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Not My Final Post on 9/11

Ned Racine

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:2wave: I've always thought that in terms of various forums that an additional guideline concerning redundancy in Conspiracy matters might be a Good Idea OR possibly a limitation of some aspects of certain theories.

Those obsessed with 9/11 to the extent they view our present Government(s) as All powerful and all knowing who "knew in Advance" and wanted only to get an excuse to curtail all our liberties for "Dark Forces" - probably Corporate related - should be possibly cautioned in advance. This would not be a prohibition on accusing almost anyone of incompetence , but some of the zanier details should be left out by specific decree. This means you can criticize anyone in Government and give technical theory but nonsense like "No Plane hit the Pentagon" :shock:eek:r those listed as the Hijackers are still alive":shock:eek:r "Barbara Olson is in Poland under an assumed name" or GWB knew in advance:shock:

This type stuff out of simple respect for the dead should be curtailed and I don't buy the argument that Sunlight cures all infectious matters. Up until recently the was a British based site called WWE (War Without End) that made the Truth Squad here look like meek accountants. Some actually had a Religous fervor about their accusations and in short order a small cadre of Islamists came aboard denouncing the West in General and accusing Israel of 9/11. The board was overwhelmed and I suspect legal concerns in the UK caused it's shutdown.

It's been 9 years now. Only a small core group of Screwballs believes that people other than AQ operatives caused the death toll on 9/11/01 by commandeering 4 planes. This will be History's judgment and it will be more solid over the years than Pearl Harbor or the JFK assasination in Dallas.
 

MaggieD

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:2wave: I've always thought that in terms of various forums that an additional guideline concerning redundancy in Conspiracy matters might be a Good Idea OR possibly a limitation of some aspects of certain theories.

Those obsessed with 9/11 to the extent they view our present Government(s) as All powerful and all knowing who "knew in Advance" and wanted only to get an excuse to curtail all our liberties for "Dark Forces" - probably Corporate related - should be possibly cautioned in advance. This would not be a prohibition on accusing almost anyone of incompetence , but some of the zanier details should be left out by specific decree. This means you can criticize anyone in Government and give technical theory but nonsense like "No Plane hit the Pentagon" :shock:eek:r those listed as the Hijackers are still alive":shock:eek:r "Barbara Olson is in Poland under an assumed name" or GWB knew in advance:shock:

This type stuff out of simple respect for the dead should be curtailed and I don't buy the argument that Sunlight cures all infectious matters. Up until recently the was a British based site called WWE (War Without End) that made the Truth Squad here look like meek accountants. Some actually had a Religous fervor about their accusations and in short order a small cadre of Islamists came aboard denouncing the West in General and accusing Israel of 9/11. The board was overwhelmed and I suspect legal concerns in the UK caused it's shutdown.

It's been 9 years now. Only a small core group of Screwballs believes that people other than AQ operatives caused the death toll on 9/11/01 by commandeering 4 planes. This will be History's judgment and it will be more solid over the years than Pearl Harbor or the JFK assasination in Dallas.

If you are suggesting that posts on 9/11 be censored in any other way than under general forum rules as they now exist, which I think is what you're saying, I'm totally opposed.

Those who wish to debate 9/11 should be completely free to do so. Those who wish to participate can do so; those who want to make fun can do so; and those who don't even want to open the link can not do so.

Respect for the dead has nothing to do with it.

JMVHO.
 

Ned Racine

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We either Respect Them , Or We Don't Respect Them and for example Someone stating that the SS did not run Auschwitz, that it was the National Cash Register Company or the Suisse Credit Bank , or the ILGWU should not only be not be simply ridiculed but told to dine elsewhere.
 

BmanMcfly

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:2wave: I've always thought that in terms of various forums that an additional guideline concerning redundancy in Conspiracy matters might be a Good Idea OR possibly a limitation of some aspects of certain theories.

How about you take your subtle nazi worship and put it somewhere else??? Look, you can discuss whatever abhorrent desires you have, but to tell someone that they should be limited in their discussions.... well, that's just opening the door to all out censorship and you end up with the old soviet model of 'that speech made me feel bad', being justification for 're-education' or to be tossed into a mental institute.

Let's carry on with this tripe you're suggesting.

Those obsessed with 9/11 to the extent they view our present Government(s) as All powerful and all knowing who "knew in Advance" and wanted only to get an excuse to curtail all our liberties for "Dark Forces" - probably Corporate related - should be possibly cautioned in advance. This would not be a prohibition on accusing almost anyone of incompetence , but some of the zanier details should be left out by specific decree. This means you can criticize anyone in Government and give technical theory but nonsense like "No Plane hit the Pentagon" :shock:eek:r those listed as the Hijackers are still alive":shock:eek:r "Barbara Olson is in Poland under an assumed name" or GWB knew in advance:shock:

Umm... first, it's all but proven that elements within the government DID know in advance of 9-11, for any and or all incompetence within government on 9-11 NOBODY was so much as demoted. The 'no plane hit the pentagon'... I"ll agree that this was some disinformation... BUT, the pentagon exacerbated this debate with it's handling of the issue... It was the BBC that reported a number of the hijackers as still alive. Never heard of the woman that was still alive... but if that case were proven, I don't see how this should be 'silenced'?? Finally, GWB knowing in advance... all you gotta do is look at what Bush did that day, and it makes it's own statements.

So, who is going to be the 'judge and jury' of what is acceptable speech?? You?? Someone that's so seemingly eager and willing to shut down people's speech? It's bad enough that such discussions be relegated to 'conspiracy theory zone', but at least the discussion is allowed to continue.

This type stuff out of simple respect for the dead should be curtailed and I don't buy the argument that Sunlight cures all infectious matters. Up until recently the was a British based site called WWE (War Without End) that made the Truth Squad here look like meek accountants. Some actually had a Religous fervor about their accusations and in short order a small cadre of Islamists came aboard denouncing the West in General and accusing Israel of 9/11. The board was overwhelmed and I suspect legal concerns in the UK caused it's shutdown.

Yes, that's because in the UK they no longer believe in free speech... they are slowly closing down their society... installing the 'iron curtain' so to speak. Your type of stuff should be curtailed as well, but I have to allow you to spew this tripe and just point out how abhorrent such suggestions are, or else I will just as quickly be silenced myself. Don't you get that??

It's been 9 years now. Only a small core group of Screwballs believes that people other than AQ operatives caused the death toll on 9/11/01 by commandeering 4 planes. This will be History's judgment and it will be more solid over the years than Pearl Harbor or the JFK assasination in Dallas.

First off you don't know what you're talking about, or are just making stuff up, since it goes along the same lines as the indefensible nonsense you've been spewing, I'll help correct your statements...

This was in 2008 :
500px-911worldopinionpoll_Sep2008.png

Zogby :
- No cover-up 48%, 42% cover up, 10% unsure - 2006
- 43% not aware of building 7, 38% aware and want an investigation, 14% aware no investigation
- 47% believe it was thoroughly investigated, 45% call for a reinvestigation, 8% don't know

New york times polls : In EVERY case over 50% believe the government is mostly telling the truth but hiding something

I could go on further, but this compilation is from September 11 attacks opinion polls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We either Respect Them , Or We Don't Respect Them
You're either with us or against us, right?? Well, the real world isn't that simple.

Tell me, would YOU feel respected if a family member of yours was killed, and when the cops came to investigate said 'oh it's gang related so we won't be able to solve it'?? And so you start pushing to have the crime investigated and are given some nonsense reason why you should shut up like 'oh that's a conspiracy theory'??? And no, not everyone feels this is the case... that's fine, but if someone did feel that this was a reasonable analogy, what does that say about the people so eager to prevent investigation?

and for example Someone stating that the SS did not run Auschwitz, that it was the National Cash Register Company or the Suisse Credit Bank , or the ILGWU should not only be not be simply ridiculed but told to dine elsewhere.

Listen, if you're going to have a historical discussion and you're not presenting any facts, well, you should be ridiculed off the stage... but that doesn't mean you should be arrested for speaking nonsense as you're subtly suggesting.

So, does it then become a criminal offense to point out IBM's contribution to the camps?? Or pointing out how Prescott Bush's oil company supplied for both sides, both sides funded by the same banks, etc?? How some british royalty had a photo op with British troops and then ran to the other side of the lines and started shooting at the troops he just took a picture with??
 

Ned Racine

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You see- this guy is sort of like the "Andromeda Strain" - in short you don't add to the inferno to overwhelm him because he's all about more fuel hitting the flames. It's beyond theory - but a tactic - and YES I knew that in advance.

He points out essentially objective criticism of his many month's of Saturation Bombing as a Call for Censorship which it is not. You see he can always in a Free Society be able to expound on his theories even if they are nonsense and DO insult the larger culture of Common decency - but WOULD HE or OTHERS if GIVEN ANY REAL POWER or CONTROL extend that same long term Rights to others (???) to those in sharp disagreement????? This I do tend to wonder a bit on, and while I Know even a Lunatic Fringe comes in at various levels the very fact that they have utilized & sullied the term "Truth" is in itself cause to doubt a lot of their views are all that Honest.
 

usda select

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You see- this guy is sort of like the "Andromeda Strain" - in short you don't add to the inferno to overwhelm him because he's all about more fuel hitting the flames. It's beyond theory - but a tactic - and YES I knew that in advance.

He points out essentially objective criticism of his many month's of Saturation Bombing as a Call for Censorship which it is not. You see he can always in a Free Society be able to expound on his theories even if they are nonsense and DO insult the larger culture of Common decency - but WOULD HE or OTHERS if GIVEN ANY REAL POWER or CONTROL extend that same long term Rights to others (???) to those in sharp disagreement????? This I do tend to wonder a bit on, and while I Know even a Lunatic Fringe comes in at various levels the very fact that they have utilized & sullied the term "Truth" is in itself cause to doubt a lot of their views are all that Honest.

If you want to know what I think; eventually we will have to address the much outdated US constitution and retrofit it for the 2000's. When we do, we need to have a responsibility clause next to the first amendment so you can persecute the totally irresponsible stuff B'man' says.
 

BmanMcfly

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You see- this guy is sort of like the "Andromeda Strain" - in short you don't add to the inferno to overwhelm him because he's all about more fuel hitting the flames. It's beyond theory - but a tactic - and YES I knew that in advance.

WHAT are you talking about?

He points out essentially objective criticism of his many month's of Saturation Bombing as a Call for Censorship which it is not.

Saturation bombing of what? You were only a few words shy of making an open call for censhorship and I AM the one at fault??? Is that actually what you're saying?

You see he can always in a Free Society be able to expound on his theories even if they are nonsense and DO insult the larger culture of Common decency - but WOULD HE or OTHERS if GIVEN ANY REAL POWER or CONTROL extend that same long term Rights to others (???) to those in sharp disagreement?????

Ya, so let's have a dictatorship... we should lock people that don't tow the party line into a jail cell, or a reeducation camp... right??

Of COURSE I can't call to shut you up... but I ALSO have the responsibility to point out that you're a tyrant in the making that would silence all opposition instantly... BASED ON your stated opinions here... I'm just here pointing out the clear and indefensible nonsense for what it is... and also pointing out that you can't silence 1 person / idea without risking ALL independent thought be silenced.

This I do tend to wonder a bit on, and while I Know even a Lunatic Fringe comes in at various levels the very fact that they have utilized & sullied the term "Truth" is in itself cause to doubt a lot of their views are all that Honest.

What?!?!? and you think of yourself as honest?? by what merit?

If you want to know what I think; eventually we will have to address the much outdated US constitution and retrofit it for the 2000's. When we do, we need to have a responsibility clause next to the first amendment so you can persecute the totally irresponsible stuff B'man' says.

OMG... YOU ARE a little stalin wannabe... my god man... don't you know what happens when people like you create this type of situation you're proposing???

I'll give you a hint; almost everytime there's been a communist takeover... once the takeover is complete and those that expect to gain power and influence from the change... welll... they don't get the prize they expected. You should read a history book to find out what happens to the enablers of tyrants.
 

Ned Racine

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Okay - Here goes - most here I suspect have a greater historical perspective than you do and have enough years to truly appreciate the true perils to our society. It's been said before that 9/11 Truthers are (despite 3,000 dead that day) in some Video game mode, and they see it all including Point/Counter Point exchanges as some Cyber Chess Game that thru voluminous entries will alter reality in some minds ALSO who do not have either maturity or perspective.

THIS BTW was the Michael Moore approach in his F9/11 obscenity. He knew the audience he could appeal to and he took the Suckers all the way to the Bank.

Then there are the Ron Paul retreads some of whom are actual Leftists, and If I recall You have never exactly expounded on these points.
 

BmanMcfly

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Okay - Here goes - most here I suspect have a greater historical perspective than you do and have enough years to truly appreciate the true perils to our society.

I'm sure some of them do... and if I took the time to illustrate the precedences... of which in just the past 100 years I could mention at least 5 (NOT including Hitler).

It's been said before that 9/11 Truthers are (despite 3,000 dead that day) in some Video game mode, and they see it all including Point/Counter Point exchanges as some Cyber Chess Game that thru voluminous entries will alter reality in some minds ALSO who do not have either maturity or perspective.

This is utter nonsense, if anything the reality is closer to the opposite... the extent of people's capacity to deny certain facts that contradict their version of 'truth'... it's nothing short of legendary.

THIS BTW was the Michael Moore approach in his F9/11 obscenity. He knew the audience he could appeal to and he took the Suckers all the way to the Bank.

Michael Moore also presented Bush as some happy go-lucky dumb redneck that was in over his head... He's a shill, really.

Then there are the Ron Paul retreads some of whom are actual Leftists, and If I recall You have never exactly expounded on these points.

Huh?? Ron Paul is a classical republican... he has some leftist support though because the left is so far gone from traditional democratic values that even as a republican still comes closer to their views then any democrat.

But I'm not sure if that's addressing your question, because I'm not sure what you mean be retreads.
 

usda select

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Ya, so let's have a dictatorship... we should lock people that don't tow the party line into a jail cell, or a reeducation camp... right??
What most of the truth movement has done is tantamount to treason in a time of war such as this. I would have no problem seeing you and creativedreams lead away and locked up. I don't think wasting time to re-educate someone on whom it didnt take the first time is a good way to spend our money. Just my 2 cents.
 

usda select

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Okay - Here goes - most here I suspect have a greater historical perspective than you do and have enough years to truly appreciate the true perils to our society. It's been said before that 9/11 Truthers are (despite 3,000 dead that day) in some Video game mode, and they see it all including Point/Counter Point exchanges as some Cyber Chess Game that thru voluminous entries will alter reality in some minds ALSO who do not have either maturity or perspective.

Bravo!

Way too much cannabis and way too much X-box in the truth movement.
 

Ned Racine

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The Truthers cannot Let Go of this and it isn't OCD. Once again I believe it to them is a Game, and one that IF coming to Fruition will make them as Individuals look good. Like Who will find the "Lost Dutchman Mine". Some also have zero Loyalty to the Country and see a massive revelation as the broken hinge to undo the society even. This BTW is a subliminal trait in UFO activists.
 

I_Gaze_At_The_Blue

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Couldn't stop yourself uh !!!

You must be so emotionally stirred by conspiracy that you find it impossible to walk away and just live your life ... you seem tied inexorably to it, so we all knew you could not stay away, your nothing if not predictable in that.

Umm... first, it's all but proven that elements within the government DID know in advance of 9-11,

No, B'man elements did NOT know in advance OF 9/11 ... they just knew OF the POSSIBILITY of an attack ... they did NOT know the when ... the who ... and the what.

I know for a fact that there will be accidents and possibly deaths this coming winter on the A9, the only major road running through the Highlands ... but I do not know the exact details.

Same for the US intelligence communities ... they had enough information to say they "knew" an attack was coming ... but NOT enough to know specifics ... there is a difference.

You are accusing them of having those specifics ... but here's a wee hint ... they didn't !!!

The 'no plane hit the pentagon'... I"ll agree that this was some disinformation... BUT, the pentagon exacerbated this debate with it's handling of the issue...

See how you twist things ... your conspiracy belief gets so demolished that you have to accept an aircraft hit the Pentagon ... but your bias is so strong you have to "re-work" it into some sort of exacerbated "disinformation" instigated by the Pentagon itself !!!

Your so desperate for it to be a conspiracy your willing (probably unconciously) to twist and manipulate legitimate infomation until it suits your pet belief ... that is intellectually dishonest.

It was the BBC that reported a number of the hijackers as still alive.

Here you go again, taking what was an error of reporting and making it a big deal !!!

You are aware that to Western eyes and ears many Eastern names are easily mistaken for similar sounding ones ... that because they SHARE certain characteristics and patromymic origins so that different names look to us the same.

Muslim names follow rules which include defining of relationship not only to your parentage, but also lineage, clan names, nisbah (occupational names) and even geographical connections ... and that ONE person can have SEVERAL legitimate names.

And because there is no universally accepted method of transliterating Arabic into English, one name can end up having many different ways of spelling it ... making it extremely easy for mistakes to be made.

Arabic name - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Muttaqun OnLine - List of Muslim Names - Islamic Baby Names

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/us/21hijackers.html?_r=1

Al Jezzera have released video wills of all but one of the hijackers ... have you ever even looked for them ???

Never heard of the woman that was still alive...

Which woman ???

Why do you think we are all mind-readers here ... for you throw out sentences WITHOUT further information and expect us to know what you are talking about, don't you think that shows that instead of considered, thought-out responses you are more emotive and kneejerk, as it is all but impossible to keep up with the jumbled and mixed events you include all the time ???

Yes, that's because in the UK they no longer believe in free speech... they are slowly closing down their society... installing the 'iron curtain' so to speak.

Bollocks B'man ... NO SUCH THING IS HAPPENING IN THE UK !!!

War Without End was a tiny site with minimal traffic or participation ... look at their 9/11 section ... in the 7 years the site had been up and running there were NO more than 2263 posts relating to 9/11 ... LESS than three thousand posts in 7 years ... for what possible reason would such a minor and unimportant site "need" closing down ???

I will bet my grandchildrens pocket money that they just faded away from non interest and died a lonely death, and it had NOTHING to do with a deliberate shut-down ... but of course, as per the way these people think, they will spin it to make it seem they were shut ... they weren't ... they just had no interest from people !!!

I am going to reiterate what another poster says and ask what gives you the "right" to make such comments regarding a nation you will undoubtably NEVER have even visited or know anything real about ???

By what right do you "presume" to know more than me what is happening in my own country ???

I am a UK citizen and there is no "closing" down going on at all ... you, again, have been swayed by stupid sites that talk garbage ... and in complete ignorance parrot what you have been "told" is happening.

WHY do you do this ... speak about things you patently know nothing about ... come visit the UK ... see for yourself.

But mostly STOP getting your information and worldview from sites that so glaringly are totally biased and wrong.

OVER-INTERPRETATION IS A BAD IDEA ... stop doing it, for it makes you see things that do not exist !!!

what does that say about the people so eager to prevent investigation?

Who is preventing anyone from investigation this B'man ???

I'll tell you ... NO-ONE !!!

There is ... has been ... and will be ... NO-ONE preventing you or any other truther or group from individually or co-operatively doing any investigation.

Undoubtably you will retort with that there woud be no subpoena powers or criminal charges available, but so what ... there is STILL nothing preventing you investigating any of the other parts and by doing so, were you found truthful, would be an important FIRST STEP to getting the rest done.

If you could definatively prove those parts it would be so much easier to convince the general populace to demand a further more criminal one, which is what you are really after.

But by ONLY demanding a full, legal, criminal-type one with full subpoena powers BEFORE proving the other stuff, you are setting false standards ... which is entirely self-defeating, but there is still nothing on this Earth stopping any of you from travelling to any of the sites of 9/11, finding and interviewing those involved, and finding out whether or not they "support" your interpretation or from proving your scientific claims ... even in another country.

Stop whining about an investigation which no-one is stopping you from doing yourselves !!!

How some british royalty had a photo op with British troops and then ran to the other side of the lines and started shooting at the troops he just took a picture with?

Some more info on this please ... because it will undoubtably turn out to be some conspiracy site making false claims, which you blindly fell for !!!

This will turn out to be a completely DIFFERERENT story in real life as what where-ever you got this from made it out to be ... guaranteed !!!
 
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Ned Racine

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In Fairness to the Conspiracy Regiment - I am the one who brought up WWE. I do believe the percentage of 9/11 topics there was higher, but as of now it's impossible to verify. The Moderator in Chief there was always mentioning some Civil action against someone, and it had several Hard Core Islamists on board so I concluded some outside force assisted it's demise.

It was of course a real Fruitcake land with one guy called Dives who would make BM look like a Junior ROTC participant.

I departed because it was just unreal, and the Anti Semitism was just too much.
 

BmanMcfly

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Couldn't stop yourself uh !!!

Well, since this thread was calling me out specifically (through the verbiage of the title), has nothing to do with 9-11 but rather is a few words shy of being an open call for censorship and incrimination of ideas and debate topics. So, YA...

You must be so emotionally stirred by conspiracy that you find it impossible to walk away and just live your life ... you seem tied inexorably to it, so we all knew you could not stay away, your nothing if not predictable in that.

No, this was CALLING ME OUT and calling for the stifling of any debate... using the 'holocaust denier' argument is to suggest that I should be IMPRISONED for my statements. So, don't be ****ing stupid about this, this is NOT a discussion on 9-11 this is a discussion about censorship.

No, B'man elements did NOT know in advance OF 9/11 ... they just knew OF the POSSIBILITY of an attack ... they did NOT know the when ... the who ... and the what.

Yes yes... whatever... everything is out of context I know, unless it happens to agree with your position.... that's what I was getting sick of with the 9-11 debate.

See how you twist things ... your conspiracy belief gets so demolished that you have to accept an aircraft hit the Pentagon ... but your bias is so strong you have to "re-work" it into some sort of exacerbated "disinformation" instigated by the Pentagon itself !!!

I"VE SAID FOR YEARS that debating the Pentagon attack was essentially a red herring issue... it didn't matter what really hit the pentagon, though I now honestly believe that it was the plane (or a repainted plane of similar design, as per operation northwoods). I engaged in these debates hoping that it would get resolved... and yes... I was actually HAPPY to have this issue reasonably confirmed and resolved...

Contrary to your belief... I do NOT WANT to believe this stuff... but I, unlike yourself and others CANNOT simply 'dismiss' information that disagrees.

Here you go again, taking what was an error of reporting and making it a big deal !!!

You are aware that to Western eyes and ears many Eastern names are easily mistaken for similar sounding ones ... that because they SHARE certain characteristics and patromymic origins so that different names look to us the same.

I AM NOT making a big deal of it... I was pointing out the fact... but in your delusion you seem to think that facts are malleable to your opinions.

Which woman ???

Read the friggin quote if you care... only you would take a point where I say 'I don't know' and turn it into a lengthy diatribe to prove that I'm wrong... neglecting the fact that I cannot be 'Right' while claiming ignorance of the specific topic.
Bollocks B'man ... NO SUCH THING IS HAPPENING IN THE UK !!!

So, are you FOS or unaware :
- BBC NEWS | UK | England | Columnist arrested over 'race' speech
- BBC NEWS | UK | England | Oxfordshire | 'Gay' police horse case dropped (though this case was dropped because of lack of evidence... lucky for this guy the cop didn't have a camera)
- BBC NEWS | UK | England | Hate crime police raid 150 homes (though you'll defend this one.. because they throw in some legitimate arrests as well as the arrests made for making statements... then in a twist of irony they say "People should not have to go through life being subjected to abuse because of who they are or what they believe in.", but they should be arrested and charged if they happen to verbalize their thoughts)

By what right do you "presume" to know more than me what is happening in my own country ??

Because I not only read north american news, I also read news briefs from the UK, Australia, even from time to time I'll read news from the middle eastern sources... and well, you're not paying attention, maybe that while that you were making the UK a better place, you didn't realize that you were enabling this type of tyrannical system.

You're from the birthplace of the magna carta, the MODEL for freedom, and now you (culturally) spit on it in the name of 'safety' and to not be hurt by people's speech.

I am a UK citizen and there is no "closing" down going on at all ... you, again, have been swayed by stupid sites that talk garbage ... and in complete ignorance parrot what you have been "told" is happening.

Ya... like the BBC as you'll notice in those links...

WHY do you do this ... speak about things you patently know nothing about ... come visit the UK ... see for yourself.

Whatever, you didn't believe me when I told you about photographers being arrested for taking pictures of monuments... but you're probably going to 'deny' that that exists again... I WISH I could be like you and live in delusional thinking like you decide reality.

Who is preventing anyone from investigation this B'man ???

I didn't mean LITERALLY preventing investigation... BUT when you're subtly saying "don't look at that, the investigation was good, sit down and shut up" You are enabling this atmosphere that prevents a new investigation from coming about... though, a proper investigation would require subpoena powers, something not given to any of the 'investigations', so it's not simply this...

That's why I am asking... WHY are the debunkers BENT on telling people that everything is fine, don't investigate, we got all the answers... when even BASICS like 'who got fired or demoted for their actions / inaction?', and other similar questions that, EVEN if we run with the fairy tale, SOMEONE probably along the lines screwed up enough to justify their losing their jobs... Not a security screener that let 19 boxcutters onto various flights, not an intelligence agent that failed to bring up intelligence issues, not a NORAD officer telling the FAA that the hijack codes they were getting were part of a drill... I mean, SOMEONE failed at their job that day... and in other comparable situations people have been fired or demoted.

Undoubtably you will retort with that there woud be no subpoena powers or criminal charges available, but so what ... there is STILL nothing preventing you investigating any of the other parts and by doing so, were you found truthful, would be an important FIRST STEP to getting the rest done.

Just a bunch of wanna be stalinists like USDA_racine suggesting that people should be arrested for engaging in such discussions... but more importantly because you got 'debunkers' going around deciding on reality... and beyond that, you're seemingly suggesting that 9-11 seekers of truth should be engaging in some sort of vigilante investigation in pursuit of justice... this shouldn't be necessary.

If you could definatively prove those parts it would be so much easier to convince the general populace to demand a further more criminal one, which is what you are really after.

Any sane minded individual can look at the facts and about 3 out of 5 times (in experience), with all the facts on the table you get some variation of a 'holy ****' response... the fact is that most people have simply accepted the official version. As I pointed out in the earlier post, it's in the high 40% of people DO NOT KNOW about WTC7. They are STILL unaware...

Stop whining about an investigation which no-one is stopping you from doing yourselves !!!

Oh, ya. I'll just walk up to the pentagon and start flipping stones hoping to find something... you're being rediculous and you know it.

Some more info on this please ... because it will undoubtably turn out to be some conspiracy site making false claims, which you blindly fell for !!!

No, it was from a history book about WW2, and I can't find a relevant link... so I'll just concede for you and point out King Edwards abdication... BBC NEWS | UK | Profile: Edward VIII
 

BmanMcfly

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The Truthers cannot Let Go of this and it isn't OCD. Once again I believe it to them is a Game, and one that IF coming to Fruition will make them as Individuals look good. Like Who will find the "Lost Dutchman Mine".

This is because of how 'truthers' view this situation, this will vary individually, but at the very least it's a situation of suspecting 'things don't add up' which potentially drives a quest for answers. Others suspect wrongdoing on the day, others wrongdoing in the reaction... it all varies... I am willing to speculate on certain issues based on the facts, though I know that's mostly a tactic to come up with some generalized 'debunk' (too many people, too complex, can't keep a secret, no eyewitnesses / can't be trusted... OUT OF CONTEXT, this is like a trump card of debunkers... NEVER (or 95% of never,) do they offer the proper context and an explanation of WHY and HOW... just the blanket statement...

No, this does not 'make me look good'... Are you KIDDING ME?!?! I've put up with so much blind ridicule, it's not even funny... it hasn't stopped me. The few times people approached my aggressively because of my discussions with others, I've managed to convince the antagonistic person of the legitimacy of my points enough to avert a bad situation (once was for an upside-down flag prominently displayed)...

This is not about 'looking good', this more like a neighbor running into a burning house to make sure everyone gets out... and the people inside watching tv turn and tell you 'oh it's just a little fire, no big deal'... then telling them 'no it's half the house is on fire we gotta get out NOW'... and no reaction to speak of. This is STARTING to change

Some also have zero Loyalty to the Country and see a massive revelation as the broken hinge to undo the society even.

First off, you have a very narrow understanding of loyalty to the country, as evidenced by you demonstrating this unbacked opinion.

I have DEEP support, so deep that I'm willing to get laughed at by people in order to save the country for collapsing under the weight of it's own corruption.... but to do that you need to point out and realize this corruption first before fixing it.

This BTW is a subliminal trait in UFO activists.

Not sure how we got into UFO's here... but I'm curious, can you source this.

In Fairness to the Conspiracy Regiment - I am the one who brought up WWE.

I still don't even know what it is, and don't care enough to find out.

I do believe the percentage of 9/11 topics there was higher, but as of now it's impossible to verify. The Moderator in Chief there was always mentioning some Civil action against someone, and it had several Hard Core Islamists on board so I concluded some outside force assisted it's demise.

It was of course a real Fruitcake land with one guy called Dives who would make BM look like a Junior ROTC participant.

I departed because it was just unreal, and the Anti Semitism was just too much.

And what was the point of bringing it up?? To say 'oh no, not you, just THESE truthers' need to be silenced?? Because I would react just as strongly no matter the group you aim to silence, even the bigots that deny the holocaust happened.

That's the way the freedom of speech works... as soon as you make ONE exception to the rule... well, it's done for everyone, it's only a matter of time. NOW is the time to be fighting to maintain our rights... even if you're going to accept that "terrorists hate our freedom" to give up our freedom is to concede defeat. Think about that. Terrorists won. By the very definition given, I mean, it's like 'terrorists want your money', if you give up the money then you've conceded defeat... same story.

Sorry you can't see that's what is going on.
 

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Well, from what I can gather he just admitted that this "Truth Business" is a 24/7 concern on his part which in his opinion appears to be altruistic. Now how many heavy discussions has he had with other even zanier Truthers???? Like the residue of the Larouche guys??? Did he convince them any , or calm them down just a bit ??
 

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Well, from what I can gather he just admitted that this "Truth Business" is a 24/7 concern on his part which in his opinion appears to be altruistic. Now how many heavy discussions has he had with other even zanier Truthers???? Like the residue of the Larouche guys??? Did he convince them any , or calm them down just a bit ??

I googled him; on another board Creative Dreams said he retired from discussing 911 too. Truthers cant tell the truth.
 

I_Gaze_At_The_Blue

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this is NOT a discussion on 9-11 this is a discussion about censorship.

Yet you still threw in specific arguments about 9/11 B'man ...

Yes yes... whatever... everything is out of context I know, unless it happens to agree with your position.... that's what I was getting sick of with the 9-11 debate.

B'man ... facts are facts, it has got nothing to do whether it "agrees" with my position, that is what you don't seem to get.

I cannot twist science to suit, so for things like the claims of bombs at the lobby levels of the Towers, despite eyewitness testimony (which CAN get taken out of context) there is NONE of the factual, scientific evidence of actual explosives NOR any sign of the uniques series of injuries associated with proximity to actual explosives.

That is NOT mine or anyone elses "opinion" ... it is a FACT !!!

Keep in mind that the NIST report was not written to refute crackpot truther conspiracies.

It was written for people who understand how to read it and who need to work with the findings when designing new buildings or updating existing buildings.

It is an engineering report written in engineering language ... but that is why it many refute it for it is easy to deny what you do not understand, easier than learning engineering or testing it against other engineers readings !!!

I"VE SAID FOR YEARS that debating the Pentagon attack was essentially a red herring issue... it didn't matter what really hit the pentagon,

Complete dodge ... for how can it not "matter" what hit, the whole premise of Da Twoof was is was not a plane, so how CAN it not "matter" ???

though I now honestly believe that it was the plane (or a repainted plane of similar design, as per operation northwoods). I engaged in these debates hoping that it would get resolved... and yes... I was actually HAPPY to have this issue reasonably confirmed and resolved...

Yes, but, lets keep it a conspiracy ... we'll just move the goalposts ... again !!!

Why can you people NEVER learn just how wrong you are ???

Contrary to your belief... I do NOT WANT to believe this stuff... but I, unlike yourself and others CANNOT simply 'dismiss' information that disagrees.

Maybe not conciously, but you are making mountains out of molehills mostly in regard to this.

This was a unique event, there is no benchmark by which to contrast and compare, so there are BOUND to be some things and anomolies which can not be fully explained, but overall that does not really matter, for there is more than ample other stuff that DOES explain the day.

B'man, just because you question the flickering tube does NOT make the tube wrong ... you are in danger of over analysing and interpreting minutiae that does nothing to detract from the whole.

A question is not proof of conspiracy ... and just because you personally have some "questions" regarding subjects you have no real education in or experience of does not mean you can therefore out-of-hand reject the acknowledged and respected analysis of those that DO have the necessary education and expertise to do so ... that is incredibly naive and unwarrantedly big-headed.

Why do people like you find the analysis of an architect, a theologian, a cold-fusion physicist, a chemist, a dental engineer, a water tester, a physics teacher MORE believable than the long term study and analysis of over 200 PhD level professionals whom do work DIRECTLY in the fields relevent to 9/11 ???

Why is Bazant, one of the most respected professional engineers on this planet, whom even has an engineering scaling law to his name, a man who can do engineering calculus equations in his sleep NOT as believable to you ... why does a theologian know more about sturctural failure than Bazant to you ???

Expertise DOES count ... and cannot be rejected for some unconversant claim of "fear for a career" nonsense !!!

I AM NOT making a big deal of it... I was pointing out the fact... but in your delusion you seem to think that facts are malleable to your opinions.

Wrong B'man ... facts are facts, I am not moulding Arabic names to suit my "opinion" ... they are difficult for Westerners to get right, and that can lead to confusion.

Mohamed Atta's full name was Mohamed Mohamed el-Amir Awad el-Sayed Atta, but you can use any of the individual bits.

Abdulaziz al-Omari (Flight11) can ALSO be used as Abdulaziz Alomari or Abdulaziz al-Umari.

Satam al-Suqami (Flight 11 and it was his passport and not Atta's found) is ALSO known as Satam Muhammed Abdel al-Suqami.

Marwan al-Shehhi (FLight 175) can ALSO be knowm as Marwan Yousef Mohamed Rashid Lekrab al-Shehhi AND Marwan Yusuf ash-Shehhi.

Fayez Rashid Ahmed Hassan al-Qadi Banihammad (Flight 175) can ALSO be written Fayaz Rashid 'Ahmad Hassan al-Qadi Bani Hammad.

Masculine Arabic Names

Muslim names ARE difficult to get right ... it was simple mistakes in either transliteration or that many of the hijackers may have commited identity theft.

" ...Investigators believe that some of the 19 suspected hijackers may have stolen the identities of law-abiding Middle Easterners, further complicating the probe"

FBI Chief Raises New Doubts Over Hijackers' Identities

You do release that it is possible for two people to have the same name, right ???

How many people share your name, say on Facebook, yet they are all unique individuals ... mistaken identity is possible !!!

Read the friggin quote if you care... only you would take a point where I say 'I don't know' and turn it into a lengthy diatribe to prove that I'm wrong... neglecting the fact that I cannot be 'Right' while claiming ignorance of the specific topic.

Again B'man, WHICH woman and WHICH quote ... this is the entire parapgraph you previously wrote ... there is NO information further to who this woman you are talking about is OR any quote ...

"Umm... first, it's all but proven that elements within the government DID know in advance of 9-11, for any and or all incompetence within government on 9-11 NOBODY was so much as demoted. The 'no plane hit the pentagon'... I"ll agree that this was some disinformation... BUT, the pentagon exacerbated this debate with it's handling of the issue... It was the BBC that reported a number of the hijackers as still alive. Never heard of the woman that was still alive... but if that case were proven, I don't see how this should be 'silenced'?? Finally, GWB knowing in advance... all you gotta do is look at what Bush did that day, and it makes it's own statements."

As I said before, we are not mind-readers and you are making points which cannot be responded to because it seems more the stream of conciousness which inside your head you "know" what it is you mean ... but us here do not !!!

So which woman and which quote ???

So, are you FOS or unaware :
- BBC NEWS | UK | England | Columnist arrested over 'race' speech
- BBC NEWS | UK | England | Oxfordshire | 'Gay' police horse case dropped (though this case was dropped because of lack of evidence... lucky for this guy the cop didn't have a camera)
- BBC NEWS | UK | England | Hate crime police raid 150 homes (though you'll defend this one.. because they throw in some legitimate arrests as well as the arrests made for making statements... then in a twist of irony they say "People should not have to go through life being subjected to abuse because of who they are or what they believe in.", but they should be arrested and charged if they happen to verbalize their thoughts)

B'man ... a couple of news reports regarding crime is NOT proof positive of the UK turning into a police state with rampant censorship.

Your first story was from 2002 ... EIGHT years ago !!!

Your second was FOUR years old and came to nothing !!!

Your third is also EIGHT years ago ... and was small scale ... from an original 90 people only 27 were subsequently arrested, with one for a RAPE charge.

Hardly an indication that the UK is rampant with stormtroopers and the populace live in eternal fear of arrest for nothing B'man. !!!

Or should criminals be able to get away with things because you mistakenly think there is a police state happening ... those people were NOT just making "statements" ... they were INCITING racial and homophobic hatred and attacks ???

There is a HUGE difference between freedom of speech and incitement B'man !!!

Because I not only read north american news, I also read news briefs from the UK, Australia, even from time to time I'll read news from the middle eastern sources... and well, you're not paying attention, maybe that while that you were making the UK a better place, you didn't realize that you were enabling this type of tyrannical system..

And I LIVE here ... somehow I think that trumps whatever news "briefs" you read !!!!

You're from the birthplace of the magna carta, the MODEL for freedom, and now you (culturally) spit on it in the name of 'safety' and to not be hurt by people's speech.

Way to go overboard here B'man ... NO-ONE, least of all me, thinks freedom of speech is to be spat on !!!

But there is a huge difference between speech and actions ... and calling you out for commenting OUTWITH real experience of my country is NOT spitting on anyones freedoms B'man ... some things you NEED some REAL understanding of before bumping your gums, please learn the distinctions between them !!!

Ya... like the BBC as you'll notice in those links...

Yes ... OLD news links ... yup, because that's surely an indication of rampant tyrannical system happening here and now !!!

Grow up B'man ... none of what you are saying is happening here ... it isn't !!!

A serious question have you ever travelled outside the US ... if not, again by what right do you claim to know better than those whom live in those places, and why are you not prepared to travel to see if it is as bad as you seem to think ???

Whatever, you didn't believe me when I told you about photographers being arrested for taking pictures of monuments... but you're probably going to 'deny' that that exists again... I WISH I could be like you and live in delusional thinking like you decide reality.

B'man ... how often do your links and sources turn out to be mountains made out of molehills ... something over nothing !!!

I cannot remember this, but if it was public monuments then there would be no problem, but if it was military then it would ... most countries have long-standing laws against photographing military objects, since the Cold War ... again hardly indicates a police state !!!

Photographers Access Rights and Limitations
 

I_Gaze_At_The_Blue

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I didn't mean LITERALLY preventing investigation... BUT when you're subtly saying "don't look at that, the investigation was good, sit down and shut up" You are enabling this atmosphere that prevents a new investigation from coming about... though, a proper investigation would require subpoena powers, something not given to any of the 'investigations', so it's not simply this...

B'man ... none of that matters, as said before NO-ONE is preventing truthers from doing anything ... and if you are so sure of your position then nothing we say can dissuade you from your stance.

You should be strong enough within your belief, like religious faith, that despite all and any contrary arguments you keep to it ... but that is why we get fed up with whiners like CD bleating about prevention.

We know we are right, nothing you say will ever change that, so we don't end up whining about anything you write ... that belongs to the twoof side ... possibly because deep, deep down inside of themselves they "know" their position is weak !!!

That's why I am asking... WHY are the debunkers BENT on telling people that everything is fine, don't investigate, we got all the answers...

We are not "bent" on anything, there is no agenda here ... it is a simple right is right and wrong is wrong.

To use my favourite stupid person, Rainbow Lady ... it isn't about debate or politics or opinions B'man ... she is just WRONG !!!

We do have all the scientific answers, they are unassailable ... it is only politically there should be contention, for the Bush Administration WERE remiss in not having a fuller inquiry into their own failures and ineptitude.

But I understand that ... it is human nature to not want to admit fault.

No-one likes to be shown weak and inefficient ... and that simple human flaw of psychology is the reason why they did not want further investigation of their own stupidity, arrogance and ineptitude ... NOT because they were covering up a grand conspiracy.

But because they were caught with their collective pants down !!!

9/11 was what it was ... an attack on the American people on American soil by OUTSIDE extremists ... for what possible reason could it not just be that ???

Truthers always say it was to give Bush power, and yet we are near 10 years later and Bush and Co, are no longer in power ... elections did NOT get suspended ... martial law was NOT declared.

And considering how much America has lost in expensive wars they cannot possibly win ... who gained anything really ???

when even BASICS like 'who got fired or demoted for their actions / inaction?', and other similar questions that, EVEN if we run with the fairy tale, SOMEONE probably along the lines screwed up enough to justify their losing their jobs...

But that is the reality of life ... throught history there has always been those whom caused problems palming them off whilst protecting themselves.

Unfair ... yes, immoral ... yes, but it has always, unfortuantely, been so.

Another flaw and indication of the selfishness of human nature, part of the whole survival of the fittest thing we still retain from caveman days.

Whilst our intellect may have taken us to the stars our emotions still lie very much with our ape-like ancestry.

Not a security screener that let 19 boxcutters onto various flights,

Erm, pre 9/11 you still could take things like that on board ... why do truthers seem to forget that ???

not an intelligence agent that failed to bring up intelligence issues,

You act as if information about the hijackers was ALL the infomation intelligence agencies had to deal with ... you do realise that there are thousands upon thousands of pieces of hundreds of jigsaws to look at ... it is much more difficult in the real world to look through than most people even realise.

"Spying Blind" goes into great detail of these bureaucratic shortcomings, but I doubt most twoofs would be interested, because it simply isn't exciting enough !!!

Amazon.com: Spying Blind: The CIA, the FBI, and the Origins of 9/11 (9780691120218): Amy B. Zegart: Books

not a NORAD officer telling the FAA that the hijack codes they were getting were part of a drill...

Erm, slight wee problem there B'man ... there were NO hijack codes ever sent !!!

See this is where you go so wrong B'man ... you put down stuff that is patently not real ... it is more as if you are just running with a thought than finding out beforehand if it is articulate information.

There is ample information telling that NO hijack code was ever sent, you have been writing about this for years, so you SHOULD automatically already know this !!!

When you write stuff like that it just shows us that you take your own thoughts as reality alone, without double-checking first ... and yet you accuse us of being opinion-based !!!

Do you not see this ???

I mean, SOMEONE failed at their job that day... and in other comparable situations people have been fired or demoted.

Yes, B'man the unfairness of it all rankles ... but that is life I am afraid !!!

Just a bunch of wanna be stalinists like USDA_racine suggesting that people should be arrested for engaging in such discussions...

But can you not understand the anger your beliefs generate ???

For 9/11 to be a conspiracy would require the participation of thousands, including those whom lost so much, such as the FDNY and victims families.

Even here on this forum there has been a poster whom was physically present and witnessed firsthand, even losing known collegues ... and yet people like you ... whom were NOT there and whom NEVER lost anyone are questioning "their" understanding.

And when called out respond negatively ... ergo, you ARE presuming to speak for them !!!

People like you are taking the words of Fire Fighters and "interpreting" them as to "mean" explosives ... BUT you have NEVER had either the moral courage or intellectual honesty to FIRSTLY go see them to ASK whether they actually meant bombs or was it just fear and confusion, and do they stand by that now.

BEFORE presuming to speak for others you should find out whether they even want you to FIRST.

Truthers always say they are showing respect for victims and families by trying to get justice for them in the form of another investigation, but has it ever even crossed your mind to ASK them if they need or want you to ???

Have you ever even thought about contacting the various families and survivors groups and asking their opinion and understanding and whether or not they support your contention of conspiracy ???

I'll take that as a big NO !!!

B'man, if the families and survivors AREN'T supporting you, what does that say about your contention and conspiracy claims ... because the real truth is the families, the survivors and the FDNY do NOT believe in conspiracy ... Fire Fightes get seriously angry at truthers ... does that not tell you something ... that maybe it is, in fact, YOU who is wrong ???

Here, contact them ... ask them whether YOUR understanding and claims are more right than theirs ... tell them of your noble quest on their behalf ... I am sure they will welcome you with open arms !!!

9/11 Families - Contact Us

9/11 Families - Support Groups

9/11 Families - Support Groups

VOICES of September 11th

Contact Us - Families of September 11

Contact Us

Contact WTC United

World Trade Center Survivors' Network

FDNY Online Memorial - Calendar

B'man considering that 9/11 really HAPPENED to them, do you not think it prudent and sensible to seek THEIR understanding FIRST ... before going hell-bent with your own ???

but more importantly because you got 'debunkers' going around deciding on reality...

Reality is what it is B'man ... and facts are facts !!!

The truther side is more than somewhat lacking in facts ... oh! supposition, possibilities and JAQing off aplenty ... not much in the way of unassailable facts though !!!

and beyond that, you're seemingly suggesting that 9-11 seekers of truth should be engaging in some sort of vigilante investigation in pursuit of justice... this shouldn't be necessary.

Oh! for Gods sake B'man, HOW am I suggesting any sort of "vigilante" anything ... I clearly and distinctly said that you are free to pursue investigation yourself, going to another country to commission a scientific investigation is NOT vigilantism ... requesting interviews with Fire Fighters is NOT vigilantism ... emailing people is NOT vigilantism ...

That you may get ignored or ridiculed is expected, for I am sure most of these people will have had that before ... but there are certainly PLENTY of public access sources of information with these peoples FULL words available, that you should not need personally contact them.

There are memorial sites and museums with many soruces of information available ... you could travel to New York and visit Ground Zero, there are plenty of citizens and groups willing to engage ... it is patent nonsense to claim I was advocating vigilante behaviour !!!

Deep down you know WHY the truth movement will NEVER even test its scientific claims out in the real world ... they would be destroyed, shown for the fakes and frauds they are !!!

Deep down you know this yet still try to deflect defensively ... for it is much easier and more self-satisfying to try put people like me down, than hold your own precious movement up to scrutiny ... that they have FAILED utterly to be competent or able is YOUR problem ... not ours ... you and your delighfully irrelevent little movement have been a failure, but rather than address that it is much more satisfying to argue against us.

No wonder Da Twoof has got precisely no-where ... too busy infighting and getting shirty and defensive on blogs and forums to actually DO anything !!!

As I pointed out in the earlier post, it's in the high 40% of people DO NOT KNOW about WTC7. They are STILL unaware...

So what ???

Why is it even important ???

It was an unoccupied building, cleared of people, which was severely damaged by a feckin' huge one falling on it, burned for hours and fell !!!

What is so important about that ???

Oh, ya. I'll just walk up to the pentagon and start flipping stones hoping to find something... you're being rediculous and you know it.

Sorry but, your the one being ridiculous here ... visiting the actual sites and finding people willing to talk is NOT akin to throwing stones.

That is childish and you know it ... no-one said anything like that B'man.

Your petualance is noted thought !!!
 
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I_Gaze_At_The_Blue

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No, it was from a history book about WW2, and I can't find a relevant link... so I'll just concede for you and point out King Edwards abdication...

Ah! B'man, but the way you wrote it infered it was current ... you never qualified it with a HISTORICAL context ... that is dishonest.

"Photo-ops" did not happen in the Edwardian era !!!

Besides Edward VIII was a spoilt and immature person, whose admiration and appeals of "appeasement" of Hitler was niave and simplistic, he did visit him in Obersalzberg giving full Nazi salutes which were photographed as well as reviewing SS troops ... but NOTHING with him supposedly shooting at his own.

uk_20_21_edward_8_ss_1937.jpg


Which afterwards resulted in him being shipped off to the Bahamas as Governer under orders of court-martial by Churchill, where he could do no more harm.

And considering that there is simply ZERO mention of this supposed "shooting at own troops" stunt anywhere, I will take it with the proverbial bucketload of salt it deserves ... not even on conspiracy sites can I find ANY mention of this ... were you just making it up or just believed a lie ???

Funny how conspiracy beliefs and suchlike require no true understanding of history, science and such beforehand.

But mostly B'man WHY is what some ancient dead old Royal maybe did years ago current to any part of these discussions ???

WHY did you even bring it up ... what does it show or prove ... except perhaps your own deep seated fears ... fear of even old history !!!
 
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