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Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’[W:137]

Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

Provide me with a list of violent, pot-fueled crimes. Let me help you with your answer - they don't happen. Now lets talk about alcohol. There's a huge difference and for you to say one is just as bad as the other shows your ignorance on the subject.
I would rather deal with a pot smoker than a drunk, if i was a cop.
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

Im definitely arguing from the POV of the freedom argument.

Arguing that pot should be treated like cigarettes and alcohol is arguing from the freedom perspective? Ummmmm....no.
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

Should we abolish traffic laws because some people choose to speed anyway?

They're like any other laws - you weight the costs and benefits and decide if enforcing speed limits accomplishes a public benefit at an acceptable cost.

If addictive drugs are legal they will be more available to children who is who the drug pushers will target after they lose the parents as customers

I didn't smoke pot in HS but I knew where to get it and could do so easily, more than 35 years ago. So we've spent decades, $hundreds of billions fighting the War on Pot, putting cumulatively millions of dealers and users in jail, and what have we accomplished, for the children of course? I'm confident nearly any socially engaged HS kid can get pot with a phone call or two, in just about every city in the U.S., and the drug is dirt cheap and much more powerful than in my era.

What do you hope to accomplish continuing this War on Drugs? I'm sure local police and the companies selling them hardware, helicopters in my area to search for illegal fields, the private prison industry, are all excited about keeping this perpetual war on drugs going, but I can't see why anyone not directly benefiting from it wants to. It's failed.
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

He also compared it to cigs.

Big freaking difference

Try watching your workers compensation rates go up because some stoner decided to drop a 12' x 4' x 5/8" piece of sheetrock 2 stories like I have.

That's not quite fair - he wasn't at all making the argument smoking a cigarette is no different than a joint. Come on....

From the OP, his actual words:

Look, I’ve been very clear about my belief that we should try to discourage substance abuse. And I am not somebody who believes that legalization is a panacea. But I do believe that treating this as a public-health issue, the same way we do with cigarettes or alcohol, is the much smarter way to deal with it.
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

They're like any other laws - you weight the costs and benefits and decide if enforcing speed limits accomplishes a public benefit at an acceptable cost.



I didn't smoke pot in HS but I knew where to get it and could do so easily, more than 35 years ago. So we've spent decades, $hundreds of billions fighting the War on Pot, putting cumulatively millions of dealers and users in jail, and what have we accomplished, for the children of course? I'm confident nearly any socially engaged HS kid can get pot with a phone call or two, in just about every city in the U.S., and the drug is dirt cheap and much more powerful than in my era.

What do you hope to accomplish continuing this War on Drugs? I'm sure local police and the companies selling them hardware, helicopters in my area to search for illegal fields, the private prison industry, are all excited about keeping this perpetual war on drugs going, but I can't see why anyone not directly benefiting from it wants to. It's failed.

When you say "war on drugs" you are talking about more than Cheech and Chong smoking pot and making us laugh with their funny skits.

Heroin is not funny and neither is crack cocaine.

Or regular cocaine for that matter.
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

That's not quite fair - he wasn't at all making the argument smoking a cigarette is no different than a joint. Come on....

From the OP, his actual words:

I am for legalizing pot by the way.

I think it's a BS law for the most part.

But.... Don't want it anywheres near my job sites.
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

I'm curious what you think Obama should have done.

Work to dismantle and cut funding to the DEA and prison contractors, pardon ALL harmless drug users, and gone on a campaign to rid us of these barbaric laws. Maybe even get high himself on tv, you know, invest in the cause

Notice that since weed became legal in colorado, overall arrests have plummeted
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

When you say "war on drugs" you are talking about more than Cheech and Chong smoking pot and making us laugh with their funny skits.

Heroin is not funny and neither is crack cocaine.

Or regular cocaine for that matter.

Right, I'm talking about a decades long and failed effort, costing $100s of billions, millions jailed, to fight some drugs we've made "illegal."

And obviously recognizing the War on Drugs has failed doesn't mean anyone thinks drugs are good, or funny. Drug addiction is a serious public health issue and should be treated as a public health issue like alcoholism, instead of IMO as a primarily criminal problem.
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

Right, I'm talking about a decades long and failed effort, costing $100s of billions, millions jailed, to fight some drugs we've made "illegal."

And obviously recognizing the War on Drugs has failed doesn't mean anyone thinks drugs are good, or funny. Drug addiction is a serious public health issue and should be treated as a public health issue like alcoholism, instead of IMO as a primarily criminal problem.

alcoholism is nothing compared to hard drug addiction

Many people in America think that history began when we were born

But it didn't

And many of those pushing for legalization think that straight-laced party poopers just don't want to let druggies have fun

But thats not true either

Hard drugs were legal in America and around the world before any of us were born and they proved to be uncontrollable by society so they were banned
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

I am for legalizing pot by the way.

I think it's a BS law for the most part.

But.... Don't want it anywheres near my job sites.

Of course not, like you don't want drunks on your job sites.
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

I have guys who smoke cigs on the job as long as it is outside, and I smoke also.

I have had guys reeking of "pot" or "alcohol" coming back from lunch and they got fired immediately. I am not going to be liable for some azzhole falling off a scaffold, or dropping tools from 30 feet onto someone's head.

Cigs and pot are not the same Mr. Obama.

It depends on how you're keeping score. While tobacco isn't as intoxicating as the other drugs you mention, it's far more lethal than all other drugs combined, long-term. Even if you roll in all the deaths related to drug crime, I believe tobacco still has it beat handily.

Do you doubt if they tried to outlaw tobacco that underground markets and related crime would skyrocket? Never mind what it would do to prices!

Instead we've managed to reduce tobacco consumption significantly in the last few decades with a combination of education, regulation, and sin taxes.

There's no good reason the same type of policies won't work with marijuana.

I'm all for not allowing intoxicated people to work dangerous jobs, whatever the drug. I don't think anyone thinks that's a good idea.
 
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Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

Hard drugs were legal in America and around the world before any of us were born and they proved to be uncontrollable by society so they were banned

Could you source us for that claim? Surely the public outcry when drug addicts were running wild across our nation generated movements with notable leaders?
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

Could you source us for that claim? Surely the public outcry when drug addicts were running wild across our nation generated movements with notable leaders?

No I cannot give you a K-16 education on the internet

You are on your own there
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

No I cannot give you a K-16 education on the internet

You are on your own there

Wow. You seem so convinced, I thought you'd make an effort.

In that case, I'll apply my own knowledge that apart from the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906 all drug regulation, especially at the federal level, was driven by politics and fear mongering, rather than any effort to combat an actual problem.

That's demonstrable history, friend. It's not hard to look up. Even as recent administrations were continuing that game, with Nixon's top aides have confirming his drug policies were all about attacking his political enemies.
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

Wow. You seem so convinced, I thought you'd make an effort.

In that case, I'll apply my own knowledge that apart from the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906 all drug regulation, especially at the federal level, was driven by politics and fear mongering, rather than any effort to combat an actual problem.

That's demonstrable history, friend. It's not hard to look up. Even as recent administrations were continuing that game, with Nixon's top aides have confirming his drug policies were all about attacking his political enemies.

Why waste my time?

I just give you my opinion knowing you will ignore it anyway
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

Wow. You seem so convinced, I thought you'd make an effort.

In that case, I'll apply my own knowledge that apart from the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906 all drug regulation, especially at the federal level, was driven by politics and fear mongering, rather than any effort to combat an actual problem.

That's demonstrable history, friend. It's not hard to look up. Even as recent administrations were continuing that game, with Nixon's top aides have confirming his drug policies were all about attacking his political enemies.

That is just your modern perspective on a situation you did not live through personally

because practically every nation in the world came to the same conclusion that Americans did about dangerous addictive drugs
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

Why waste my time?

I just give you my opinion knowing you will ignore it anyway

Nothing wrong with opinions. You made a inaccurate claim of fact.

I'll challenge that every time I see it.
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

That is just your modern perspective on a situation you did not live through personally

because practically every nation in the world came to the same conclusion that Americans did about dangerous addictive drugs

That is just your modern perspective on a situation you did not live through personally.

If you'd bothered to study the way that came about, you'd already know that the U.S. browbeat those nations into signing onto those treaties.
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

That is just your modern perspective on a situation you did not live through personally.

If you'd bothered to study the way that came about, you'd already know that the U.S. browbeat those nations into signing onto those treaties.

Bull****

Do you know the story of opium and china?

dangerous drugs were banned around the world long before America became the most powerful nation on earth and in a position to browbeat anyone
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

alcoholism is nothing compared to hard drug addiction

That's not actually true at all. I'm sober 10 years, but volunteer for a group that takes in alcoholics and "drug" addicts. Addiction to any intoxicant is devastating to the person and those around him or her. It's a quicker ride to the bottom with some drugs, like meth and opiates, but once there not a lot of difference really.

Many people in America think that history began when we were born

But it didn't

And many of those pushing for legalization think that straight-laced party poopers just don't want to let druggies have fun

But thats not true either

I agree, and it's also not true those of us for significant decriminalization at least are pro-drug or thing drug use is just fine. It's terrible - ruins lives, etc.

Hard drugs were legal in America and around the world before any of us were born and they proved to be uncontrollable by society so they were banned

That's at least in large part just false. Where is the evidence pot was any more "uncontrollable by society" than alcohol? It doesn't exist - a bunch of made up lies exist about how bad pot was, but it was made up. Famously, cocaine used to be added to Coca Cola. You can buy coca (cocaine) tea all over S. America, it's served in the nicest hotels like coffee - drinking it is like drinking a weak tea. I drank a lot of it this past year in Peru for altitude sickness - never got the slightest high. Coca leaves are chewed like tobacco there. No problems with that.

Heroin? 20% of Vietnam vets were addicts before coming home, but 95% of those quit and didn't relapse once home. Sure, there are a few hard core heroin addicts and it's devastating, but it's illegal today, and heroin/opiate addiction rates and related deaths are skyrocketing, mostly due to overuse of PRESCRIBED pain killers.
 
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That's at least in large part just false. Where is the evidence pot was any more "uncontrollable by society" than alcohol? It doesn't exist - a bunch of made up lies exist about how bad pot was, but it was made up. Famously, cocaine used to be added to Coca Cola. You can buy coca (cocaine) tea all over S. America, it's served in the nicest hotels like coffee - drinking it is like drinking a weak tea. I drank a lot of it this past year in Peru for altitude sickness - never got the slightest high. Coca leaves are chewed like tobacco there. No problems with that.

Heroin? 20% of Vietnam vets were addicts before coming home, but 95% of those quit and didn't relapse once home. Sure, there are a few hard core heroin addicts and it's devastating, but it's illegal today, and heroin/opiate addiction rates and related deaths are skyrocketing, mostly due to overuse of PRESCRIBED pain killers.

Some of your examples make my case for me

Coca Cola used to contain cocaine

And it did indeed make people addicted and ruin their lives

So it was societies hands on experience with drugs that led outlawing the drugs

Viet vets did use heroin in Vietnam where it was readily available

But back home herion while available was not acceptable or legal and that certainly influenced many men to kick the habit
 
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Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

Bull****

Do you know the story of opium and china?

dangerous drugs were banned around the world long before America became the most powerful nation on earth and in a position to browbeat anyone

That's a perfect example of how attempts to prohibit make the situation worse.

Importation only increased when China tried to make it illegal, and no doubt prices and crime rose as well.

Sound familiar at all?

In that case, the British and French faught wars with China to re-legalize the opium trade, and it lead to the end of the the Chinese dynasties.

Is your point that we need to stop pushing irrational drug policy before the government collapses?
 
Re: Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’

That's a perfect example of how attempts to prohibit make the situation worse.

Importation only increased when China tried to make it illegal, and no doubt prices and crime rose as well.

Sound familiar at all?

In that case, the British and French faught wars with China to re-legalize the opium trade, and it lead to the end of the the Chinese dynasties.

Is your point that we need to stop pushing irrational drug policy before the government collapses?

not true

as more chinese got hooked on opium demand increased and so did importation

The chinese government tried to stop it but the european powers - Britain - were militarily stronger that china and the won the Opium Wars
 
Some of your examples make my case for me

Coca Cola used to contain cocaine

And it did indeed make people addicted and ruin their lives

That's not the real story. Lots of articles but here's one: https://www.thenation.com/article/how-myth-negro-cocaine-fiend-helped-shape-american-drug-policy/

 The author, a distinguished physician, wrote: “[The Negro fiend] imagines that he hears people taunting and abusing him, and this often incites homicidal attacks upon innocent and unsuspecting victims.” And he continued, “the deadly accuracy of the cocaine user has become axiomatic in Southern police circles…. the record of the ‘cocaine nigger’ near Asheville who dropped five men dead in their tracks using only one cartridge for each, offers evidence that is sufficiently convincing.”

Cocaine, in other words, made black men uniquely murderous and better marksmen. But that wasn’t all. It also produced “a resistance to the ‘knock down’ effects of fatal wounds. Bullets fired into vital parts that would drop a sane man in his tracks, fail to check the ‘fiend.’”
...
By 1914, however, the law’s proponents had found an important ally in their quest to get it passed: the mythical “negro cocaine fiend,” which prominent newspapers, physicians and politicians readily exploited. Indeed, at congressional hearings, “experts” testified that “most of the attacks upon white women of the South are the direct result of a cocaine-crazed Negro brain.”

Does that sound like a scientifically based argument to you, carefully weighing the pros and cons of prohibition of cocaine?

So it was societies hands on experience with drugs that led outlawing the drugs

Its vets did use Berlin in Vietnam where it was readily available

But back home herion while available was not acceptable or legal and that certainly influenced many men to kick the habit

Let's say that's true - what has the decades long War on Drugs accomplished other than helping the U.S. be #1 in the WORLD!!! with number of jailed/imprisoned and prisoners per capita?
 
That's not the real story. Lots of articles but here's one: https://www.thenation.com/article/how-myth-negro-cocaine-fiend-helped-shape-american-drug-policy/



Does that sound like a scientifically based argument to you, carefully weighing the pros and cons of prohibition of cocaine?

Is that the only opinion on the subject from that era?

I concede that whites were overtly concerned with race and skin color then just as blacks and guilt-ridden white liberals are today

So if you wanted to win a debate playing the race card then worked just as well then as it does in reverse today.
 
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