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Nonviolence vs. Islamic Terrorism

Gandhi>Bush

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This war creates death. This war creates hatred. This war creates radicals.

It is time for a new approach.

The Peace Corps was founded in 1961 as a way to fight communism in the third world. Each member was an "ambassador of freedom" representing America. I believe the Peace Corps to be a vital tool in the nonviolent campaign against the hatred of the Islamic world.

Liberating peoples? Great idea. Just stop blowing things up, and stop shooting people. You want to free someone? Good. Free Palestine. Free Chechnya. The political power in America could do much for both of these wills.

Fund moderate and pro-American Islamic groups.

If a country needs aid, give it to them. Offer more than money. Offer food. Offer feet on the ground.

Bin Laden's letter to America: Respond to it. Any propaganda at all: Respond to it. To beat the lies of an enemy you must clarify the problem and then ask his people to choose. If you are truly doing the right thing and the problem is brought to perfect clarity, people will always choose to do the right thing.

This a wholy new threat than anything America or any country has seen in it's history. The problem is not bin Laden. The problem is not terrorism. The problem is not terrorists. The problem is hatred and that is what we must solve.
 
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Agree.

Political change brought by the barrel of the gun very rarely succeeds.

Only by proposing non-violent solutions to the middle east conflict, pressuring Israel to respect the 1967 borders, and by allowing free trade between Islamic nations, can we ever hope to defeat Islamo-radicalism.

Bring people out of poverty, and win their hearts and minds!
 

VTA

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Australianlibertarian said:
Agree.

Political change brought by the barrel of the gun very rarely succeeds.
There are quite a few instances that contradict that statement.
Mind you, I don't say that as a proponent of violence but as the result of actual history. But back to the topic...

There are quite a few points of contention that have to be addressed and in doing so makes it evident that the end to all of this isn't quite so cut and dry.

To free Palestine is to displace all of the Israelis.
If you can ignore for a moment that they will die before leaving what they feel is their God-given right, where do they go? Who gets displaced for them? Do they just simply spread out and accept it?

Correct choices.
What is so hard about not killing others of a different religion and accepting them as a member of the worlds community?

It's an easy choice and one Extremists eschew...
They do not want a choice. They want an Islamic State.

In countries throughout the West, Churches, Synagogues and Mosques exist without either attempting to subjugate the other. In the Midddle and Far East, it's a completely different story...

This article is from some weeks ago and I don't readily have the link...

Three Indonesian girls beheaded
By Tim Johnston
BBC News, Jakarta

Three girls have been beheaded and another badly injured as they walked to a Christian school in Indonesia. They were walking through a cocoa plantation near the city of Poso in central Sulawesi province when they were attacked.

This is an area that has a long history of religious violence between Muslims and Christians. A government-brokered truce has only partially succeeded in reducing the number of incidents in recent years.



*Snip*


The fighting four years ago drew Islamic militants from all over Indonesia and many have never gone home. Analysts say the militants have targeted central Sulawesi and believe that it could be turned into the foundation stone of an Islamic state.

End.

There are many articles about the destructive attitude they have taken against other religions and followers of their own that don't obey it properly. It's a simple matter of choice indeed and they choose violence.

You're right bin Laden is not the problem, the problem is that he is the boogey man that everyone points to while largely ignoring obscure articles like the one above. Articles that reveal the nature of the people that this planet is afflicted with.

From the West to the Far East, extremists, in the name of Islam, are proving that they don't care for choice, peace or compromise. For many, compromise is viewed as a weakness.

On a mission of aid for the victims of the earthquake in the Pak/Kashmir area, it was reported that rocket propelled grenades were launched at U.S. helicopters. While it was poo-pooed by the locals, I'm willing to bet our military recognizes the difference between weapons of war and smoke from construction.

Did they choose peace? They chose to attempt to kill those bringing aid.

The underdog does not always enjoy a higher moral ground; because he doesn't have a superior power with which to institute his ideology does not make him just.

Funding moderates, etc...
To aid the moderates and Pro Americans publically is to expose them; the news is riddled with the deaths and assisination attempts against anyone who dares to 'cooperate with the Zionists'.

Like I said another time, there are far too many variables to get everyone on the same page of understanding and perspective. The cold fact is, some do not want peace. Violence is their language and violence is their Raison D'etre.

It's easy to push off their bad behaviour as our 'hatred of the Islamic world', but I'll a pose a question, a question to which I doubt anyone has an answer for, but I'll ask anyway:

When exactly was the last time a Mid-East country sponsored a peace summit? Called for any kind of peace accord?

This question, we all have the answer for:

What has always been the reaction of choice?

It's better to finally understand that the two together can not integrate.
We love our Democracy, they love their Shariah Law.
 
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128shot

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I just want to note.





South Korea and Japan don't have those problems...
 

VTA

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128shot said:
I just want to note.
South Korea and Japan don't have those problems...
An article prefaced by bin Laden quotes...
Japan, Korea new terror fronts
By Jamie Miyazaki

"They came out to fight Islam in the name of terrorism. Hundreds of thousands of people, young and old, were killed in the farthest point on Earth in Japan [in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. For them] this is not a crime, but rather a debatable issue. They bombed Iraq and considered that a debatable issue." - Osama bin Laden, Aljazeera, October 7, 2001

"Let the unjust ones know that we maintain our right to reply, at the appropriate time and place, to all the states that are taking part in this unjust war, particularly Britain, Spain, Australia, Poland, Japan, and Italy." - Osama bin Laden, Aljazeera, October 18, 2003

Last month's Aljazeera broadcast of a (probably month-old) recording by Osama bin Laden warning of attacks "at the appropriate time and place" on the United Kingdom, Italy, Australia, Spain, Poland and, for the first time, Japan heralded one of the bloodiest Ramadans on record. Twenty-six days after bin Laden's broadcast, 19 Italian Caribinieri were dead in Nasiriya. And on Thursday this week, the British consulate and the UK's biggest bank, HSBC, suffered devastating attacks in Istanbul.

*Snip*

Even Seoul, which has not been explicitly mentioned in any recent statements by jihadis, faced a credible terrorist threat when its embassy in Kabul was evacuated on Thursday after receiving intelligence reports that its diplomatic mission was being targeted.

Park Jong-soon, the South Korean ambassador to Afghanistan, said in an interview to the Chosun Ilbo newspaper, "Although al-Qaeda has aimed to conduct terror attack on Western embassies and Westerners, it was the first time the group directly pointed to a certain country's embassy as its target ... Unlike the other 20 embassies, our embassy is located in a residential quarter." Moreover, South Koreans in Iraq have also been targeted by insurgents. A South Korean diplomat in Iraq was recently kidnapped and told to leave the country before being released. And on Friday there were reports that a Baghdad hotel in which Korean officials were staying was hit.

*End of article*

As it stands now, Muslim extremists are running amuck in Thailand and Indonesia(who I believe have taken no part in the Iraq war) and it's probably just a matter of inconvenience that they are not everywhere, but their actions where they are speaks volumes about what kind life they choose.
 

128shot

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I thought you ment religious oppression, not fundamentalist threats...



my mix up.
 

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Australianlibertarian said:
Agree.

Political change brought by the barrel of the gun very rarely succeeds.
Actually, change with the barrel of a gun succeeds the most.

Iraq invasion, American Revolution, Unification of Germany(1870 one). And many, many more were done forcibly.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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Comrade Brian said:
Actually, change with the barrel of a gun succeeds the most.

Iraq invasion,
Ahh, yes. Iraq: A shining example of peace and prosperity brought out of murder.

American Revolution,
The violence caused here led directly to the War of 1812.

Unification of Germany(1870 one). And many, many more were done forcibly.
And after the violent Unification of Germany did Germany remain a place of peace? A place where unity will remain and no more violence will be needed?
 

Gandhi>Bush

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VTA said:
To free Palestine is to displace all of the Israelis.
If you can ignore for a moment that they will die before leaving what they feel is their God-given right, where do they go? Who gets displaced for them? Do they just simply spread out and accept it?
While that is nearly exactly what happened to the Palestinians, that is not a course I recommend. Stop calling Israel the Jewish homeland. Let it simply be a homeland. Let not citizenship rest on one ethic descent and/or religious affiliation. Stop treating the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza like prisoners who require a pass to move about a country. Stop mistreating them.

It's an easy choice and one Extremists eschew...
They do not want a choice. They want an Islamic State.
Wherever you bring injustice, inequality, and voilence, extremism and radicalism will come with it.

There are many articles about the destructive attitude they have taken against other religions and followers of their own that don't obey it properly. It's a simple matter of choice indeed and they choose violence.
They know of nothing else. If you believe that violence is the only way to change things, if you have seen nothing else create progress, if violence is all you have learned, then you will resort to violence. I believe that merely reaching out to create a positive change in a wholy new way in the Middle East would be good for creating peace there. All we have to do is show success in a new way. This conflict will be resolved only when we win the hearts of people and destroy their hatred rather than destroying their homes, their transgressors and members of their society.

You're right bin Laden is not the problem, the problem is that he is the boogey man that everyone points to while largely ignoring obscure articles like the one above. Articles that reveal the nature of the people that this planet is afflicted with.
We are alike in thinking that hatred such as this is an affliction. Do we agree that it can be cured?

From the West to the Far East, extremists, in the name of Islam, are proving that they don't care for choice, peace or compromise. For many, compromise is viewed as a weakness.
Where is comprimise viewed as weakness?

On a mission of aid for the victims of the earthquake in the Pak/Kashmir area, it was reported that rocket propelled grenades were launched at U.S. helicopters. While it was poo-pooed by the locals, I'm willing to bet our military recognizes the difference between weapons of war and smoke from construction.

Did they choose peace? They chose to attempt to kill those bringing aid.
That is the cost of fueling hatred. When you fuel hatred it will cost more to destroy it. If they will shoot the helicopters that come to bring them aid, we should send more helicopters and send more aid. The reason the nonviolent Civil Rights movement was so successful was because of all of the Martyrs that died and were wounded in riots and Klan meetings. Members of that movement showed they were on the side of the good, and these men that would murder children are evil. And after you have clarified the situation beyond race and beyond religion, you will see not the sides of white and black but the sides of good and evil.

Like I said another time, there are far too many variables to get everyone on the same page of understanding and perspective. The cold fact is, some do not want peace. Violence is their language and violence is their Raison D'etre.
There is a reason for all violence and there is a reason for every lack of peace. And there is a common thread within all men that desires peace that desires life over death, and that is where we must find unity.

What has always been the reaction of choice?
What was the reaction of choice of America when it was hit on 9/11?
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
This war creates death. This war creates hatred. This war creates radicals.

Then the terrorist need to stop targeting and killing civilians

Gandhi>Bush said:
It is time for a new approach.

The Peace Corps was founded in 1961 as a way to fight communism in the third world. Each member was an "ambassador of freedom" representing America. I believe the Peace Corps to be a vital tool in the nonviolent campaign against the hatred of the Islamic world.

What happens when all the peace corp people are all dead? Because the complete and utter truth is that they (Terrorist) don't mind killing innocent unarmed people. They seem to prove that on an almost daily basis.


Gandhi>Bush said:
Liberating peoples? Great idea. Just stop blowing things up, and stop shooting people. You want to free someone? Good. Free Palestine. Free Chechnya. The political power in America could do much for both of these wills.

And leave the iraqi people? And if they would stop detonating there home made martry bombs a lot less things would get blown up.

Gandhi>Bush said:
If a country needs aid, give it to them. Offer more than money. Offer food. Offer feet on the ground.

When they stop killing people is when we think about giving them anything. If we are not going to fight these terrorist. Then we pull out. We pull everything out. Our money our aid our industry our technology our support. We leave them to there own devices until they either prosper or crach and burn. My bet is on the latter though.



Gandhi>Bush said:
Bin Laden's letter to America: Respond to it. Any propaganda at all: Respond to it. To beat the lies of an enemy you must clarify the problem and then ask his people to choose. If you are truly doing the right thing and the problem is brought to perfect clarity, people will always choose to do the right thing.

The people have chosen. They have chosen to do nothing. They have chosen to be led around and to be turned into human bombs. Either through brianwashing or lack of sense. But there lack of any real uprising against the ones bastardizing there religion to the rest of the world.

Gandhi>Bush said:
This a wholy new threat than anything America or any country has seen in it's history. The problem is not bin Laden. The problem is not terrorism. The problem is not terrorists. The problem is hatred and that is what we must solve.
Bin laden and the terrorist are purveyors of that hate. Dealing it to all that will listen and to any that have no choice.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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Calm2Chaos said:
Then the terrorist need to stop targeting and killing civilians
I completely agree. What does this have to do with the erroneous response from America?

What happens when all the peace corp people are all dead? Because the complete and utter truth is that they (Terrorist) don't mind killing innocent unarmed people. They seem to prove that on an almost daily basis.
Terrorists come from people. People that any military action will alienate and radicalize. The Peace Corps would not do that. Nonviolent resistance takes strength and sacrifice, more so than any man who resorts to violence. I'm not saying that the men and women of the Peace Corps, wouldn't be targeted at all, but I'm saying over time as the problem and situation is clarified the threat would be alleviated. Terrorists are made from people. Pissed off people. The Peace Corps would go a long way for these people to not get pissed off at Americans as they are doing nothing more than feeding their people and housing their orphans, building Mosques and schools and teaching. You can hate a man for what you think that he is only until you are shown he is something else.

And leave the iraqi people?
With as much as we've done to Iraq and it's infrastructure leaving them isn't an option. We must stay and we must fix the situation to the best of our ability.

And if they would stop detonating there home made martry bombs a lot less things would get blown up.
You're looking at the surface. What does it take for a man to strap a bomb to his chest and detonate it in an attempt to murder people?

When they stop killing people is when we think about giving them anything. If we are not going to fight these terrorist. Then we pull out. We pull everything out. Our money our aid our industry our technology our support. We leave them to there own devices until they either prosper or crach and burn. My bet is on the latter though.
Surely that will end the hatred of America, extreme indifference.

The people have chosen. They have chosen to do nothing. They have chosen to be led around and to be turned into human bombs. Either through brianwashing or lack of sense. But there lack of any real uprising against the ones bastardizing there religion to the rest of the world.
Not all of these people choose such things, but that being said, I will direct my response with "they" being those that are indifferent to terrorism.

The people have chosen to not resist something they believe to be good. They have chosen to not resist what they believe to be the solution to their problem. That is why you clarify the situation. Violence pollutes what is right and what is wrong. Nonviolence cleans it up and creates an understanding of the issue. Who is the good guy and who is the bad guy? Who is helping us and who is hurting us? Make it clear.

Bin laden and the terrorist are purveyors of that hate. Dealing it to all that will listen and to any that have no choice.
They use the confusion of this situation to their advantage. It's easy to convince someone that we are their enemy because of how alienated many feel either toward Israel, America, or the West in general and of becasue of how murky the situation is.

Clarify.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
I completely agree. What does this have to do with the erroneous response from America?

Fighting them there or fighting them here. Either way but you are going to have to fight them. No attacks on US soil since this has started. It's taken them years to accumulate 2000 US lives whereas it took them 19 minutes to accumulate 3000+ prior.

Gandhi>Bush said:
Terrorists come from people. People that any military action will alienate and radicalize. The Peace Corps would not do that. Nonviolent resistance takes strength and sacrifice, more so than any man who resorts to violence. I'm not saying that the men and women of the Peace Corps, wouldn't be targeted at all, but I'm saying over time as the problem and situation is clarified the threat would be alleviated. Terrorists are made from people. Pissed off people. The Peace Corps would go a long way for these people to not get pissed off at Americans as they are doing nothing more than feeding their people and housing their orphans, building Mosques and schools and teaching. You can hate a man for what you think that he is only until you are shown he is something else.

Hope you have 250,000 voluntary martrys. Because thats exactly what there going to be. They are going to be canon fodder and target practice for the friendly neighborhood bombing squad. They will be blown up, executed, burned and or decapitated. And as this is happening there will be nothing and no one to help them help the people killing them.


Gandhi>Bush said:
With as much as we've done to Iraq and it's infrastructure leaving them isn't an option. We must stay and we must fix the situation to the best of our ability.

That infrastucture was a whole hell of a lot worse before we got there . With the amount of schools and medical facilities going up in iraq. Power sub stations and water facilities. There infrastructure is going to be in amazing shape much better then when we arrived and far better then it would have ever been without us


Gandhi>Bush said:
You're looking at the surface. What does it take for a man to strap a bomb to his chest and detonate it in an attempt to murder people?

Don't have time to worry about it, i'm dodging shrapnel. But the first in this respect would be stupidity and religious fervour and fanatacism. The rest is just window dressing so they can kill the infidels. How about this.

How about this, they (terrorsit, sympathizers, aiders,fundraisers,trainers,martrys) Raise there hands and come out of hiding. release the people of this country from there grip so they can move on with there lives in a hopefully better manner. Give those people 2 years of no violence, and a say in the manner in which they live. This will be given to them in part by us, and in part by themselves. Then ask them if they want there current life or the lives given to them by the terrorist? The only people continuing this war is the terrorist. And if they are fighting for the people lets see what the people want.


Gandhi>Bush said:
Surely that will end the hatred of America, extreme indifference.

I don't care if it ends there hatred of the US. I am not in a popularity contest. I don't care if the animals like me or not. You get treated how you act. I am not going to give them anything. This does one thing and one thing only and that is show them that there terroristr tactics work. So the next time they want something they go back to killing children and blowing up restaurants.


Gandhi>Bush said:
Not all of these people choose such things, but that being said, I will direct my response with "they" being those that are indifferent to terrorism.

The people have chosen to not resist something they believe to be good. They have chosen to not resist what they believe to be the solution to their problem. That is why you clarify the situation. Violence pollutes what is right and what is wrong. Nonviolence cleans it up and creates an understanding of the issue. Who is the good guy and who is the bad guy? Who is helping us and who is hurting us? Make it clear.

If they have chosen not to resist terrorism that makes them terrorist or at the very least sympathizers. And if killing children and blowing up innocent civilians is the way they see to correct the problem. I really see no redeaming value for them and they need to end....quickly. If you have that little respect for innocent life I can't muster any for them


Gandhi>Bush said:
They use the confusion of this situation to their advantage. It's easy to convince someone that we are their enemy because of how alienated many feel either toward Israel, America, or the West in general and of becasue of how murky the situation is.

Clarify.
Agaiin... they are condoning the killing of children and the innocent. They are bastardizing there religion and soaking there o so important quran in the blood of thousands of innocent men woman and children. And in there twited way they see this as serving there god.
 

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Calm2Chaos said:
Fighting them there or fighting them here. Either way but you are going to have to fight them. No attacks on US soil since this has started. It's taken them years to accumulate 2000 US lives whereas it took them 19 minutes to accumulate 3000+ prior.
It took 8 years between the 1993 Trade center bombing and 9/11 to attack US soil. What makes you think they could have if they wanted to?

Hope you have 250,000 voluntary martrys. Because thats exactly what there going to be. They are going to be canon fodder and target practice for the friendly neighborhood bombing squad. They will be blown up, executed, burned and or decapitated. And as this is happening there will be nothing and no one to help them help the people killing them.
I don't think I would need that much. If the US took the approach that I mentioned above, especially in respect to their feelings about Palestinians and Chechnyans, that gesture alone would along way to squash the hatred out of the Islamic world. I don't if you've ever been in this position, but when a man you hate(or even dislike for that matter) does something nice for you dispite how you feel about him, it makes you think if only just for a second. They whole-heartedly believe that we are their enemy. We can break that by simply NOT BEING THEIR ENEMY. By voicing our dissapproval of Israel's prison like treatment of the Palestinians, by voicing our dissapproval of Russian aggressions toward Chechnyans that want independence from Russia, that would be an extreme moment of clarity for the Islamic world. They could see Americans in a positive light rather than a Western Devil/Tyrant.

That infrastucture was a whole hell of a lot worse before we got there . With the amount of schools and medical facilities going up in iraq. Power sub stations and water facilities. There infrastructure is going to be in amazing shape much better then when we arrived and far better then it would have ever been without us
I don't doubt it. The problem is all of that is buried underneath the word WAR.

Don't have time to worry about it, i'm dodging shrapnel.
Don't be silly. You're not dodging shrapnel any more than I'm being a martyr.

But the first in this respect would be stupidity and religious fervour and fanatacism. The rest is just window dressing so they can kill the infidels.
Learn about the Islamic religion. War is only justified if you are attacked first, and you are to stop fighting if at any time one stops fighting you or asks for forgiveness. I'm not even asking for you to apologize. The problem in this conflict is not in a religion.

How about this, they (terrorsit, sympathizers, aiders,fundraisers,trainers,martrys) Raise there hands and come out of hiding. release the people of this country from there grip so they can move on with there lives in a hopefully better manner. Give those people 2 years of no violence, and a say in the manner in which they live. This will be given to them in part by us, and in part by themselves. Then ask them if they want there current life or the lives given to them by the terrorist? The only people continuing this war is the terrorist. And if they are fighting for the people lets see what the people want.
I can't understand what you're saying here. Can you rephrase?

I don't care if it ends there hatred of the US. I am not in a popularity contest. I don't care if the animals like me or not. You get treated how you act. I am not going to give them anything. This does one thing and one thing only and that is show them that there terroristr tactics work. So the next time they want something they go back to killing children and blowing up restaurants.
I'm sorry if you're not in a popularity contest, but this is exactly what this is. Either you're going to win or hatred is going to win.

I'm not suggesting you give the terrorists what they want. Give the people in the Middle East what they need, and what they deserve. Right an injustice for them. STOP BEING THEIR ENEMY. You get treated how you act. If you support Israel's treatment of the Palestinians or are indifferent to it, don't be angry when various Middle Eastern people are supportive of 9/11 or indifferent to it.

If they have chosen not to resist terrorism that makes them terrorist or at the very least sympathizers. And if killing children and blowing up innocent civilians is the way they see to correct the problem. I really see no redeaming value for them and they need to end....quickly. If you have that little respect for innocent life I can't muster any for them
That's why nonviolence is difficult. To love your enemy is not the action of someone who is emotionally or spiritually weak.

Agaiin... they are condoning the killing of children and the innocent. They are bastardizing there religion and soaking there o so important quran in the blood of thousands of innocent men woman and children. And in there twited way they see this as serving there god.
They kill because they look at history and see that this how you change things. War. You have to proove them wrong. You have to show them that there are other ways. Currently the US is merely showing them that this is the way you change things and that the US is better at it than they are.
 

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YA think someday we may actually agree on something? LOL


Gandhi>Bush said:
It took 8 years between the 1993 Trade center bombing and 9/11 to attack US soil. What makes you think they could have if they wanted to?



They had active on going cells throughout that period. If Clinton would have listened to Able Danger then, we probably wouldn't be here in the first place. That of course is conjecture ad I have no real proof we wouldn't still be at war. But I think the odds would have definetly been different.


Gandhi>Bush said:
I don't think I would need that much. If the US took the approach that I mentioned above, especially in respect to their feelings about Palestinians and Chechnyans, that gesture alone would along way to squash the hatred out of the Islamic world. I don't if you've ever been in this position, but when a man you hate(or even dislike for that matter) does something nice for you dispite how you feel about him, it makes you think if only just for a second. They whole-heartedly believe that we are their enemy. We can break that by simply NOT BEING THEIR ENEMY. By voicing our dissapproval of Israel's prison like treatment of the Palestinians, by voicing our dissapproval of Russian aggressions toward Chechnyans that want independence from Russia, that would be an extreme moment of clarity for the Islamic world. They could see Americans in a positive light rather than a Western Devil/Tyrant.


This is were we definetly go astray. Because I think you would be sacrificing a lot of men and woman before there was anykind of real change. And I don't know if your going to be able to get many people wiling to go on suicide missions.

Gandhi>Bush said:
I don't doubt it. The problem is all of that is buried underneath the word WAR.

Maybe... But in the end it's going to be better for the iraqi people.


Gandhi>Bush said:
Don't be silly. You're not dodging shrapnel any more than I'm being a martyr.

I was being sarcastic. It was a metaphor...LOL


Gandhi>Bush said:
Learn about the Islamic religion. War is only justified if you are attacked first, and you are to stop fighting if at any time one stops fighting you or asks for forgiveness. I'm not even asking for you to apologize. The problem in this conflict is not in a religion.

In its purest form this may be true. But in it's present form it is not. They are TARGETING woman and children. They are going after the innocent in martry bombings all over the world. What US attack caused either the WTC attacks or the USS Cole. Sorry but finding passages within the quran calling for death is just as easy as finding a few for peace. Actions are what is truly telling


Gandhi>Bush said:
I can't understand what you're saying here. Can you rephrase?



I don't understand who or what you think there fighting for. If it's the people there fighting for. Then give them a shot at something better. Give them a couple years of no violence and a hand in the way there lives will be run. If they don't want this after a couple years they can go back to being oppressed if they want


Gandhi>Bush said:
I'm sorry if you're not in a popularity contest, but this is exactly what this is. Either you're going to win or hatred is going to win.

Hatred is going to be present always. Human nature is aggresive, and aggression is going to always win out given time and the right circumstances.


Gandhi>Bush said:
I'm not suggesting you give the terrorists what they want. Give the people in the Middle East what they need, and what they deserve. Right an injustice for them. STOP BEING THEIR ENEMY. You get treated how you act. If you support Israel's treatment of the Palestinians or are indifferent to it, don't be angry when various Middle Eastern people are supportive of 9/11 or indifferent to it.

They can support 9/11 and thats there right I guess. But until the suicide bombs stop and the senseless killings. There is going to be no peace in this region. And until these stop there should be no aid, there should be help. You need to eradicate the cancer before you can heal the body


Gandhi>Bush said:
They kill because they look at history and see that this how you change things. War. You have to proove them wrong. You have to show them that there are other ways. Currently the US is merely showing them that this is the way you change things and that the US is better at it than they are.
I don't think your dealing with a group of politically pissed off people. I just don't get the feel that this is a war of political values for them. It's a war of religion and beliefs. Yes politics may play a small part in it. BUt I just am not seeing this huge political outpouring for change. I am seeing a religious outpouring for death. If it was political then why has there been no attempt by these people to halt the aggression heaped on the civilian population?
 

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Calm2Chaos said:
They had active on going cells throughout that period. If Clinton would have listened to Able Danger then, we probably wouldn't be here in the first place. That of course is conjecture ad I have no real proof we wouldn't still be at war. But I think the odds would have definetly been different.
Now is not the time to place blame on someone or to speak about what could have been done. We must act now.

Regardless of "active on going cells" their were no attacks on American soil for 8 years and now it's been about 4 since 9/11.

This is were we definetly go astray. Because I think you would be sacrificing a lot of men and woman before there was anykind of real change. And I don't know if your going to be able to get many people wiling to go on suicide missions.
Being against segregation of schools and actively protesting the treatment of African Americans during the 1950s and 60s was once a suicide mission. All you need is a commitment and you need to convince people that sacrifice is necessary for peace. It has been done all throughout history, mostly in the wrong ways I might add. Convince people that something is worth dying for is easy.

Maybe... But in the end it's going to be better for the iraqi people.
In the end the people of the Middle East aren't going to see that. They feel alienated and in the end aggressions toward both Iraq and Afghanistan has created more terrorists.

In its purest form this may be true. But in it's present form it is not. They are TARGETING woman and children. They are going after the innocent in martry bombings all over the world. What US attack caused either the WTC attacks or the USS Cole. Sorry but finding passages within the quran calling for death is just as easy as finding a few for peace. Actions are what is truly telling
Find me in the Quran where it says to fly a plane into a building or senselessly kill people for absolutely no reason and I'll give you a billion dollars. I do agree with what you say about actions being truly telling, but I don't think the actions of a few respect the feelings of the whole.

I don't understand who or what you think there fighting for. If it's the people there fighting for. Then give them a shot at something better. Give them a couple years of no violence and a hand in the way there lives will be run. If they don't want this after a couple years they can go back to being oppressed if they want
I think I'm still missing what you're trying to say. Who is "they"?

It's not that simple. They feel they are oppressed by the West and Israel and Russia, so they fight. If you recommend putting an end to that, I agree.

Hatred is going to be present always. Human nature is aggresive, and aggression is going to always win out given time and the right circumstances.
This kind of hatred will not always be present. Tell me what you hate. And by hate I don't mean, I hate listening to Nsync. I mean:

Calm2Chaos hates _________ :: Usama bin Laden hates America.

I know I don't hate anything that much.

They can support 9/11 and thats there right I guess. But until the suicide bombs stop and the senseless killings. There is going to be no peace in this region. And until these stop there should be no aid, there should be help. You need to eradicate the cancer before you can heal the body.
Okay let's pretend that the Middle East is a body and the extreme hatred of the West is a cancer. Can you remove the cancer of the lung by stabbing the body until it feels better or do you have to anesthesize the body, plan the operation, make a careful cut to open up the torso, carefully cut a hole to the cancerous part of the lung, and cautiosly excise the tumor?

I don't think your dealing with a group of politically pissed off people. I just don't get the feel that this is a war of political values for them. It's a war of religion and beliefs. Yes politics may play a small part in it. BUt I just am not seeing this huge political outpouring for change. I am seeing a religious outpouring for death. If it was political then why has there been no attempt by these people to halt the aggression heaped on the civilian population?
I think it's a matter of life sucks over there for many reasons and it's easy to blame the West because A. Life doesn't suck here B. We all seem really really happy and free(people of the ME aren't) C. We support Israel and many other oppressive regimes in the ME.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
It is time for a new approach. The Peace Corps was founded in 1961 as a way to fight communism in the third world. Each member was an "ambassador of freedom" representing America. I believe the Peace Corps to be a vital tool in the nonviolent campaign against the hatred of the Islamic world.
Not a bad idea if it could be implimented... but it cannot. Go to the Peace Corps web site and see for yourself. If I remember correctly, the only Arab/Muslim ME/NA country that will accept Peace Corps volunteers is Morocco. Even Egypt, the recipient of billions in US aid refuses. You see, no Arab dictator wants Yanks running around on their turf promoting quaint ideals such as democracy etc.

Go ahead G>B... take the plunge: www.peacecorps.gov/

Gandhi>Bush said:
Stop calling Israel the Jewish homeland. Let it simply be a homeland. Let not citizenship rest on one ethic descent and/or religious affiliation. Stop treating the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza like prisoners who require a pass to move about a country. Stop mistreating them.
Israel is not the Jewish homeland? Where would that be then? Ur? Canaan? Babylon? Since you proclaim such things while sitting in the comfort of your own homeland, please be kind enough to tell me where my homeland is then if it is not Eretz Yisrael.

When the Palestinians stop firing Qassam rockets at schools and suicide-bombing pizza parlors, the resultant mistreatement will also cease. You seem to conveniently forget that despite Israel's complete withdrawal from Gaza, the rocket attacks from Gaza and suicide-bombings against Israeli citizens continue unabated. The Palestinians are indeed prisoners... prisoners of their own device.



 

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Tashah said:
Not a bad idea if it could be implimented... but it cannot. Go to the Peace Corps web site and see for yourself. If I remember correctly, the only Arab/Muslim ME/NA country that will accept Peace Corps volunteers is Morocco. Even Egypt, the recipient of billions in US aid refuses. You see, no Arab dictator wants Yanks running around on their turf promoting quaint ideals such as democracy etc.

Go ahead G>B... take the plunge: www.peacecorps.gov/
I'm aware of the Peace Corps' locations and abilities. I'm signed up for their newsletter and I do indeed intend on enlisting after college.

Do you think the US has the political means to get the Peace Corps into certain coutries? Afghanistan and Iraq certainly and who knows where else if we really applied our resources to the task.

Israel is not the Jewish homeland? Where would that be then? Ur? Canaan? Babylon? Since you proclaim such things while sitting in the comfort of your own homeland, please be kind enough to tell me where my homeland is then if it is not Eretz Yisrael.
I don't wish to offend anyone with my remarks, but from my understanding of the creation of Israel it was done by the out of, if I may be direct, pity because of the rise and actions of the growing trend of anti-semitism in Europe. As I see, as many would see it, the land was stolen from Palestinians after WWI and certainly after WWII with the partition. I feel that this is quite an injustice to the Palestinian people, and leads directly to radical tendencies. The state of Arabs in the early 20th century was one of enlightenment (nor is it really one today), so naturally the only response that occured was violent and radical and extreme.

I do not feel sore about people protecting Israel after everyone in the Middle East closed in on them upon it's admittance to the UN, but I do think that such an action should have been a surprise. To be frank, it pissed alot of people off.

Let state here that my proposal for Israel (not that I have one) is not to displace the Jews from the land.

When the Palestinians stop firing Qassam rockets at schools and suicide-bombing pizza parlors, the resultant mistreatement will also cease. You seem to conveniently forget that despite Israel's complete withdrawal from Gaza, the rocket attacks from Gaza and suicide-bombings against Israeli citizens continue unabated. The Palestinians are indeed prisoners... prisoners of their own device.
Do you think that the hatred that exists within the Palestinians is something that can be defeated by more injustice? Do you think that keeping them as prisoners within their own land is something that will stop the will to fire rockets in to Israel.

I'm not going to sit here and say that I believe that a complete withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank would result in peace and prosperity between Palestinians and Israel, but I will say that it must happen. There will be extremists that believe that Israel "should be wiped off the map", but all in all withdrawaling would nearly end the recruitment lines of terrorists. The only way to end the hatred between Palestinians and Israelis, or any hatred for that matter, is nonviolence.
 

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Come on guys, I'm writing a paper over this so I need some more input/discussion. Don't make it that easy on the hippy...
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
I'm aware of the Peace Corps' locations and abilities. I'm signed up for their newsletter and I do indeed intend on enlisting after college.

Do you think the US has the political means to get the Peace Corps into certain coutries? Afghanistan and Iraq certainly and who knows where else if we really applied our resources to the task.
I've looked into this avenue myself and keep abreast of new opportunities. Since Afghanistan and Iraq are militarily occupied, they will comply if the issue is pressed. As for the others... don't hold your breath waiting for the 'We love America' rapture.

Gandhi>Bush said:
I don't wish to offend anyone with my remarks, but from my understanding of the creation of Israel it was done by the out of, if I may be direct, pity because of the rise and actions of the growing trend of anti-semitism in Europe. As I see, as many would see it, the land was stolen from Palestinians after WWI and certainly after WWII with the partition. I feel that this is quite an injustice to the Palestinian people, and leads directly to radical tendencies. The state of Arabs in the early 20th century was one of enlightenment (nor is it really one today), so naturally the only response that occured was violent and radical and extreme.
Then your understandings and mine are radically different. Jews have been in Israel since the partiarch Abraham. Israel's territorial integrity was lost to the conquest of empires, i.e.. Roman, Christian, and Muslim. We didn't steal anything, we have been here since antiquity and it is indeed our homeland. I always find it strange how you liberals love the UN except for the explicit UN Resolution that restored the territorial and cultural integrity of Israel. From my point of view, the Land of Israel was incrementally stolen by historical empires, Muslim conquest, and the caprice of western colonialism.

Gandhi>Bush said:
I do not feel sore about people protecting Israel after everyone in the Middle East closed in on them upon it's admittance to the UN, but I do think that such an action should have been a surprise. To be frank, it pissed alot of people off.
Let me in turn be perfectly frank. Out of a whole globe of available candidates, you only see fit to explicitly single out Israel for indictment and castigation. Mistreatment of people? Perhaps you should attend to your own messy house before throwing your incriminating stones. Do these examples ring any alarm bells? Native Indians. African Slavery. Mexico and Central America. Mormons. Resource exploitation. Gunboat diplomacy. McCarthyism. Japanese internment. Guantanimo. Abu Gharaib. CIA renditions. Iraq.

That's only a miniscule tally of your mistreatments... not to mention a whole globe full of regimes that murder, rape, torture, and exterminate as we speak. And you dare to single out Israel? Have you no decency?

Gandhi>Bush said:
Let state here that my proposal for Israel (not that I have one) is not to displace the Jews from the land. Do you think that the hatred that exists within the Palestinians is something that can be defeated by more injustice? Do you think that keeping them as prisoners within their own land is something that will stop the will to fire rockets in to Israel.
Israel is not their land... and Israel is not going anywhere. If Palestinians loathe being treated like prisoners, then they should cease acting like criminals.

Gandhi>Bush said:
I'm not going to sit here and say that I believe that a complete withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank would result in peace and prosperity between Palestinians and Israel, but I will say that it must happen. There will be extremists that believe that Israel "should be wiped off the map", but all in all withdrawaling would nearly end the recruitment lines of terrorists. The only way to end the hatred between Palestinians and Israelis, or any hatred for that matter, is nonviolence.
Israel has totally withdrawn from Gaza. Per Samaria and Judea (the West Bank), I personally envision and entertain no further Israeli withdrawal. The Palestinians gambled everything when they joined with the invasion armies, and they lost the 'push Israel into the sea' gambit. They sought nothing less than the cessation and extermination of Israel. When you lose a gambit of this horiffic magnitude... a correlating price is extracted. I will say this as plainly as possible Gandhi>Bush. Israel will return the West Bank to Jordan when the United States returns Texas to Mexico.

Per your ideology of a non-violent global rehabilitation ... this scenario can only work if EVERYONE agrees to work within the confines of this parameter. Even India, the homeland of Gandhi, realizes that a viable ideology utilized in a domestic arena does not translate internationally... as there are too many global actors who embrace an expansionist agenda and revel in violence and bloodshed. Perhaps your utopian dream will someday become a reality. But until that horizon dawns upon mankind, those of us who cherish our homeland will do what we must to keep the barbarians from the gates.



 
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Tashah said:
Then your understandings and mine are radically different. Jews have been in Israel since the partiarch Abraham. Israel's territorial integrity was lost to the conquest of empires, i.e.. Roman, Christian, and Muslim. We didn't steal anything, we have been here since antiquity and it is indeed our homeland. It's always find it strange how you liberals love the UN except for the explicit UN Resolution that restored the territorial and cultural integrity of Israel. From my point of view, the Land of Israel was incrementally stolen by historical empires, Muslim conquest, and the caprice of western colonialism.
Hahaha-Excellent point! Liberals always praise the UN except when it doesn't suit their purpose. The UN is about as useless as two turds on Osama Bin Laden's turban. They don't have to the power to do jackshit. Saddam violated their sanctions over and over again and yet not one European country had the balls to go do something about it. We don't need the UN, we can all get along fine without it.

I do agree that the Jews have a right to call Israel their homeland because they have, in fact, been there for a very long time now. The Muslims have shown that they're about as trustworthy as a rattlesnake (not all Muslims but some of the Muslim countries, so I feel safer with the Holy Land being in their hands than in the Muslim's. Plus, evidence has shown that the Christian population over in the Middle East has been far more persecuted by the Muslims than by the Jews, so I think the Christians in Israel are safer there with the current government than if the Muslims were in power.
 

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Tashah said:
Let me in turn be perfectly frank. Out of a whole globe of available candidates, you only see fit to explicitly single out Israel for indictment and castigation. Mistreatment of people? Perhaps you should attend to your own messy house before throwing your incriminating stones. Do these examples ring any alarm bells? Native Indians. African Slavery. Mexico and Central America. Mormons. Resource exploitation. Gunboat diplomacy. McCarthyism. Japanese internment. Guantanimo. Abu Gharaib. CIA renditions. Iraq.

Per your ideology of a non-violent global rehabilitation ... this scenario can only work if EVERYONE agrees to work within the confines of this parameter. Even India, the homeland of Gandhi, realizes that a viable ideology utilized in a domestic arena does not translate internationally... as there are too many global actors who embrace an expansionist agenda and revel in violence and bloodshed. Perhaps your utopian dream will someday become a reality. But until that horizon dawns upon mankind, those of us who cherish our homeland will do what we must to keep the barbarians from the gates.

Tashah you have a home in America.

Question 1) Would you be happy to return it to native American Indians if they asked for or took back their land from you by force even, just as you Jews have asked for or forced at times the Palestinians to give up their land/homes to you Jews ?

Question 2) Or is it a case of one law for you & another for Native American Indians, in other words... a kind of relative rather than absolute sliding scale of right & wrong & ethics, dependant on whether it's the interests of you & your tribal group being served, rather than a different tribal group ?

Question 3) Please explain the difference between Hitler occupying the Sudeten land with a massive influx of Germans on the grounds that there were already were some Germans there & you colonising Israel with a massive influx of Jews on the grounds that there were already some Jews there ?
 
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robin said:
Tashah you have a home in America.

Question 1) Would you be happy to return it to native American Indians if they asked for or took back their land from you by force even, just as you Jews have asked for or forced at times the Palestinians to give up their land/homes to you Jews ?

Question 2) Or is it a case of one law for you & another for Native American Indians, in other words... a kind of relative rather than absolute sliding scale of right & wrong & ethics, dependant on whether it's the interests of you & your tribal group being served, rather than a different tribal group ?

Question 3) Please explain the difference between Hitler occupying the Sudeten land with a massive influx of Germans on the grounds that there were already were some Germans there & you colonising Israel with a massive influx of Jews on the grounds that there were already some Jews there ?
Robin, it was Europeans (yes, YOU guys) that came here in the first place.
 
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Gandhi>Bush said:
This war creates death. This war creates hatred. This war creates radicals.

It is time for a new approach.

The Peace Corps was founded in 1961 as a way to fight communism in the third world. Each member was an "ambassador of freedom" representing America. I believe the Peace Corps to be a vital tool in the nonviolent campaign against the hatred of the Islamic world.

Liberating peoples? Great idea. Just stop blowing things up, and stop shooting people. You want to free someone? Good. Free Palestine. Free Chechnya. The political power in America could do much for both of these wills.

Fund moderate and pro-American Islamic groups.

If a country needs aid, give it to them. Offer more than money. Offer food. Offer feet on the ground.

Bin Laden's letter to America: Respond to it. Any propaganda at all: Respond to it. To beat the lies of an enemy you must clarify the problem and then ask his people to choose. If you are truly doing the right thing and the problem is brought to perfect clarity, people will always choose to do the right thing.

This a wholy new threat than anything America or any country has seen in it's history. The problem is not bin Laden. The problem is not terrorism. The problem is not terrorists. The problem is hatred and that is what we must solve.
Peace Corps was a great idea, however, I have the feeling that the terrorists would take Peace Corps volunteers hostage and chop off their heads.
 

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George_Washington said:
Robin, it was Europeans (yes, YOU guys) that came here in the first place.
GW I'm not prone to tribalism so I dont' see how that makes any difference. Whats wrong is wrong.
a) My view is not coloured by whether something may have originated from the same locality on earth as my mother happened to be in when she gave birth to me.
b) I am not my ancestors or forefathers. I am me.
c) If they did wrong then I say they did wrong then because I'm not a tribalisitc jingoist & I can say clearly they did do wrong against the natives of N America. Besides.. by the time the main genocide & land theft from the Indians occurred it was done by individuals that by that post War of Independance time, had labelled themselves as 'Americans' in other words to be of the white North American tribe, as you pressumably label yourself.
So there you go, if you want to reduce this to the level of a bun fight based on nationalistic generalisations, then it was you guys that mistreated the Indians not us :mrgreen:
 
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Did the Jews not have to go on a killing spree to take Israel in the first place after they left Egypt?
 
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