Not "The Onion": The UK and Knife Control

[ecofarm]

If you're going to make fun of us, do it over something like Brexit, which is a farce of our own making, not some stupid made-up story.

No. I'm gonna make fun of Brits over a made up story. Buncha spork wielding limeys.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Some people are not only incapable of reading what they present, they even insist on their lack of reading comprehension constituting the truly factual interpretation.

I really think some of these posters read the heading, assume the content supports them and then proudly present that as evidence their "theory" is correct.

The Gov website article supporting a knife ban is hilarious and only supports what I said in my first post on this thread.

 

[HonestJoe]

I have no position on gun control in the UK.

Knife control is absurd, even in the midst of an epidemic of stabbings.

I fail to see the difference. They’re both legitimate tools which can be misused in potentially deadly ways and that justifies some level of restriction and management to seek to minimise those risks. The only (albeit difficult) questions is how and to what extent that should be done.

The "single private individual" is the chairman of the Royal College of Psychiatrists.

In other words not a politician (certainly not politicians) and not calling for a ban on knives.

Reuters (ibid.) also tells us: "Britain’s interior ministry said it was consulting on new laws to further restrict dangerous weapons, including banning online stores from delivering knives to residential addresses and making it an offence to possess certain weapons in public."

”Consulting on” typically means a government has no intention of doing anything but doesn’t want to admit that to the media. There are restrictions on the purchase and possession of knives in the UK, some long established and some more recent. There will be a wide range of opinion on the matter across politics (indeed, across the population) but again, absolutely nobody has called for a ban on knives.

The headline is admittedly overkill.

It’s not “overkill”, it was an outright lie. Such headlines are all too common and are indefensible. If you’re going to defend the media lying, I don’t see the point in discussing anything with you.

I'll tell you what: You go on record right here, right now, claiming that the knife bans currently affecting London won't be in effect UK-wide within 5 years; I'll go on record predicting they will. If we're both here five years from now, we'll see who eats crow? Fair enough?

There are no London-specific “knife bans”. The law is the same across England and Wales. The practical application of the law by different police forces across the country will vary depending on their circumstances with it clearly being a more immediate issue in London and a couple of other big cities than elsewhere. It all boils down to the fact this whole article was trying to lie about though, there is a world of difference between trying to stop young gang members carrying weapons and banning all knives.

I’m not in favour of widespread knife restrictions myself and think some of the laws and certainly some of the proposals are excessive and unnecessary. My only point here is to address the generic misrepresentation of the facts by scummy sub-media for the purpose of spinning up division to make money.

 

[Crovax]

The homicide rates are not as bad in many States though. List of U.S. states by homicide rate - Wikipedia

New Hampshire is safer than the UK. lol

Yes it’s almost funny how when you take states that are wealthy and upwards of 90% white just like the U.K. is then the homicide rates look similar. It’s like gun laws have zero correlation to murder rates :shrug:

 

[Sweden]

No. I'm gonna make fun of Brits over a made up story. Buncha spork wielding limeys.

I do not intend to make fun of Yanks as one should not mock the afflicted.

 

[Chagos]

Welcome to liberal "debate" tactics. They are better than everyone else and boy do the know it!

What any of this has to do with "liberal" remains alone your guess but if you're going to gripe about foolishness being treated with disdain, DO carry on and be counted in.:roll:

 

[Chagos]

I do not intend to make fun of Yanks as one should not mock the afflicted.

There does seem to be an abundance of evidence supporting that stupidity is a national issue in this case. But I totally agree in the sense that DP (or any other media where fools are allowed to prattle) should not be seen as the yard-stick.:lol:

 

[COTO]

Article: politicians want to ban kitchen knives, so people will have to use a spoon to cut a steak (who uses a kitchen knife to cut their steak anyway?)

Reality: one doctor has suggested kitchen knives be redesigned to not have a pointed end. Not a single politian has agreed with him.

Again, this "one doctor" holds one of the most esteemed and influential medical offices in the UK, and I highly doubt he's alone in his folly. The "spoon to cut a steak" is satire.

Unlike London-style bans extending nation-wide, I do consider the prospect of pointed kitchen knife bans going into effect remote. Even so, it's an embarrassment that the chair of your nation's preeminent psychiatric association is going on record with the suggestion.

I fail to see the difference. They’re both legitimate tools which can be misused in potentially deadly ways and that justifies some level of restriction and management to seek to minimise those risks. The only (albeit difficult) questions is how and to what extent that should be done.

In other words not a politician (certainly not politicians) and not calling for a ban on knives.

Semantics. The article makes plain the specific types of knives banned, and the circumstances under which they're banned.

I contend that a city/nation where so-called free citizens can't walk around with a pocket knife, hunting knife, or any other kind of knife with a 3+" blade bears the indictment, "We are a nation of children, so infantilized and beholden to state supervision that we can't even be trusted to walk around with sharp objects anymore."

”Consulting on” typically means a government has no intention of doing anything but doesn’t want to admit that to the media.

You shouldn't have any qualms going on record accepting my challenge in the final paragraph of post #5 then.

It’s not “overkill”, it was an outright lie.

Untrue. Bans with limitations and conditions are still bans. The article is diligent to provide these limitations and conditions, and cites mainstream articles to back up every claim.

I'm willing to say "overkill" because there's a fair chance readers perusing the headline might wrongly conclude--as you did--that "ban" refers to all knives, unconditionally, everywhere, if they don't bother reading the article. "Politicians now considering London-style knife ban nationwide" would be more accurate.

there is a world of difference between trying to stop young gang members carrying weapons and banning all knives.

It's good to know the bans only affect young gang members and not, say, every single Londoner.

I’m not in favour of widespread knife restrictions myself and think some of the laws and certainly some of the proposals are excessive and unnecessary.

Amen. We can agree on something, at least.

 

[HonestJoe]

Semantics. The article makes plain the specific types of knives banned, and the circumstances under which they're banned.

Semantics, as in what the words actually mean rather than what they’re being spun and misrepresented to mean. The article you quoted doesn’t make anything plain because it simply copy-pastes a series of different articles from different times, misrepresents what they say and spins up a misleading conclusion. It isn’t an attempt at a serious discussion of the law in the UK, it’s an attack piece designed to grab hits and stir up hatred.

You shouldn't have any qualms going on record accepting my challenge in the final paragraph of post #5 then.

No, because as I pointed out, there is no London-specific knife ban, merely differences in how policies forces operate based on the pattern of crime they’re facing. Similar policies exist in other large cities with similar knife-crime issues but won’t exist in other religions which don’t. I wouldn’t expect any of that to significantly change in the foreseeable future.

Untrue. Bans with limitations and conditions are still bans. The article is diligent to provide these limitations and conditions, and cites mainstream articles to back up every claim.

Stop defending the scum. The intention of the headline was clearly to suggest that there were serious political proposals to completely ban all knives in the UK. That was a lie. Tabloid headlines are very often lies so this is nothing new or special but it’s still fraudulent and should still be attacked at every opportunity.

It's good to know the bans only affect young gang members and not, say, every single Londoner.

Now you’re playing the spin game. I never suggested that was the case as you well know. I’ve no interest in discussing this important topic with you if you’re unwilling or unable to do it honestly and accurately.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Yes it’s almost funny how when you take states that are wealthy and upwards of 90% white just like the U.K. is then the homicide rates look similar. It’s like gun laws have zero correlation to murder rates :shrug:

Thanks for the racist comment it was so helpful.

 

[COTO]

Semantics, as in what the words actually mean rather than what they’re being spun and misrepresented to mean. The article you quoted doesn’t make anything plain because it simply copy-pastes a series of different articles from different times, misrepresents what they say and spins up a misleading conclusion. It isn’t an attempt at a serious discussion of the law in the UK, it’s an attack piece designed to grab hits and stir up hatred.

Agree to disagree.

No, because as I pointed out, there is no London-specific knife ban, merely differences in how policies forces operate based on the pattern of crime they’re facing. Similar policies exist in other large cities with similar knife-crime issues but won’t exist in other religions which don’t. I wouldn’t expect any of that to significantly change in the foreseeable future.

I do expect it to change in the foreseeable future--specifically, in the next five years, across the UK.

Any region, be it a city, province, or nation, that i) bans public carrying of knives with 3"+ blades, ii) bans sales of knives to minors, iii) bans online delivery of knives to homes, or iv) bans pointed kitchen knives or any kind of bladed kitchen tool is in the thrall of intolerable nanny-statism and should be soundly condemned. Its legislators have either lost all perspective, forsaken due respect for its citizens' liberties, or most likely both.

Stop defending the scum. The intention of the headline was clearly to suggest that there were serious political proposals to completely ban all knives in the UK.

Agree to disagree.

Now you’re playing the spin game. I never suggested that was the case as you well know. I’ve no interest in discussing this important topic with you if you’re unwilling or unable to do it honestly and accurately.

You're the one spinning.

Saith the supporter of sodapop bans: "There is a world of difference between trying to halt an epidemic of youth diabetes and banning all food" ...as though "trying to halt an epidemic of youth diabetes" was in any way a fair description of a sodapop ban. ...or "banning all food" was a legitimate counterproposal.

Saith Honest Joe: "There is a world of difference between trying to stop young gang members carrying weapons and banning all knives" ...as though "trying to stop young gang members carrying weapons" is in any way a fair description of (i), (ii), (iii), and (iv) above. ...or "banning all knives" was suggested anywhere in the article.

You don't like spin? Lead by example. Don't hide behind euphemisms and attack straw men.

"There is a world of difference between banning certain knives (putatively to curb violence among youth gangs) and banning all knives, which is what is implied by the article title, albeit never expressly stated." There. No spin.

 

[Peter King]

Excerpted from With Gun Ban Not Working, Politicians In Britain Now Want To Ban Knives Nationwide | Zero Hedge:

If ever we needed proof of the expression that "guns don’t kill people, people kill people" look no further than Britain, where families may have to start practicing cutting their steak and bread at dinner with a spoon. This is, of course, because Britain's politicians have now made the absurdly ridiculous move to call for the banning of what Reason magazine called "the most useful tool ever invented" - the knife.

...

Shortly after London Mayor Sadiq Kahn's city-wide ban on knives, The Express had reported that one of Scotland’s leading doctors has called for a ban on "killer" kitchen knives.

Dr John Crichton, the new chairman of the Royal College of Psychiatrists in Scotland, wants the sale of pointed kitchen knives to be banned to help reduce the number of fatal stabbings.

Dr Crichton, who took on the role of chairman in June this year, is championing a switch to so-called “R”-bladed knives, which have rounded points and are far less effective as weapons.​

I just... I got nothin'. View attachment 67255957

And you point would be with this? Also, how does this have anything to do with gun control?

 

[COTO]

And you point would be with this?

Reader awareness. Curiosity as to whether anyone would argue in defense of it.

Also, how does this have anything to do with gun control?

Nothing. And seeing how greatly the dig at gun control in the title provoked gun control proponents, I really wish reason.com (via ZH) hadn't put it there.

In the reason.com piece, Mr. Tuccille argues that gun control in the UK is a "failure" because Londoners are now stabbing each other to death in record numbers. That's why gun control appears in the headline and preamble.

Although I'm sure there's some correlation between the gun ban and the surge in knife crime, it isn't nearly sufficient grounds to call the former a "failure". It's a terrible argument, generally. Personally, I'm only interested in the knife ban(s).

 

[Peter King]

Reader awareness. Curiosity as to whether anyone would argue in defense of it.


Nothing. And seeing how greatly the dig at gun control in the title provoked gun control proponents, I really wish reason.com (via ZH) hadn't put it there.

In the reason.com piece, Mr. Tuccille argues that gun control in the UK is a "failure" because Londoners are now stabbing each other to death in record numbers. That's why gun control appears in the headline and preamble.

Although I'm sure there's some correlation between the gun ban and the surge in knife crime, it isn't nearly sufficient grounds to call the former a "failure". It's a terrible argument, generally. Personally, I'm only interested in the knife ban(s).

Except gun control in many countries work. And knife bans is very appropriate. If you go out on the street to hang out on the neighborhood corner and you are bringing a 15 inch kitchen knife then you deserve to be arrested and prosecuted. There is no earthly reason to be carrying such a knife for a friendly meeting with buddies.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

~ how does this have anything to do with gun control?

Nothing whatsoever, just like the amount of credibility I give to a claim of a knife ban in the UK.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

The homicide rates are not as bad in many States though. List of U.S. states by homicide rate - Wikipedia

New Hampshire is safer than the UK. lol

So long as you aren't suicidal, involved in gangs or the drug war, or live in a leftist controlled city, America is the safest place you can live.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Except gun control in many countries work. And knife bans is very appropriate. If you go out on the street to hang out on the neighborhood corner and you are bringing a 15 inch kitchen knife then you deserve to be arrested and prosecuted. There is no earthly reason to be carrying such a knife for a friendly meeting with buddies.

Are they proposing banning the carry of them or is it ownership, in the home, when cutting vegetables?

Home deliveries of knives bought online to be banned in UK | UK news | The Guardian

 

[Sweden]

So long as you aren't suicidal, involved in gangs or the drug war, or live in a leftist controlled city, America is the safest place you can live.

So you have even the slightest trace of evidence for this piece of hyperbole? Or is it just wishful thinking?

 

[Spartacus FPV]

So you have even the slightest trace of evidence for this piece of hyperbole? Or is it just wishful thinking?

Yeah, FBI crime stats. Over 60% of gun deaths in America are suicides. You didn't know this?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Are they proposing banning the carry of them or is it ownership, in the home, when cutting vegetables?

Home deliveries of knives bought online to be banned in UK | UK news | The Guardian

No, that's just a strawman that fools Americans mainly.

So long as you aren't suicidal, involved in gangs or the drug war, or live in a leftist controlled city, America is the safest place you can live.

Same applies to anywhere in the world. Trouble is, you have to take a country as a whole and you have a horrible homicide rate compared to other developed western nations.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

No, that's just a strawman that fools Americans mainly.

How so? How can an article be a straw man? There is no target to misrepresent when stating a fact about a proposed law. Are you claiming the proposal never happened, or are you just being insulting and dismissive as a replacement for actual debate skills?

Same applies to anywhere in the world. Trouble is, you have to take a country as a whole and you have a horrible homicide rate compared to other developed western nations.

Only if you want to use statistics dishonestly to suit an agenda. Otherwise, understanding the nuances of how safe you actually are matter. For the same reason I avoid high crime areas in Democrat controlled cities.

Anyone who includes suicides when discussing comparative homicide rates is being dishonest. When we're talking about my chances of being killed, if I am not suicidal, you are overstating the risks.

That said, even if things were truly worse here across the board, I'd still take falling violent crime rates over rising ones. I'd still take freedom over being a subject with no free speech.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

How so? How can an article be a straw man? There is no target to misrepresent when stating a fact about a proposed law. Are you claiming the proposal never happened, or are you just being insulting and dismissive as a replacement for actual debate skills?

You want me to debate the merit of a law / ban that doesn't even exist and isn't going to happen?

~ Only if you want to use statistics dishonestly to suit an agenda.

That's exactly what you did by selectively using statistics in America. You stated "Over 60% of gun deaths in America are suicides"

So what are the other 40%?

 

[Sweden]

Yeah, FBI crime stats. Over 60% of gun deaths in America are suicides. You didn't know this?

That does not make any part of the USA "the safest place to live". It is a factoid of your invention, lacking any evidence to back it up.

 

[Mr Person]

Knife control is absurd, even in the midst of an epidemic of stabbings.

You do realize that the vast majority of states have some form of "knife control", ie, banning switchblades, carrying knives over a certain size (generally such that they're effectively short swords but without a hilt)...... right?

 

[Peter King]

Are they proposing banning the carry of them or is it ownership, in the home, when cutting vegetables?

Home deliveries of knives bought online to be banned in UK | UK news | The Guardian

Well, I think home deliveries should be possible but then an adult has to sign for the knife or no delivery. Or else children order one while the parents are at work and still get their hands on dangerous knifes meant for violence.