health insurance.

As to caps on coverage, sounds like BS. Got any proof that there are no caps under Obamacare? That would bankrupt the system in a heartbeat.

It's the law. 42 USC § 300gg–11 - No lifetime or annual limits.

 

[aberrant85]

wrong. I am a working american. I already have insurance. my premiums and taxes will go up because of Obamacare. in what way does that provide me "infinitely more" security than I have today?

and don't give me the "if you lose your job, you lose your insurance" crappola. If I lose my job...I'm not going to be able to afford obamacare either. so what benefit do I get?

I hate to rub it in, but this helps explain the difference between the states that have accepted Medicaid expansion and those that haven't:

Obamacare Medicaid Expansion: Blue States are more generous | New Republic

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Because I'm not an absolutist. If I offered you $95 would you not take it because it's not $100? That's what progress is: incremental steps towards a better society.

Is the $95 coming from you? I doubt it, it's probably coming from some else but you have no qualms about saying it coming from you and making it out to be a great idea.