Non-separation of church and State.

Closer said:

Rubbish. What referred to is the fact that the establishment clause didn't apply to the state govts, it only applied to to the the Federal govt. Many of the former colonies kept their established sects when they became states. Demographic changes led to their being gradually dis-established, the last being Massachusetts, in 1834 or so, not by any Supreme Court decree.I could care less about your rant; like the other spammers who keep quoting me and posting rubbish, nothing I said is debatable, it's part of the historical record so quit making fools of yourselves over and over and over again. You should sue whatever school system failed to educate you on the basics.

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They may have kept their sects but they didn't fund them or give them special legal status. So you can keep your little bolded fact close to your little well educated heart and think how nice it is to be right. Nobody cares just so long as the threat of the feds taking away tax exemption keeps the state from establishing tax free segregated church schools or giving any particular religion special standing. There, feeling better?

Closer said:

I 'isolated' Jefferson because some people here seem to think he dictated everything to every American of his day; he didn't. As for his and everybody' else's name dropping when writing their arguments for whatever, they are no more meaningful than modern pols' claims today; they use what ever they had to try and win points. Philosophy was just a parlor game for them; they did not carry over all those high minded thoughts and practice them in their everyday lives.

Forrest McDonald's book on Jefferson, The Presidency Of Thomas Jefferson, goes into details on his real influences, and the fact that he quoted from The Craftsman pamphlets far more than the 'Enlightenment' sophists. Most of the Founders were not 'Deists' or atheists,nor were they slaves to philosophical abstractions, regardless of their political rhetoric. Most states kept the same Houses of govt. they had as colonies, along with the legal systems.

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Nothing you are saying contradicts what my original post stated... although you do riddle your posts with attempts at contempt.

Combine the two and it starts painting a picture of who authored the posts.

weaver2 said:

So why aren't all those Southern states declaring a state religion and funding segregated church schools?

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He spouts a lot in an arrogant fashion, declaring them to be fact, while both you and I supplied sourced facts... *shrugs*

Albert Raley said:

I don’t think there should be a separation. Our country was founded on religion. It would help unite our country as well as restore morals and values.

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Goldwater warned of what would happen when the preachers took over his party. Back when conservatives were, well, conservative.

Closer said:

I didn't realize an 1803 Treaty suddenly becomes relevant to the Constitutional Convention in 1789. Thanks for that little known fact. Again your cite is merely Jefferson's opinion, and disregards the rest of the the people in the United States,who also had opinions, ones that differ from your agenda, which is why you never cite them.

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LOL Gets better... Jefferson is the End All for an argument that you support and Jefferson is "merely an opinion" when used against you.

ataraxia said:

It was never intended to be a Christian nation. They have had enough of religion being used as a political club to beat everyone else over the head with.

“ Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?"
-James Madison

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Same for the constitution. No one wants to live under the dictates of either, but boy howdy they both make wonderful instruments with which to bludgeon any who disagree.

Bodhisattva said:

LOL Gets better... Jefferson is the End All for an argument that you support and Jefferson is "merely an opinion" when used against you.

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I'm sorry, I thought you were an adult. My bad. I never use him as a 'be all and end all', as I pointed out, but whatever makes you trolls happy.

babylonrumble said:

Goldwater warned of what would happen when the preachers took over his party. Back when conservatives were, well, conservative.

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Yes. The fear of a lot of reasonably honest people getting elected was then and still is a terrifying nightmare for career politicians.

Closer said:

I'm sorry, I thought you were an adult. My bad. I never use him as a 'be all and end all', as I pointed out, but whatever makes you trolls happy.

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Right. I made a generic point that pretty much covered it but you decided to come at me anyway, toss in a little insult, move the goal posts, insist your facts refute my facts and then turn around and act indignant because I give you some attitude. LOL

...and insulting members is against the Rules.

weaver2 said:

They may have kept their sects but they didn't fund them or give them special legal status. So you can keep your little bolded fact close to your little well educated heart and think how nice it is to be right. Nobody cares just so long as the threat of the feds taking away tax exemption keeps the state from establishing tax free segregated church schools or giving any particular religion special standing. There, feeling better?

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Wrong, they had powers to levy taxes and determine school curriculum, and received subsidies on top of that. So you can keep your ignorance or just read up on issues before sniveling on the innernetz aout getting correct information.

Closer said:

Wrong, they had powers to levy taxes and determine school curriculum, and received subsidies on top of that. So you can keep your ignorance or just read up on issues before sniveling on the innernetz aout getting correct information.

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States had the power to levy taxes etc for a while after the US Constitution was signed but eventually they had to write constitutions that agreed with the US Constitution. The state of Virginia continued to tax churches. They might have gotten away with it but they beat up one too many Baptist preachers advocating for no taxes on churches which made every body mad and they had to ban church taxes.

weaver2 said:

States had the power to levy taxes etc for a while after the US Constitution was signed but eventually they had to write constitutions that agreed with the US Constitution. The state of Virginia continued to tax churches. They might have gotten away with it but they beat up one too many Baptist preachers advocating for no taxes on churches which made every body mad and they had to ban church taxes.

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No, demographic changes caused them to change their state laws due to immigration, not the Constitution. Most of the colonies were founded by religious dissenters; the Constitution would have been impossible to pass if the Federal govt. had been granted the power to establish a state favored sect. Nobody cared about Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists at that time, there weren't enough of them to matter.

Closer said:

Wrong, they had powers to levy taxes and determine school curriculum, and received subsidies on top of that. So you can keep your ignorance or just read up on issues before sniveling on the innernetz aout getting correct information.

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The Library of Congress has some good information on the subject of churches and taxes during the early years of the nation - Religion and the State Governments

Doing business on a for-profit basis should preclude any standing regarding the morals of Religion in public accommodation.

Closer said:

I didn't realize an 1803 Treaty suddenly becomes relevant to the Constitutional Convention in 1789. Thanks for that little known fact. Again your cite is merely Jefferson's opinion, and disregards the rest of the the people in the United States,who also had opinions, ones that differ from your agenda, which is why you never cite them.

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The Treaty of Tripoli was ratified in 1797 by President Adams. It wasn't 1803 and it wasn't Jefferson, but thanks for showing everyone how little you know about American history and the US Constitution.

It is also not anyone's opinion, but rather the Supreme Law of the Land. What the US says via that treaty is that Christianity had absolutely nothing to do with the founding of the nation, and that has as much legal weight as the Bill of Rights. Which would supersede anything contrary that the States may attempt to employ. It isn't just a suggestion or anyone's opinion. The US is intentionally secular by highest law in the land.

Albert Raley said:

I don’t think there should be a separation. Our country was founded on religion. It would help unite our country as well as restore morals and values.

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Separation as define just protects thoughts who worship from being discriminated against, from 1789 to date.

C MAN said:

Separation as define just protects thoughts who worship from being discriminated against, from 1789 to date.

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What is that supposed to mean?

C MAN said:

Separation as define just protects thoughts who worship from being discriminated against, from 1789 to date.

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It goes, and has always gone, both ways: Worshippers should not feel their particular religion gives them any particular advantage or ability to push their agenda over others in the public sphere. In return, government will not interfere with what or who they choose to worship in the privacy of their home and church- as long as they keep it there. It's a compromise that's worked out well so far.

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

"Mingling religion with politics may be disavowed and reprobated by every inhabitant of America...All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish (Muslim), appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
-Thomas Payne

"The experience of the United States is a happy disproof of the error so long rooted in the unenlightened minds of well-meaning Christians, as well as in the corrupt hearts of persecuting usurpers, that without a legal incorporation of religious and civil polity, neither could be supported. A mutual independence is found most friendly to practical Religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity."
-James Madison

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? "
-James Madison

ataraxia said:

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? "
-James Madison

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I'll add these two quotes from some idiot named Tom Jefferson. He is kinds important in the matters of the Constition and the Bill of Rights.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.


I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.


Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

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As to the invocation of Jefferson, we know that when he and James Madison first proposed the Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom (the frame and basis of the later First Amendment to the Constitution) in 1779, the preamble began, “Well aware that Almighty God hath created the mind free.” Patrick Henry and other devout Christians attempted to substitute the words “Jesus Christ” for “Almighty God” in this opening passage and were overwhelmingly voted down. This vote was interpreted by Jefferson to mean that Virginia’s representatives wanted the law “to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahomedan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination.”

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Some twit named James Madison was sort of wordy on the subject of church and state separation.

In the text, Madison methodically presents the case as to why Virginians should not be compelled to finance Christianity. It includes barrages such as this:

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. Enquire of the Teachers of Christianity for the ages in which it appeared in its greatest lustre; those of every sect, point to the ages prior to its incorporation with Civil policy.

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Following Locke, Madison argued that to promote any religion was outside the proper scope of limited government. Even for Virginia’s government to sponsor all Christian religions, as Henry proposed, would establish a dangerous precedent, for “Who does not see that the same authority, which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?” Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia (1785) echoes a similar conviction: “The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say that there or twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

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And in 1786, the Virginia legislature snuffed out the last vestiges of the state’s religious establishment by passing Jefferson’s bill for religious freedom. It provided that “…no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever…nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.”

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Lisa said:

I'll add these two quotes from some idiot named Tom Jefferson. He is kinds important in the matters of the Constition and the Bill of Rights.

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Not really. Thomas Jefferson had absolutely no hand in the drafting the US Constitution, and never attended the Constitutional Convention from May to September 1787. He was in France at the time. He also had no hand in drafting the Bill of Rights, although his old writings for the State of Virginia were used when writing the First Amendment, as was James Madison's "Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments" written in 1785.

Lisa said:

Some twit named James Madison was sort of wordy on the subject of church and state separation.

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At least Madison made significant contributions to the US Constitution, which is more than can be said about Jefferson.

Glitch said:

Not really. Thomas Jefferson had absolutely no hand in the drafting the US Constitution, and never attended the Constitutional Convention from May to September 1787. He was in France at the time. He also had no hand in drafting the Bill of Rights, although his old writings for the State of Virginia were used when writing the First Amendment, as was James Madison's "Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments" written in 1785.


At least Madison made significant contributions to the US Constitution, which is more than can be said about Jefferson.

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The Bill of Rights exists because of Jeffersons' idea that we as citizens needed direct protection from government tyranny, despite the fact that he didn't have a direct hand in writing it.

So, the Constitution's framers heeded Thomas Jefferson who argued: "A bill of rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on earth, general or particular, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference."

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Lisa said:

The Bill of Rights exists because of Jeffersons' idea that we as citizens needed direct protection from government tyranny, despite the fact that he didn't have a direct hand in writing it.

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No it doesn't. The Bill of Rights exist because of James Madison, George Mason, Patrick Henry, and numerous others, but not Jefferson.

What part of "he was in France at the time" were you not able to comprehend? You are erroneously attributing things to Jefferson with which he had absolutely no involvement. Read some history, instead of just quotations, and get a clue.

Glitch said:

No it doesn't. The Bill of Rights exist because of James Madison, George Mason, Patrick Henry, and numerous others, but not Jefferson.

What part of "he was in France at the time" were you not able to comprehend? You are erroneously attributing things to Jefferson with which he had absolutely no involvement. Read some history, instead of just quotations, and get a clue.

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This letter from Jefferson to James Madison says that you are very wrong. You should write a letter to the Library of Congress and inform them that they are in error.

Almost immediately after beginning to meet in 1789, the first Congress, led by James Madison, began to consider amendments to the Constitution proposed by the state ratifying conventions. George Washington and Madison had personally pledged to consider amendments because they realized that some amendments would be necessary to reduce pressure for a second constitutional convention that might drastically alter and weaken the new federal government. Fastening on Anti-Federalist criticisms that the Constitution lacked a clear articulation of guaranteed rights, Madison proposed amendments that emphasized the rights of individuals rather than the rights of states， an ingenious move that led to cries that these amendments—now known as the “Bill of Rights”—were a mere diversion.

"I will now add what I do not like. First the omission of a bill of rights. . . ."

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Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, December 20, 1787

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Lisa said:

This letter from Jefferson to James Madison says that you are very wrong. You should write a letter to the Library of Congress and inform them that they are in error.

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They aren't in error. You are, as usual.

Not a single amendment from the Bill of Rights originated from Jefferson. As I stated previously, his earlier works in Virginia were used to form the First Amendment, but otherwise Jefferson had absolutely nothing to do with the Bill of Rights. He never proposed any and he never voted for any. He wrote letters to Madison from France to keep informed during the Constitutional Convention, but had absolutely no input on any provision in the US Constitution, before it was passed or afterwards.

Saying otherwise is a flat-out lie, but expected from the uneducated mentally-deranged anti-American left.

Albert Raley said:

I don’t think there should be a separation. Our country was founded on religion. It would help unite our country as well as restore morals and values.

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How would a conjoining of church and state help unite our country? There are at least 100 different sects in this country. How would you decide which sect the state would follow. What would the people in the other 99 sects do? Look at what the Catholic Church and the Evangelical Churches have brought us. How exactly would they improve out morals and values.

Have you thought this through?