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ObamaCare, Health Care Reform. WHY?

So, you too assume that the poor are spending $80 on cell phones, more on internet, and cigarettes. I'm going to give up arguing this point because people seem very set in their thinking that most of the poor are poor and uninsured because they waste their money. Geez, I don't even want to spend $80 a month on a cell phone plan and I have a comfortable income.

I am sorry if you think that I am attributing this behaviour of poor money management to ALL poor people. I'm not. But I can speak from personal experience and I can tell you that this type of mis-prioritization happens everyday. I live in an area with a predominantly poor population- just south of Atlanta. I love where I live, but I walk into the gas station to purchase gas, and I stand behind a line of lottery ticket buyers. Most of them pick up a pack of smokes and maybe a beer while they are there and use their food stamp card to buy candy and sodas. I KNOW that this type of behavior is a major problem- and I know that $80 phone plans among the poor are not uncommon. It is not hate speech or political bias. It is what I see in my community day in and day out. Not everybody- but a lot of people would have a lot more money and afford a lot more things if they would manage their money more wisely. I believe it is their right to spend their money on whatever they wish, but I also believe they should reap the consequences.
 
I am sorry if you think that I am attributing this behaviour of poor money management to ALL poor people. I'm not. But I can speak from personal experience and I can tell you that this type of mis-prioritization happens everyday. I live in an area with a predominantly poor population- just south of Atlanta. I love where I live, but I walk into the gas station to purchase gas, and I stand behind a line of lottery ticket buyers. Most of them pick up a pack of smokes and maybe a beer while they are there and use their food stamp card to buy candy and sodas. I KNOW that this type of behavior is a major problem- and I know that $80 phone plans among the poor are not uncommon. It is not hate speech or political bias. It is what I see in my community day in and day out. Not everybody- but a lot of people would have a lot more money and afford a lot more things if they would manage their money more wisely. I believe it is their right to spend their money on whatever they wish, but I also believe they should reap the consequences.

Although, I have a bigger problem with what you are saying, I'm going to nit pick here. Candy and Soda is cheaper than vegetables and health drinks. Therefore by buying those things, it is being more responsible with their money. This price difference also leads to health problems.

To my bigger problem, my friend's son has cystic fibrosis. He is 8. He does a treatment each morning and the machine used to do it cost $14,000. His medicines cost over $1000 a month. He typically spends a week in the hospital once a year. Thankfully he hasn't for the past 2 years. When he turns 26 if he doesn't have a job that offers benefits, he will not be able to be insured. Yes, it will cost the insurance companies more to cover him than it would for me but could you afford that much just for the medicines needed to keep you alive? Should we just let him die because he can't afford it. How dare he get an incurable disease at birth through genes right? Such a moocher! While we are at it his mother can't afford health insurance right now and when she finally could, she got denied because she recently had gall stones. Reason she didn't have health insurance? She switched jobs. She is a day care worker and cares for your children when you can't and they don't provide health insurance.

There are people that abuse the system but the majority do not. There are many problems in health care that need to be fixed but a start is to make sure everyone has basic coverage so I don't end up paying for people that can't anyways. What you aren't seeing is that costs are likely not to go up because we are already paying for those that get sick without insurance.
 
So, you too assume that the poor are spending $80 on cell phones, more on internet, and cigarettes. I'm going to give up arguing this point because people seem very set in their thinking that most of the poor are poor and uninsured because they waste their money. Geez, I don't even want to spend $80 a month on a cell phone plan and I have a comfortable income.

I would also be perfectly fine with offering a government-sponsored healthcare plan for low income people who qualify. This is more important to me than mandating everyone buy health insurance. Because, of course, to mandate this and not offer an alternative to what is on the market right now is really unjust. Still, if you're just interested in lowering the cost of healthcare, mandating everyone be insured is a good place to start.
I dont assume some are mis-using their assets to pay for crap...I know it. I work with those kind of folks on a regular basis. That being said...you obviously MISSED the part where I very clearly stated not ALL and that some form of healthcare for the poor is needed. You are the WORST kind of advocate. Instead of being honest about the problems you ram your head in even deeper thinking THAT will somehow make the problems go away.
 
Although, I have a bigger problem with what you are saying, I'm going to nit pick here. Candy and Soda is cheaper than vegetables and health drinks. Therefore by buying those things, it is being more responsible with their money. This price difference also leads to health problems.

To my bigger problem, my friend's son has cystic fibrosis. He is 8. He does a treatment each morning and the machine used to do it cost $14,000. His medicines cost over $1000 a month. He typically spends a week in the hospital once a year. Thankfully he hasn't for the past 2 years. When he turns 26 if he doesn't have a job that offers benefits, he will not be able to be insured. Yes, it will cost the insurance companies more to cover him than it would for me but could you afford that much just for the medicines needed to keep you alive? Should we just let him die because he can't afford it. How dare he get an incurable disease at birth through genes right? Such a moocher! While we are at it his mother can't afford health insurance right now and when she finally could, she got denied because she recently had gall stones. Reason she didn't have health insurance? She switched jobs. She is a day care worker and cares for your children when you can't and they don't provide health insurance.

There are people that abuse the system but the majority do not. There are many problems in health care that need to be fixed but a start is to make sure everyone has basic coverage so I don't end up paying for people that can't anyways. What you aren't seeing is that costs are likely not to go up because we are already paying for those that get sick without insurance.

Of course he shouldn't be allowed to die. It is irritating that the arguments always have, at their foundation, the assumption that there is a lack of compassion among non-liberals. Cystic Fibrosis is a debilitating disability. There is already a program in place that provides for the healthcare of disabled people under Medicare. This is a false argument. We are talking about whether anything NEW is needed, or whether Obamacare solves any of the healthcare problems we face in this country. My argument was that there are a significant number of people who are uninsured, yet have the money to insure themselves but choose not to. I never said this was the case for all. It is the case, though, for a lot of people. Argue that what I just said is not true....
 
My partner turns 26 this year and will no longer be able to stay on his mom's insurance. We did some research and were able to insure him for $99/month. Get this: this plan is a PPO so he can go to whichever doctor he wants without a referral, and it pays 100% of everything after the dedictible. No copay, no coinsurance, no "additional deductibles." We pay the premiums, and if something happens- we pay the deductible. This policy limits our out of pocket liability to $2,688 per year, which includes the premiums! We would never pay more than that, whether he broke a leg, needed stitches, or needed a heart transplant. For $99/month we were able to get this plan.

If you can buy coverage this good for less than $100/month, why is there a need for healthcare reform? We don't need a public option. Insurance is already affordable. Maybe what we need to do is counsel familes on how much value you get for $100 per month- and show them how to prioritize their expenses. Maybe they should get their Direct TV turned off and buy this insurance.

You are comparing a 26-year-old to a family with children?? Parents in their 30s or 40s.

That has to be the single most dimwitted comparison ever. You don't have a clue how the world (and health insurance) works.
 
They won't pay for it later. You and I will.

There happens to be a federally subsidized housing project just down the street from my house. We went over and counted the number of satellite dishes. Out of 160 something apartments, there were 94 satellite dishes. There is something wrong with that. My satellite bill is 86 dollars a month. I believe that the impoverished people who spend the little money they have wisely are the minority.

How many of those satellite dishes actually work though?
 
You are comparing a 26-year-old to a family with children?? Parents in their 30s or 40s.

That has to be the single most dimwitted comparison ever. You don't have a clue how the world (and health insurance) works.

I do know how health insurance works. And I never made any such comparison. If you knew how it worked, you would understand that forcing a health insurer to take on patients with pre-existing conditions was akin to calling up Allstate AFTER you wrecked your car- and asking them to insure the damages. No one will insure damages that have already occurred.

The difference between you and I is that you believe the moochers are the exception to the rule, whereas I believe that the people who can't afford health insurance through no fault of their own are the exception to the rule.
 
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I dont assume some are mis-using their assets to pay for crap...I know it. I work with those kind of folks on a regular basis. That being said...you obviously MISSED the part where I very clearly stated not ALL and that some form of healthcare for the poor is needed. You are the WORST kind of advocate. Instead of being honest about the problems you ram your head in even deeper thinking THAT will somehow make the problems go away.

Of course SOME people mismanage their money. I have already addressed this. I'm not denying that at all. I just think it's incredibly unhelpful for people like you to immediately want to talk only about how the stupid poor mismanage their money. It's arrogant and dismissive of the real problem. We are here to have a serious discussion about the real problems of health care. There are so many out there working so hard and still getting screwed by the system. See lovetosing's post. I think it is you who is ramming your head into the sand. "Most poor people are stupid and can't manage their money, so I'm not going to pay for their health insurance" Buck passed.
 
Of course SOME people mismanage their money. I have already addressed this. I'm not denying that at all. I just think it's incredibly unhelpful for people like you to immediately want to talk only about how the stupid poor mismanage their money. It's arrogant and dismissive of the real problem. We are here to have a serious discussion about the real problems of health care. There are so many out there working so hard and still getting screwed by the system. See lovetosing's post. I think it is you who is ramming your head into the sand. "Most poor people are stupid and can't manage their money, so I'm not going to pay for their health insurance" Buck passed.

I think that last sentence could be restructured to state that "If I am support a program to provide insurance for people who can't otherwise get it, I am going to require that some strings be attached to the spending of that money to ensure that only the people who 'can't otherwise get it' are able to take advantage of the program. You might be surprised to learn that if the circumstance were different- if the assistance were only provided to those who could demonstrate that either A) they have a pre-exisiting condition, and no insurer will issue a policy for them (regardless of income or assets) or B) that they were impoverished and absolutely can afford nothing more than their shelter, clothing, and food- then I think I would be willing to support a public option. That would mean everyone receiving assistance would have a case manager, and would have to prove that they did not have a cell phone bill, did not have a drinking problem, did not have Satellite television... If they can afford any of these things, then they can afford health insurance. Agreed?
 
I think that last sentence could be restructured to state that "If I am support a program to provide insurance for people who can't otherwise get it, I am going to require that some strings be attached to the spending of that money to ensure that only the people who 'can't otherwise get it' are able to take advantage of the program. You might be surprised to learn that if the circumstance were different- if the assistance were only provided to those who could demonstrate that either A) they have a pre-exisiting condition, and no insurer will issue a policy for them (regardless of income or assets) or B) that they were impoverished and absolutely can afford nothing more than their shelter, clothing, and food- then I think I would be willing to support a public option. That would mean everyone receiving assistance would have a case manager, and would have to prove that they did not have a cell phone bill, did not have a drinking problem, did not have Satellite television... If they can afford any of these things, then they can afford health insurance. Agreed?

Cell phone thing... you need a phone to get a job and keep a job nowadays and it can be cheap. I think having everyone have a case manager would end up costing more and be terribly inefficient. Obamacare helped people, including me and I would guess your partner as well, stay on their parents health insurance until they were 26 and will allow others to get health insurance with pre-existing conditions. These were both part of "Obamacare".

I do not think that non-liberals don't have a heart. I think YOU don't have a heart because you don't care about people. I am pretty heartless even because I believe the 30% or whatever that is spent in medicare in the last year of life should be done away with. You get a limit and then you find a way to pay for it or you die. I'm sorry. At 100, you don't need a $100,000 pacemaker to keep you alive another month. If we have a good chance of extending your life for 5 or 10 years then I'm all for it but not for another 6 months!

You think the MAJORITY of people are LAZY and IRRESPONSIBLE so they don't buy insurance. And so you think they should just die? I think you are GREATLY overestimating the amount of people that don't have health insurance. Just because you and your partner are lucky to have a good plan doesn't mean the rest of us can afford that. I am a student. If my parents were not helping me out I could not afford health insurance. I have friends that work full time and can barely afford a place to live and therefore cannot afford health care. Just because they are starting out. Insurance through the school is only $1200 a year and its a pretty good plan but I couldn't afford that working as a waiter or bus boy or heck maybe even with a full paid internship. I can't imagine the people working at McDonald's part time even being able to buy things. People deserve to be happy as well as not have to file BANKRUPTCY if they need a small surgery.


[Ugh! Long day. Sorry if this makes no sense. I'll try fix it later if I can otherwise good luck.]
 
Cell phone thing... you need a phone to get a job and keep a job nowadays and it can be cheap. I think having everyone have a case manager would end up costing more and be terribly inefficient. Obamacare helped people, including me and I would guess your partner as well, stay on their parents health insurance until they were 26 and will allow others to get health insurance with pre-existing conditions. These were both part of "Obamacare".

I do not think that non-liberals don't have a heart. I think YOU don't have a heart because you don't care about people. I am pretty heartless even because I believe the 30% or whatever that is spent in medicare in the last year of life should be done away with. You get a limit and then you find a way to pay for it or you die. I'm sorry. At 100, you don't need a $100,000 pacemaker to keep you alive another month. If we have a good chance of extending your life for 5 or 10 years then I'm all for it but not for another 6 months!

You think the MAJORITY of people are LAZY and IRRESPONSIBLE so they don't buy insurance. And so you think they should just die? I think you are GREATLY overestimating the amount of people that don't have health insurance. Just because you and your partner are lucky to have a good plan doesn't mean the rest of us can afford that. I am a student. If my parents were not helping me out I could not afford health insurance. I have friends that work full time and can barely afford a place to live and therefore cannot afford health care. Just because they are starting out. Insurance through the school is only $1200 a year and its a pretty good plan but I couldn't afford that working as a waiter or bus boy or heck maybe even with a full paid internship. I can't imagine the people working at McDonald's part time even being able to buy things. People deserve to be happy as well as not have to file BANKRUPTCY if they need a small surgery.

More hyperbole and exaggeration. You must have only read the last page of the thread. There are already safeguards to ensure that anyone can go to the emergency room and get treatment for free if they are indigent. I listed those laws from 1985 earlier in this thread. Even if you get cancer, you are required to be treated until you can qualify for disability and then Medicare covers your treatment. Obamacare is not the solution. That is the point. People already have access to hospitals and care. I could be reformed by repealing those other laws and implement something else, as I also discussed earlier in the thread.

And I will concede and allow the people to have a cell phone and still get my public option. Not an iphone though. And no internet and media package on the phone. :)
 
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More hyperbole and exaggeration. You must have only read the last page of the thread. There are already safeguards to ensure that anyone can go to the emergency room and get treatment for free if they are indigent. I listed those laws from 1985 earlier in this thread. Even if you get cancer, you are required to be treated until you can qualify for disability and then Medicare covers your treatment. Obamacare is not the solution. That is the point. People already have access to hospitals and care. I could be reformed by repealing those other laws and implement something else, as I also discussed earlier in the thread.

And I will concede and allow the people to have a cell phone and still get my public option. Not an iphone though. And no internet and media package on the phone. :)

I read the entire thread. You want to get rid of those safeguards as you once again say here. Please then tell me what you would replace obamacare with if you repealed the other laws. I can't wait!
 
I read the entire thread. You want to get rid of those safeguards as you once again say here. Please then tell me what you would replace obamacare with if you repealed the other laws. I can't wait!

I answered that question earlier in the thread that you read the entirety of. :) I copied and pasted it below.

I'll give you one solution: Repeal Obamacare and the IHCTA of 1985- then create a program that will cover the deductibles for people who genuinely can not afford to pay them, but have taken the important step of limiting the taxpayer's liability by having the insurance policy in the first place. Thirdly, implement a public option only for those people who can not get coverage AT ALL because of prexisting conditions. Health care costs would be lower, the base of people needing the government's assistance in their healthcare would be lower, and the cost per taxpayer that the government spends on health care would be less than half what it is today. Just one solution.
 
I answered that question earlier in the thread that you read the entirety of. :) I copied and pasted it below.

Sorry I don't remember everything I read yesterday. My bad... What about people that cannot afford to cover the premiums? You cover people who cannot get it because of pre-existing conditions but not those that cannot afford it. Also, you've said several times that it is stupid to cover people with pre-existing conditions but now you are for it?

Cost is still going to be outrageous because when people go to the doctor they just see the $15 copay. Not the $100 that goes to pay the doctor so they go for everything. Along with other problems. Just curious: What do you think would happen if we got rid of insurance all together? Prices would have to come down because otherwise no one will be able to afford anything. (I am not advocating for this. I just want to know what people think will happen?)
 
Sorry I don't remember everything I read yesterday. My bad... What about people that cannot afford to cover the premiums? You cover people who cannot get it because of pre-existing conditions but not those that cannot afford it. Also, you've said several times that it is stupid to cover people with pre-existing conditions but now you are for it?

Cost is still going to be outrageous because when people go to the doctor they just see the $15 copay. Not the $100 that goes to pay the doctor so they go for everything. Along with other problems. Just curious: What do you think would happen if we got rid of insurance all together? Prices would have to come down because otherwise no one will be able to afford anything. (I am not advocating for this. I just want to know what people think will happen?)

Actually several studies have shown us, most notably RAND HIE, even modest co-pay/co-insurance is enough to begin an reduce utilization. Whilst we want to discourage the so called 'moral hazards' we also want to make sure that don't stop seeing physicians for financial reasons.

Kamikaze: how will your plan lower healthcare costs? Also why should a public option be available to those who can't get private coverage?
I would love to see your reasoning behind these two questions
 
Sorry I don't remember everything I read yesterday. My bad... What about people that cannot afford to cover the premiums? You cover people who cannot get it because of pre-existing conditions but not those that cannot afford it. Also, you've said several times that it is stupid to cover people with pre-existing conditions but now you are for it?

Cost is still going to be outrageous because when people go to the doctor they just see the $15 copay. Not the $100 that goes to pay the doctor so they go for everything. Along with other problems. Just curious: What do you think would happen if we got rid of insurance all together? Prices would have to come down because otherwise no one will be able to afford anything. (I am not advocating for this. I just want to know what people think will happen?)

Those are pretty good questions, I think. As far as people being able to afford the premiums, I have seen high deductible plans with pretty low premiums. If lower income people didn't have to be so concerned about meeting the deductible, the premiums would not be such a hardship. Sure, there are people with no income, or with incomes so low that they legitamately could not pay the premiums regularly enough to maintain the insurance. But I believe these are the exceptions to the rule, once you start looking at each person individually and determining WHY they are so impoverished. For those who are disabled or over 65, there is already a system for that. Medicare. I would be for extending that benefit also to people with pre-existing conditions that prohibit them from private coverage. That way, it truly is a public option, paid for by CMS, rather than burdening private insurers and causing across the board premium increases for healthy people due to the increased costs of having to insure the uninsurable.

As far as your comment regarding overutilization of healthcare services due to low copays- this would not be burdensome. This is how insurance works. The insurance companies would get their monthly premiums for each covered person, and would pay everything but the copay and co-insurance (if any- and it would be preferable for a lower income person to choose a higher deductible plan with limited or no co-insurance). The taxpayers would pay for the deductible, but that limits the taxpayer's costs to a maximum of 10-12k per capita per year, and that only for those people under the "deductible assistance" program. (Again, that would be no one over 65, and no one who is disabled- because there are other programs that take care of those people, and no one who has enough money to afford better insurance. So the pool of eligible people would be really small.)

The way we would fund this would be to take what the money currently allocated for Medicaid (which is a federal/state match) and reallocate it to the new program. Doing it this way, no one would be uninsured, and the private insurance companies would be taking care of most of the big bills- everything but the deductibles and the people with pre-existing conditions.

As far as eliminating insurance, you have to remember that enterprise and pricing are based on supply and demand. The demand would not go down, because people will always need the health care services- it would actually go up, as I'll explain in a minute. Supply would go down- meaning lots of people needing care, and not enough people providing it.

The big deal is the research. Coming up with state of the art equipment and innovative medications is extremely expensive, and those cost are built in to the price consumers and insurers pay at point of service. When a hospital buys a new MRI machine for millions of dollars, they are going to charge a lot of money for each MRI procedure in order to cover the costs and turn a profit.

What would happen is that costs would remain at current levels at first, and people would still utilize the services- but they wouldn't be doing the preventative care, so when they did end up having to go to the hospital, the costs would be even higher. They wouldn't be able to pay it, so they would be in debt to the hospital- who would be required to provide the service anyway under federal law. When hundreds of thousands defaulted on their debts to the hospital, the hospitals would start to go under, meaning decreasing supply and decreasing access to health care services. As the hospitals went under, they would default on their debt to their vendors, who would default on the equipment and pharmaceutical manufactures, who would default on the R&D companies, preventing them from funding cutting edge research and design.

Increased demand and decreased supply results in increased cost to the consumer. That is just the way things work. Getting rid of insurance without having something to replace it would completely destroy our system of healthcare.

Kamikaze: how will your plan lower healthcare costs? Also why should a public option be available to those who can't get private coverage?
I would love to see your reasoning behind these two questions

The reduction in healthcare costs would be twofold. There would be a reduction in terms of actual treatment costs as well as healthcare cost savings to taxpayers.

By making sure everyone has some type of insurance, there would be no need for the Indigent Health Care and Treatment Act. Right now, uninsured people who get sick go to the hospital. The hospital treats them as required by law. But the hospital doesn't get paid. So those losses are passed on to consumers and insurers in the form of increased costs for services. These embedded costs to the providers would disappear because everyone would have the opportunity to have insurance. This would cause not only the eventual (within a year or two) reduction in costs, but it would increase supply of health care services. The services would be more profitable, the healthcare marketplace would become even more competitive, and increased supply, without an increase in demand, results in lower prices.

Secondly, it would save taxpayer money- simply because the government would be paying less money for less people. The taxpayer's bet would be hedged because most people would have private health plans.

Secondly, the only reason the public option would be made availabe is to SAVE taxpayer money. It would be a way to limit the taxpayer's burden per capita by having everyone insured. That way, private insurance markets handle the bulk of the risk. But they are in the risk business, whereas the federal government is not- or at least it shouldn't be. And that public option would replace the following:

A) Obamacare
B) Medicaid
C) The Indigent Health Care and Treatment Act of 1985
D) The Emergency Medical Treatment Act of 1985

The total cost savings to taxpayers would be unbelieveable and it would go a long way toward the solving the high health care cost problem. The catch it this: no one would be required to participate in any program. But the programs would be available to everyone. So if people chose not to participate and did not have health insurance of any kind, hospitals would not be required to provide them with services. It places some onus on individual responsibility, while at the same time helping those who can't get insurance or can't afford it.

Then the only battle we'd be fighting is how to reform Medicare to make it sustainable- but then again we would have all this extra money. :)
 
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Medical Tourists:United States

A McKinsey and Co. report from 2008 found that a plurality of an estimated 60,000 to 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care; the same McKinsey study estimated that 750,000 American medical tourists traveled from the United States to other countries in 2007 (up from 500,000 in 2006) ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism
The fact that there are 10 American "medical tourists" travelling to other countries for every foreign "medical tourists" coming to the US, speaks volumes to the fact that there something drastically wrong with the healthcare in America.

American "medical tourists" patients can save from 30 to 60% on their health costs just by coming to Canada.
 
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If you intend to have significantly more than $6200 in medical bills, this might be a good idea.
But for a healthy 26yr old, I am not sure that a $5000 deductible is all that useful. ymmv



View attachment 67118466

It's very useful.

We can't buy insurance to save money. It's mathmatically impossible. Thats a big part of what is wrong with our healthcare system. People think that they have to have insurance to recieve medical care, and they think that they need low deductables and copays to "save money". Doesn't work like that. Insurance simply isn't a money saving thing, it's an expense.

I've never been able to figure out why people will insist that they saved $100 on a doctor bill due to insurance, when the reality is that they paid $600/mth for that insurance that "saved them" $100. When I do the math, all they did was to pay the insurance company $600 to right a $100 check.

We all know that we will need healthcare from time to time, just the same way we need gasoline, and groceries. We don't purchase gasoline insurance or food insurance because that would be ludicris, much the same way that low deductable insurance is ludicris for health care.

The purpose of insurance is not to save money, it is to financially protect us against risk that we can't afford to take. If a 26 year old has car accident and a $100,000 medical bill, that insurance will prove to be very worthwhile.

Whether the cost of a high deductable plan is $98/mth or $225/mth, it's a bargain compared to the cost of insurance that most people have. The OP is absolutely correct that most people overpay for insurance. The "why" is because most people are vastly overinsured and have been suckered into purchasing something that is far more expensive than what they really need.

For less than what our gov already spends on health care, the gov could purchase a group major medical policy for every single American from private insurance companies.
 
...Prices would have to come down because otherwise no one will be able to afford anything. (I am not advocating for this. I just want to know what people think will happen?)

Exactly.

And I DO advocate this, or at least a twist on this. If everyone dropped their prepaid healthcare plans (HMO's, PPO's, etc) that had low copays, and low deductables, healthcare would indeed become much cheaper. Patients would start shopping for the lowest price (like I do), and health care facilities would be forced to compete based on price and quality, just like every other industry does.

This doesn't mean a lower standard of care, it means more efficient management. Products are better in quality today than they were 30 years ago because when we bother to price shop, we also value shop, which means that we are shopping for the best product per $ spent. So manufacturers have to not only operate efficiently, they also have to produce a quality product and innovate. Thats why capitalism works so well, when we allow it to.


Eleminating what we now think of as "good" insurance would result in the following:

So that $115 doctor bill drops to $65, the patient saves $500-$1000 a month on insurance, the patient then has more money to save and invest, or to spend on preventative care, so when the major medical bills come around, the patient has the bucks to pay for the care.

Imagine a typical family dropping their "good" coverage for a high deductable major medical policy. They could easily put $500/mth into their HSA, in 10 years they could have $60,000+ in the HSA.
 
Actually several studies have shown us, most notably RAND HIE, even modest co-pay/co-insurance is enough to begin an reduce utilization. Whilst we want to discourage the so called 'moral hazards' we also want to make sure that don't stop seeing physicians for financial reasons.

Likewise, I would think a reduction in health care costs would tend to incourage people to have preventative care, especially if they had to be responsible for a larger portion of major medical bills (and thus strive harder to avoid major medical bills). Health care costs are jacked up DUE to insurance.

Kamikaze: how will your plan lower healthcare costs? Also why should a public option be available to those who can't get private coverage?
I would love to see your reasoning behind these two questions

I think that since not everyone can get private coverage, the gov should purchase a large group major medical plan from private insurance companies for EVERY CITIZEN. This could be done for less than what our gov already spends on healthcare ($1.2 trillion a year). It's a benefit, just like roads and military, and a benefit that would benefit everyone (thus it is fair).
 
If everyone dropped their prepaid healthcare plans (HMO's, PPO's, etc) that had low copays, and low deductables, healthcare would indeed become much cheaper.

Is that one of those things that "If everyone did THIS, it would fix everything" kinda arguments? Maybe I'm a little confused on your wording but if that is what your saying that people are going to drop their prepaid health care plans, as a solution, i can't see that happening.
 
Shouldn't we have a drop off point, where if you have the cash, without any impact on your way of life for the most part, you should pay for your insurance. or simply, if you have really high income, you pay for everything, if you have moderate high income, you pay for most everything, if you have moderate income, you pay for about half maybe, and if you have low income you pay for very little, and if you have very very low income, you just get covered....man, look at the broad brush i used for that one...but thats kinda along the lines of what im thinking here.
 
Shouldn't we have a drop off point, where if you have the cash, without any impact on your way of life for the most part, you should pay for your insurance. or simply, if you have really high income, you pay for everything, if you have moderate high income, you pay for most everything, if you have moderate income, you pay for about half maybe, and if you have low income you pay for very little, and if you have very very low income, you just get covered....man, look at the broad brush i used for that one...but thats kinda along the lines of what im thinking here.

The lines along which you think appear to leave a lot of health care unfunded. What do you mean "if you have really high income, you pay for everything?"
 
Shouldn't we have a drop off point, where if you have the cash, without any impact on your way of life for the most part, you should pay for your insurance. or simply, if you have really high income, you pay for everything, if you have moderate high income, you pay for most everything, if you have moderate income, you pay for about half maybe, and if you have low income you pay for very little, and if you have very very low income, you just get covered....man, look at the broad brush i used for that one...but thats kinda along the lines of what im thinking here.

Isn't that the point of the tax system. We already have a progressive tax system, should we also have a progressive healthcare system?
 
My partner turns 26 this year and will no longer be able to stay on his mom's insurance. We did some research and were able to insure him for $99/month. Get this: this plan is a PPO so he can go to whichever doctor he wants without a referral, and it pays 100% of everything after the dedictible. No copay, no coinsurance, no "additional deductibles." We pay the premiums, and if something happens- we pay the deductible. This policy limits our out of pocket liability to $2,688 per year, which includes the premiums! We would never pay more than that, whether he broke a leg, needed stitches, or needed a heart transplant. For $99/month we were able to get this plan.

If you can buy coverage this good for less than $100/month, why is there a need for healthcare reform? We don't need a public option. Insurance is already affordable. Maybe what we need to do is counsel familes on how much value you get for $100 per month- and show them how to prioritize their expenses. Maybe they should get their Direct TV turned off and buy this insurance.
I can't believe I missed this. HDhPs also suffer from adverse selection. They only attract the healthy, I.e people who know that there expenditure will be low most years and prepared to risk a larger liability. People with chronic conditions will stay away from these plans because they know their expenditure will be higher. HDHPs are great if you are healthy but not so good if you have a chronic condition. Although they do have a positive effect from in that they reduce utilization but also preventative services. Therefore I believe that although they are a handy tool, they are largely unsuitable for widespread rollout, not without Gov intervention.
 
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